Some Observations From a Return Player

[Logrin Parr]

First and foremost I'd like to say that the new client is in many ways as much of an improvement as the last one was over the first one. Great job on the VBU guys, the hard work certainly shows.

Having finally convinced my aging laptop to run illarion again, I've a few suggestions after a long hiatus.

First and foremost I'd like to point out the 'gap' in available funds between starting crafters vs. warriors. While I struggled to craft/sell enough goods to earn a measly 20 silver for a hatchet for my tailor the warrior hardly had any such trouble. The combination of explorer's stones and an abundance of quests meant that he was both well equipped and sitting at well over 100 silver within a few hours of killing rats/wildlife for NPCs. I have a few thoughts to remedy this...

1. NPC goods should be both affordable for new players and bottom rung quality -

This would ensure a starting crafter could quickly buy whatever he or she needs, but that it would be desirable to buy/make player crafted tools. Bad quality and low durability would mean that cheap picks, hatchets, needles, etc both need to be replaced regularly and cause their resulting crafts to turn out worse.

2. With the first suggestion in mind character creation should allocate learning points, so that players can focus on whatever skills they want from the very start.

Not just pre-made packages. If someone wants to put a few points in everything or thirty levels into a single skill we should let them. It would certainly be a welcome 'bump' for new characters.

3. Quality/Durability should effect how much NPCs will be willing to buy something for, and player attributes should have an impact on the quality of the completed craft. (If they don't already)

I for one think it's perfectly reasonable that, should a blacksmith not wish to be a miner the be able to break even by buying ore/ingots and selling finished weapons/armor, it's realistic at the very least. A skilled crafter might be able to turn a modest profit this way as their skill rises. It would also mean that fighters wouldn't end up swimming in coin from the busted, barely whole items they loot off enemies (Though it would still be profitable)

4. All recipes should be unlocked from the start. With crafting skill only effecting the quality/chance of failure--as well as a NEW parameter.

Right from the get go you should be able to craft anything, should you have the skill/materials. You might not make it well--or even succeed--but that's your risk to take. To balance this, and add further incentive for players to purchase items from dedicated crafters I'd also suggest a new mechanic, for lack of a better term we can call it Overcrafting for now. As a player's skill rises they'd exceed the required skill to produce things, and the larger the gap the better chance they'd have to 'Overcraft' an item. Should this happen a little window pops up where players choose to add a small but desirable bonus to the craft otherwise unobtainable--dependent upon the type of item in question. (No rabbit stew with +5 slashing weapons for example) High enough perception should let laymen see these bonuses, so that low perception means you might get swindled!

5. Dedicated Skills

While I know the prevailing school of thought is not to shoe-horn players into class roles I've a suggestion for those willing to exchange freedom of skill progression for a slight 'edge' on jacks-of-all trades. On character creation you should be able to 'Dedicate' you character to a skill, giving it a small boost to starting AND max level. The downside being that you are REQUIRED to neglect a skill in exchange, lowering its max potential and growth rate. (Or better yet, meaning it can't grow. A good option for warriors that might need to do something to survive--ie. fish, cook--but would prefer being terrible at it) While this could lead to some min-maxing they'd also be pigeon holing themselves into the (desirable) outcome of reliance on other characters. Which is a very good thing.

That's all the ideas I could roll out before having to head into work. I've more though, expect to see them crop up.

[Uhuru]

This proposal http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... 94&t=38915 was written regarding people being able to select skill upon character creation a little while back... it seems relevant to point:

2. With the first suggestion in mind character creation should allocate learning points, so that players can focus on whatever skills they want from the very start.

I am very much in favor of implementing something in regards to this. I still do not believe warriors/hunters wish to know how to cook or will ever use such a skill and such precious points are wasted at start up. The gift of skill points at start up cannot and should not ever go to waste.

[Mephistopheles]

I like most of your proposal but I do want to say the crafter vs warrior money gain is always a topic for discussion.

Certain crafters at mid or high level could make an exponential ammount of coin. It takes a bit of effort to figure out what sells best for each craft but there is hardly any comparison in how much the two make.

Most warriors seem well off at first until they realize they have repairs, and the monsters that pay-kill. Nobody wants to walk around and kill lv 3-6 monsters for coin, they do it for training, fun, or roleplay. All successful warrior chars take up side craft ie usually a gathering craft to support a crafter they like.

Just my two sense. I actually started my warrior /alchemist on mining and brick firing. Now I've intentions of at least doing one or two crafts to support other combat based chars.

[Logrin Parr]

As far repairs go, I'd honestly say that deserves to be relatively inexpensive in towns as well--with the caveat that having an NPC repair your gear will degrade the overall quality more than having a player take care of it. And of course repairing higher-end gear should be more expensive than bottom of the barrel starting weapons/armor. This way freshly minted characters needn't worry so much about longevity (They'll be trading up as they do quest/slay beasties) but by the time they've bought or acquired the best gear they can, they'll want to have a professional (ie. player) repair it.

As for taking up a side craft to support your warrior. I don't thing it being required is a sound design choice. The -option- of taking up a side craft, yes. More power to you I say. But with the implementation of the above I'd think combat characters could manage just fine.

As for warriors not making as much as crafters in the long run.....they shouldn't. That's the whole point of being a merchant after all. The first suggestions were mostly a means by which the early game might be improved. Though with the addition of dedicated/neglected skills it would be entirely possible to make a 'pure-warrior' or 'pure-crafter', should a player wish to.

[Logrin Parr]

Double Post!

A few more additional proposals.

* I remember when lizardmen could fish with their bare hands, which I thought was a nice bit of thematic flavor. I'd honestly suggest rather than it being removed for having been an advantage over other characters that each race get a minor bonus for the sake of racial flavor.

*Lizardmen: Can fish barehanded (But don't get anything but fish doing so, no maps!) and have a very slight resistance to poison
*Humans: A very minor boost to the rate at which they learn all skills
*Orcs: Slightly less severe 'death' penalties. (I.E. Less damage to equipment and return to fighting shape sooner)
*Dwarves: Items degrade slightly slower, slightly higher carrying capacity
*Halflings: Larger hunger bars. Letting them eat more and go longer between meals
*Elves: Gather herbs and pick fruits quicker. Potions are slightly more effective on them (I.E. Healing potions heal a little better, mana potions fill a little more magic...beer gets them drunk faster, etc.)

Another topic I'd like to discuss would be life, death and injury within illarion. Certainly permadeath is a touchy subject for roleplaying games, especially ones where leveling one's skills is a less than trivial affair. That said I think I've a suggestion worth considering.
*Currently death is cheap. (It has consequences of course, this is more about death from a roleplay perspective) It creates this weird atmosphere where an exchange such as "Yeah, I cut off his head--he got better" is possible. A quick, simple remedy would be having characters merely be 'utterly defeated' when their HP is depleted, causing them to endure the following:
*The same death penalties as now
*A brief window of time spent unconscious (Black screen that tells players they've been knocked out) where their sprite is replaced by a prone depiction of their race/gender. Other players could access the unconscious body like a depot to bring up your paper doll, should they wish to take advantage of your state and rob you. To ensure this doesn't lead to a spree of vicious robberies players should be able to /surrender, allowing for this WITHOUT being beaten senseless
*When players 'wake up' they'd be given a grace period where enemies will ignore them so that they may flee

The above need not be taken with my following suggestion, but it bears consideration.
*If attacked by a player while unconscious. (Which the attacking player would need to confirm with a VERY serious looking prompt asking if they're sure they wish to kill this character) you suffer permanent death. Don't worry there's more to this suggestion. Upon dying your transported to a special area where you may access all items you've stored in depots (What you were carrying remains with your corpse) and sell them for their actual worth. A nearby vendor sells anything you might want to buy. Once you're satisfied with what your carrying on your person you step through a portal to be reincarnated.

Doing so lets you pick a new race, gender, name etc. etc.With the added benefit of letting you redistribute your acquired learning points, save for a small (5-10 percent?) loss for having died. This ensures that death isn't so much an end as a new beginning, undesirable but not and utter and unrecoverable loss. Certain GM quests could even come with the warning that participants risk permadeath by participating, should you want the newest 'big bad' to be taken seriously.

Back to the topic of races it couldn't hurt for there to be a few 'racial crafts'. Like weapons, armor or potions you don't have the option of learning without being an elf (for example) Just a thought.

[Logrin Parr]

Triple Post!

More transparency when it comes to game mechanics especially when it comes to character creation. Knowing precisely the negative and positive impact of their chosen stats as well as the bare minimum requirement for being a mage/druid would be a superb first step. T̶o̶o̶l̶t̶i̶p̶s̶ ̶i̶n̶f̶o̶r̶m̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶p̶l̶a̶y̶e̶r̶ ̶w̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶s̶k̶i̶l̶l̶s̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶g̶o̶v̶e̶r̶n̶e̶d̶ ̶b̶y̶ ̶w̶h̶i̶c̶h̶ ̶a̶t̶t̶r̶i̶b̶u̶t̶e̶s̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶a̶l̶s̶o̶ ̶s̶o̶r̶e̶l̶y̶ ̶m̶i̶s̶s̶e̶d̶,̶ ̶a̶s̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶w̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ ̶c̶e̶r̶t̶a̶i̶n̶l̶y̶ ̶e̶l̶i̶m̶i̶n̶a̶t̶e̶ ̶m̶u̶c̶h̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶g̶u̶e̶s̶s̶ ̶w̶o̶r̶k̶

Again, the free distribution of starting skill levels is leaps and bounds more robust a system than pre-made packages

The same could be said of equipment, maybe have starting gear selected within a certain price range? Maybe have equipment be free, but the more you take the worse quality it ends up being when you spawn?

If possible players should be able to edit the combat emotes that crop up from time to time. That way instead of a sea of scripted crit logs each party member would have something different and personal

Crafters should be able to change the name of their finish products and add a description--but only if they made it to begin with.

[Jupiter]

On lizards and fishing: That will come back one day.

[Estralis Seborian]

What browser do you use? There are attribute tool tips and you can also set your attributes freely.

[Logrin Parr]

On lizards and fishing: That will come back one day.

Glad to hear it! Though I still feel when it does the other races could use a small mechanical advantage of their own.

What browser do you use? There are attribute tool tips and you can also set your attributes freely.

That was a typo, my mistake. What I meant to say was the free distribution of the starting skill levels. Terribly sorry. Though I -did- miss the tooltip the first time around. What I mean by more transparency with the attributes however is informing players not just say "Perception effects your chance to hit" but by what margin.

[Jupiter]

On lizards and fishing: That will come back one day.

Glad to hear it! Though I still feel when it does the other races could use a small mechanical advantage of their own.

Yep. That is most likely the plan

[Logrin Parr]

I'd love to see the return of saving descriptions to F2-F6 and shift+F2-F6. Being able to save what's in the text field by holding Ctlr and pressing an F key was great. With that in mind I'd also suggest...

...special attacks. These could be special combat maneuvers that drain your yellow bar (or possibly have cooldown timers) that are unlocked as you progress in skill with weapons and armor. Let me explain a bit more in depth with an example.

Let's say you're pretty skilled with stabbing weapons and have unlocked a backstab. This would be a rather weak attack with a high damage modifier for attacking a target from behind. To use it you'd type #backstab and--assuming you're wielding an appropriate weapon--execute the combat maneuver. Perhaps players could choose one perk or another upon reaching certain skill levels, further diversifying fighters from one another. Below are some examples:

Skill name / Governing Skill / Required weapon or armor / Effect

#Strikethrough - Stabbing weapons - Two-handed stabbing weapon - Briefly strike anyone behind the target as well with your attacks
or
#Backstab - Stabbing weapons - One handed stabbing weapon - A deadly single target blow so long as you hit them from behind

#Impale - Stabbing weapons - Two-handed stabbing weapon - Rushes forward several squares and pins a foe in place, keeping them from moving until the effect wears off
or
#Butcher - Stabbing weapons - One handed stabbing weapon - Maim your foe with a strike that makes them bleed, doing damage over time

#Sprint - Light armor - Wearing three pieces or more light armor - A short burst of speed for dashing in or out of danger
or
#Hardtoswat - Light armor - Wearing three pieces or more light armor - Brief reduction in enemy chance-to-hit

#Inconspicuous - Light armor - Wearing three pieces or more light armor - Lie in ambush or hide from powerful foes, causing you to remain invisible so long as foes fail a perception check that's harder the further away from you they are.
or
#Acrobat - Light armor - Wearing three pieces or more light armor - Leap a short distance, sailing over enemies and obstacles to reach your destination

#Feint - Slashing weapons - One handed slashing weapon - Briefly improve your own chance to hit
or
#Halfsword - Slashing weapons - Two handed slashing weapon - Changes weapon damage to piercing (But still uses your slashing weapons skill) for a short time

#Flurry - Slashing weaponss - One handed slashing weapon - Briefly increases attack speed but reduces chance to hit
or
#PommelStrike - Slashing weapons - Two handed slashing weapon - Changes weapon damage to bashing (But still uses your slashing weapons skill) for a short time

#Crowdcontrol - Medium armor - Three pieces or more medium armor - Increases your chance to parry for a short while based on the amount of adjacent foes
or
#Secondwind - Medium armor - Three pieces or more medium armor - Instantly restores some health, but the effect only lasts for sixty seconds, possibly 'ghosting' when it wears off.

#Valor - Medium armor - Three pieces or more medium armor - Increase your attack speed for a short while based on the amount of adjacent foes
or
#Shakeitoff - Medium armor - Three pieces or more medium armor - Instantly recover from poison, bleeding or being pinned in place (Possibly -any- negative status effect except death sickness)

#Gutshot - Blunt weapons - One handed blunt weapon - A stomach wrenching strike that damages the hunger bar
or
#Anvilblow - Blunt weapons - Two handed blunt weapon - A powerful overhead blow that does more damage if it's parried

#Onslaught - Blunt weapons- One handed blunt weapon - Briefly gain attack speed for each successful strike but lose attack speed for every missed or parried blow
or
#Obliteration - Blunt weapons- Two handed blunt weapon - Just a very, very powerful blow.

#Swordeater - Heavy armor - Three pieces heavy armor or more - Increases armor value as you get hit for sixty seconds
or
#Noplacefordeathtoenter - Heavy armor - Three pieces heavy armor or more - Briefly reduce your chance to be critically hit to zero

#Attrition - Heavy armor - Three pieces heavy armor or more - Briefly attack for reduced damage/chance to hit any enemy that manages to hit you
or
#Impervious - Heavy armor - Three pieces heavy armor or more - Very very briefly take no damage from any source whatsoever.

#Subdue - Unarmed - Barehanded - Neither you or the target can move, attack or parry for several seconds.
or
#Disarm - Unarmed - Barehanded - Knocks your opponents weapon into their backpack, belt or ground (Checked in that order)

#Eyegouge - Unarmed - Barehanded - Briefly blinds your target Reducing chance to hit greatly and in the case of other players turns the screen black
or
#Throatstrike - Unarmed - Barehanded - For about sixty seconds the character can't speak. Also silences magic, greatly increasing its chance to fail

#shieldwall - Parry - Shield - Passively increases your defense for being within two tiles another player, so long as you're both attacking the same target.
or
#Demoralize - Parry - Any weapon - Briefly reduce your attacker's speed for each successful parry

#Impregnable - Parry - Shield - Passively increases your armor value for having a shield equipped
or
#Laststand - Parry - Any weapon - Briefly increases your chance to parry in proportion to how little health you have remaining

#Longshot - Distance weapons - any distance weapon - Briefly increase your maximum range
or
#Pointblank - Distance weapons - any distance weapon - Briefly removes any penalty for shooting an adjacent foe, offering bonus damage instead

#Heartseeker - Distance weapons - any distance weapon - An assassination technique that stops health regeneration for a time
or
#Hobble - Distance weapons - any distance weapon - Pins the target in place briefly

[Mr.Oldie]

How about bringing the whole starter package thing into the game?
Swimming ashore with nothing but a pants and shirt on with some strange coins, and at the end the halfling in exchange for the strange coins offers somethings to take along as you enter the factions; RPing it as showing you how to use it.

**Light**//all things should be lvl 10//

• Light Helm ( +2 Light armour )
• Light Armour ( +2 Light armour )
• Light Greaves ( +2 Light armour )
• Light Boots ( +2 Light armour )
• Light Gloves ( +2 Light armour )

**Medium**//all things should be lvl 10//

• Medium Helm ( +2 Medium armour )
• Medium Armour ( +2 Medium armour )
• Medium Greaves ( +2 Medium armour )
• Medium Boots ( +2 Medium armour )
• Medium Gloves ( +2 Medium armour )

**Heavy**//all things should be lvl 10//

• Heavy Helm ( +2 Heavy armour )
• Heavy Armour ( +2 Heavy armour )
• Heavy Greaves ( +2 Heavy armour )
• Heavy Boots ( +2 Heavy armour )
• Heavy Gloves ( +2 Heavy armour )

**One handed**//wooden or training weapons are lvl 0 the rest lvl 10//

• Wooden dagger, Dagger ( +5 Stabbing)
• Wooden Sword, Sword ( +5 Slashing)
• Wooden Club, Mace ( +5 Blunt)

**Two Handed**

• Wooden Spear, Spear ( +5 Stabbing)
• Training Axe, Axe ( +5 Slashing) //lvl0 battle axe should be changed to two handed training if its not already//
• Training Staff, Staff ( +5 Blunt)//walking stick as training staff?//

• Shield, Cloak ( +10 Parry )// lvl 10shield,low priced cloak would do//

**Tools**

• Fishing rod ( +5 Fishing)
• Pickaxe ( +2 Mining)
• Hatchet ( +2 Woodcutting)
• Shovel ( +2 Mining)
• Scythe ( +2 Farming)
• Sickle ( +2 Herblore)
• Scissors ( +2 Peasantry)//there was a talk about separating a gathering skill for tailoring as Peasantry so that or whatever the gathering skill name for it is. //

• Tongs ( +2 Gem cutting)
• Cruicible Pincers ( +1 Smithing)
• Saw ( +1 Carpentry)
• Flail ( +1 Farming)
• Dyeing rod ( +1 Tailoring)
• Pestle ( +1 Tailoring)

• Hammer ( +2 Smithing)
• Finesmithing Hammer ( +2 Goldsmithing)
• Plane ( +2 Carpentry)
• Carving tools ( +1 Carpentry)
• Needle ( +2 Tailoring)
• Glassblowing pipe ( +2 Glass Blowing)
• Parchment ( +2 Alchemy)

//all items under this will be 1 coin where as the rest above will be 2 coins each//
**Randomn usables**

• Horn ( +10 Bard of that Instrument)
• Panpipe ( +10 Bard of that Instrument)
• Flute ( +10 Bard of that Instrument)
• Drum ( +10 Bard of that Instrument)
• Lute ( +10 Bard of that Instrument)
• Harp ( +10 Bard of that Instrument)
• 5 bread, 5 ham
• 5 Bucket
• 5 Wooden shovel
• 1 bag, 4 wicker basket, Quill
• 10 silvers

I think i fairly balanced it. Keeping in mind that character is made concentrating on a single set the total amount of strange coins = 20
A single item for the specified amount of strange coin except where an amount of item is given.
A code should be written preventing buying of any item that will increase the item of that respective skill above 10.

[Logrin Parr]

I do certainly like the idea of bringing character creation into the game itself in general, as well as being able to pick and choose your starting gear on the tutorial island. As far as starting skills go however I -do- think that should a player desire they should be able to invest all of their points in one skill.

[Mr.Oldie]

with the thing i suggeted above thats what i meant...
Oh wasnt i clear about that?
picking the items will up the skills written in the ()

[Kamilar]

I rather like that the crafting tutorial has shifted off of Noobia and is now in the game proper. This gets players into the game faster and allows the characters to keep the free tools and the skills they gain while practicing. I think that's the single best feature of the VBU.

I like the idea of being able to allocate some skill points on character creation. Starting out as a brainless blob has always seemed a little bit strange to me. I still favor the idea of being able to turn some skills off yet still perform those tasks but more as a way to give people a reason to log in when there's no one else playing. Lowering item quality for crafts or quantity for resource gathering would be a reasonable way to balance it out.

[Logrin Parr]

Too true. I've always thought that skilling should be much -much- faster than it is now, but without any sort of check to keep people from learning everything I don't see that happening.

Though I suppose if attributes were even -more- important to learning...

[Logrin Parr]

*Some animals should have such low HP that even a non-combat oriented character could kill them in one or two hits, namely chicken, pigs, sheep, rabbits, ect. It's a bit much too ask a cook to pick up even a middling degree of weapon skill in my opinion.


*Next is a bit of a doozy, as it's my thoughts on a possible priest system. The main points being:
1. It should feel different from magic/druidism
2. Demand priests adhere to their chosen Gods will
3. Make the choice of your Deity important

1. I've been mulling this over a bit and I don't think Priests should use a mana system at all. Instead, priests expend 'favor' with their chosen God any time they work miracles, with more impressive feats of Thaumaturgy consuming more of their reserve. Unlike mana or health, favor DEPLETES over time, like hunger and the only way to gain more is to perform acts your chosen God appreciates (Like killing for Moshran), praying at their altar (Once per day) or making appropriate offerings. Examples below:

Nargùn - As God of Chaos Nargùn is unpredictable, his priest's favor rises and falls on a whim, nearly irregardless of their actions.
Elara - Is the Goddess of wisdom, and greatly appreciates the pursuit of knowledge. Priests can earn favor by exploring the world, learning new names, reading new books (Or writing them), and of course progressing in skill levels.
Adron - As could be expected of the God of Festivities and Wine Adron appreciates when his priests spend time in Taverns or consume his favored drink. Instruments can also curry his favor, so long as they're played well.
Oldra - As Goddess of Life and Fertility Oldra only allows women to work miracles in her name, bestowing upon them favor for the care of crops and animals or time spent preparing hearty meals.
Cherga - Merciless Cherga does not care for your worship
Malachin - As God of Battle and Hunting priests of Malachin earn favor by testing their mettle in honorable combat, lingering in the majesty of far flung forests or mountains and in the slaying of creatures He considers 'game' or deserving of justice.
Irmorom - The God of Trade and Craftsmanship bestows his favor to priests that buy, sell or craft--caring much more for expensive trades and high-end crafts
Sirani - Perhaps the most accepting of the Divines the Goddess of Love and Pleasure appreciates priests that seek peace, love and harmony in this world. Unlike the others she steadily supplies her priests with favor over time
Zhambra - God of Friendship and Loyalty (I haven't thought of a good one for this yet. Don't really want to make it the same as Malachin)
Ronagan - God of Thieves and Shadows (I think we need a system for stealing/sneaking before this guy gets what he deserves--and for that we'll need to discuss housing--I have some ideas)
Moshran - The Bone Lord has no love for weak followers, deigning to grant favor only for killing--especially when the victim is another player.

2. You should lose a large sum of favor for doing things your God dislikes, such as a follower of Moshran showing weakness (Being beaten in combat or sent to the cross, going too long without killing something/someone) or a follower of Oldra resorting to violence. This would force players to adhere to the whims of their chosen higher power--or should they abandon their God/Prove unworthy suffer through a long and terrible penance.

3. Each God should provide a different assortment of miracles, each of which consumes not only a portion of the priest's stored favor but items symbolic to the ritual as well. As your skill level rises (Let's just call the skill Thaumaturgy for now) you gain knowledge of more demanding rituals to perform. I've got a few ideas, but they'll have to wait until morning.

[maryday]

Chergas`mercy is infinite.
Yet unlike other deities, she NEVER even accepts the smallest lie...

In general i like your proposals on a Priest System.
Favor should not deplete over time. Most gods, beside Adron, Sirani and especially Cherga tend to not forget.
If "forgetting" is a category that applies to gods, at all.

From my point of view any system of Priest Magic, selfspoken including sacrifices, might first have to deal with the current issue on "Blood Magic".
A Priest dedicates her or his life to a god, and there is no worthier sacrifice then the OWN life.

So far.
Have fun.


PS: Cooks take care of the warm hearth, cooking, and prefer to let the hunting be done by hunters.
Hunters on the other hand, have to know how to take care for themselves, out in the wildy, where it is cold and the dogs are plenty.

[Logrin Parr]

The idea of favor depleting isn't so much that the Gods are forgetting your deeds as it is them becoming unsatisfied with you erring from their preferred tasks. Sirani's love is infinite and beyond mortal reckoning for instance--so she gives favor constantly--Moshran on the other hand is likely to bore of his mortal playthings almost as soon as they stop killing.