Illarion.org

Okay, I'm just throwing some thoughts out there, since I went on a little rant the other day on teamspeak Would love to hear what other people think about this.

This is the problematic:

* We have 3 major cities, but obviously not enough players to actually keep them busy.
* You can use portals to travel to other towns, but the cost of 10 silver one way is too much for both new characters + pure roleplaying characters
* You can’t travel anywhere by foot because monster spawns make it impossible

I feel that we want to promote roleplay in Illarion, but the three points above make it hard to achieve that. Sure, for most older players 10 silber is nothing, I get that. But what about new players & new characters who can’t afford jumping to the next town in the hopes someone is there to play with? What about pure roleplaying characters, that people play for fun, rather than grinding away skills ingame to make money?
It just seems like such an unfortunate combination of things. If at least the pathways between towns would be safe, so one could travel by foot, without having to pay 10 silber, then that would be great. I think PO Alytys is a great example (I hope you don’t mind <3) … she has very little time to play Illarion as it is. If she does play, she would rather spend her time roleplaying, than grinding to make money. But if her city is deserted at the time, or if there is another character in another town you would really like to see – well bad luck. You’re stuck with no one around you.

How do you guys see this?

Jen - you did read my thougts !
I really appreciate that you brought this up here. Its exactly the way you describe it.
There is another point I would like to bring up ( and this did really shock me )

You go IG and a message appears you payed X Silver and xx copper for a town you are not even registered or settled in ?! WTH ???
And it happened 2 times to Aleytys now - Even if I had the luck to met PO Uhuru who made an acceptable offer to Aleytys ( so she is able to earn some coins without going against her character )
it is slightly annoying if you have little time and want to role play as top priority.
Illarion is a special game to me but this system makes it hard for me to keep on going

It is very good that you bring up a thread like this - what can a developer do to improve interaction between player characters? We rarely get concrete suggestions except really obscure ones. The more concrete the suggestions, the easier they are to implement.

On the specific issues: If you pay taxes as outlaw, this is clearly a bug that should be reported on Mantis asap. It helps a lot if the character is named, the town that demanded the tax and also, the time when the character became outlaw and how. On the low player number, yes, we have to work on that. We defined a development milestone (http://illarion.org/mantis/view.php?id=9659) with top priority we need to achieve before Illarion can stand an external review by e.g. Let's Play youbtube channels. General promotion can be done any time, of course, but due to the (sad) fact that the ones who usually do significant promotion are exactly the same persons needed to improve the game and to reach the named milestone, promotion lags behind. Regarding the number of towns, keep in mind that on Gobaith, we had five major towns and half a dozen minor settlements. So, we already reduced that number by a good amount. The trinity of towns is meant to spark interesting events, if such events that involve all towns and their rivalry are lacking, please contact your local gamemaster .

On the teleporters, if you have concrete suggestions on them, feel free to name them. Of course, we cannot remove the cost for selected players. In fact, it is desired that we maximise the money players spend on the teleporters; such money sinks are vital for the game. However, this implies that the cost must not be too high so that no one uses the teleporters at all. To find the right balance is not easy. Ten silver coins are not that difficult to earn, but still, twenty silver coins for a complete journey is not cheap. Did you think about e.g. making a journey to the home town cost less? Or journeys to the Hemp Necktie being generally not as expensive? Or any other good idea? Keep in mind that there are also portal books. They are much more flexible and if you travel in a group, also not expensive.

It is not really feasible to remove all monsters from the wilderness so you can travel by foot. The map is designed to separate the towns by the wilderness. If there are concrete places that are way too dangerous in the wilderness, please report them as precisely as possible with coordinates (Say !what with your character), naming the monsters that are too dangerous and suggesting a replacement. Nevertheless, if it is a real problem to earn ten silver coins, we also have to take a look at the ways to make money. No, harvesting tons of honey or fireing useless bricks are not the preferred methods to make money in this game; but if there are no means to make money, we have to tweak the game a little. From my point of view, it is very easy to make money, but I know the ropes and new players might not know. So, any concrete suggestions are welcome!

I know, finding a balanced solution to this is tricky. Ich zermürb mir schon den Kopf darüber! (Don't know how to say that in English).
So far I couldn't come up with anything precice. Here are a few random ideas:

1. New characters travel for free for a certain period.
Pro: New characters don't need to worry about travel cost in the beginning until they picked up a craft
Con: Not a solution that helps roleplay characters

2. Traveling between your "Home Town" and the Hemp Necktie is for free.
Pro: People who looking for roleplay from different cities could 'find each other' at the Hemp Necktie. Might be interesting to have it as a tradiing post
Con: Even though that wouldn't entirely remove the money sink, it still would lower it alot. Maybe make up for it by making travel between towns more expensive?

3. Somehow make the pathway between the cities safe. I'm not saying remove all monster spawns, but yeah... no idea how that could be implemented
Pro: People can just walk from town to town.
Con: Hard to implement?

4. Getting more players <3
That's the long-term solution. I'm working on it! I've got a bet going with Bloodraven that we will have 50 players ingame at one point before the end of 2014. I gotta win this.


PS:
Extrem solution #5 (and my favourite): Scrap one of the towns
Let the dragons take one of the towns, make it inhabitable/hostile/give it to 'evil' characters. At least then players are distributed on two towns only. Then re-open it when we have an acceptable player count. Also.... awesome rp opportunity

I really like your ideas, except from #5.

I don't think anybody wants to change the town for such a reason since many have very good reasons to not live in the other towns.

I think scraping one of the towns would mean the loss of some players.

You know about the Ferry system? - Its at least as group a alternertive way to travel.

Anyway to the solution it would be also possible to give Travelbooks as quest reward by newbie quests.

Travelbooks cost 20 silver and how often you can use them ? Before the VBU it was only 1 time far as I remember.
I really be fond of Dji's solution - but make them accessible to new players aas a quest reward with a used up - let say 3/4 times. So they can look around and see where they fit in

The other Solution I really like is #2 from Jen - would offer a good opportunity for RP. Also to install there a trading post would be awesome. You don't have to go in a town you dislike for sell your stuff anymore

After the problem I mentioned - PM send to Estralis to check some facts before reporting it as a bug.

1. and 2. seem to be reasonable. No idea how much work is involved.

We had 3. before the VBU and people complained the 5 minute walk from Bane to somewhere else was way too long (and too dangerous, bacause sometimes you'd meet flies on the road). Please leave the wilderness wild.

I'd love for things like 5. to happen once in a while, but I don't expect that anytime soon.


Ultimately, a game such as Illa will never be completely grind free though and items, skills and coins will always take some time to get. For those who can't stand even 10 minutes of grind per in game hour, purely text based RP is better suited. Not trying to get rid of anyone here, it's just a fact.

You can improve your game experience with a few simple steps. Doing the work in a group is usually a lot more fun than on your own. Make your "laziness" your char's and RP her/him accordingly as a thief, merchant, priest, scammer or any other kind of char you can think of, that doesn't do extended periods of monotonous labor. If you grind, try to sell to players, as players usually pay 5 times as much as NPCs for some raw materials.

P.S. The ferry system is way too expensive and only accessible from spots that are not quite close enough to the towns to be used as town to town transport. Even with a group of 10 (good luck scraping that many together at all) it is still the same cost as using the teleporter, per char. 20 silvers a ride would make the ferry useful at least for some situations. Any more than that and walking/teleporter/portal book is almost always a much better choice.

Kind of a long read but had this in an attempt to change the tax system somewhat for new players: http://illarion.org/mantis/view.php?id=8656

Perhaps giving a choice to be an outlaw at the start of the game, from Newbie Island may be an answer for the tax system also..at least to give players time to decide on which place before their coin is removed if don't want to adjust the system for new/returning players.

For those players not wishing to do some grinding but only RP the big problem after becoming an outlaw would be travel. You can usually travel from the Inn to Galmair but not to Runewick or Cadomyr easily unless a higher end fighter. Another disadvantage now is the inability to use a different town's workshop without paying to use it which costs more coin and discourage even a little grinding to make coin for the teleporter (I had a char stuck in another town with no coin for return use said workshop to earn enough for the trip back before the charges were introduced).

I agree some system needs to be alleviated, it is set up more for players now and less for newer players. I know of one older player recently moved to the city the newer player was at, simply to help for awhile. I would propose as above stated:

1. Give the player a choice to join a town and rank allowing them to stay for awhile without paying the taxes, even one tax turn so they get the "feel" of the game without loosing coin OR can move to become outlaw if that choice is not given from Newbie Island.

2. As near towns, allow a safer areas on the roads to other towns such as Cadomyr and Runewick

3. Remove the charge for workstations to other towns to give a 1-2 time use every week or so then charge after that to prevent abuse. (or remove totally and deal with those that abuse on an individual basis by banning).

4. Also give portals or "tickets" for free teleporter as quest items but remember some players may not have much time for quests and simply wish to get in game to roleplay.


I'm sure there are plenty more ideas but ultimately agree the game could be more "new player friendly" for those wishing to mainly roleplay.

I *love* your suggestions, Achae. All of them.

@Jen:

the final solution is to make only ONE town where all char has to live and work.
* the market place for merchants
* a big hall with all tools for crafters
* a tavern for meetings
-> and visiting this 3 places would improve the chance to meet another char for RP
* the wilderness around is for fighters.

in my eyes reducing the number of towns will reduce the number of players

I definitely like the idea of adding the outlaw option as someone leaves Noobia. With that option, players need to be told what it means. No paying of taxes, but also no access to tools without paying a rental fee.

Alytys Lamar wrote:You go IG and a message appears you payed X Silver and xx copper for a town you are not even registered or settled in ?! WTH ???

Actually, Alytys, when you leave Noobia island, you selected a realm and registered for that realm at that time. That is why you are paying taxes. You can choose to leave that realm and stop the tax man from picking your pocket. Ask about it in game.

I agree with Katharina in regards to town reduction, people are where they are for very specific reasons. To remove one town would be stressful. Where would its citizens go? They aren't in the other two towns for a reason.

I don't particularly like the idea of a free teleporter period for new PO's because it will be difficult on them when they suddenly have to start paying. They will grow accustomed to the free ride and it will be a slap in the face to have to start paying after they have developed the habit of not worrying about it. Dependence on the teleporter would be a hard habit to break.

Lastly, if anything, if you look at redefining teleporter fees, perhaps there is a way to base it on a character's net worth? You can already look at this to tax them, obviously. Can a percentage base be used to define how the teleporter fines a character? .05% or even up to the same percentage that is being used for taxes? I am flexible and will use what people are comfortable with in this discussion.

Thanks,
PO ~Uhuru~

Mh, the idea with reducing towns or just one town is something to think about in my opinion.

Of course at the moment every town has characters who love it. Who has a reason to live there and not in one of the other cities. But lets face it, some cities are more crowded if some players let there twinks out for a walk - not bad but a small sign that Illarion doesn´t have so much players to get three citys to live around the clock.

If one citys gets rid (with a good ingame and outgame reason of course). This will make the players to reorganize and get them and others busy for some time. If one day there are more players - a rebuild will keep them busy.

I have to convince that the idea of one city was in my mind to.

How to organize this to keep a little competition?

Districts!

One district for crafters and workers, one for fighter characters (Guards, knights....) and one for mages, priests and such stuff. Maybe another district which is more for shady characters (thieves and so on), slums, harbor district...

The town center could be a marketplace or a meeting hall. A place where you should find characters because everyone hast to come to the market sometimes and when its the center of this town... You couldn´t avoid it easily if you stray through the town.

How to rule it?

The whole city could have a duke/king or whatever but every district could have represantative which could give a word to the leader of the whole city. A guild council for the merchants and crafters, a General for the warriors....

I´m sure there would be much to do and to play for everyone and enough potential to keep players busy (The crafters want to get more protection by the guards, the guards could think the mages are only arrogant and lazy.... So organize and keep working to reach your goals, but keep in mind you also will need the other districts.)

@Staff:
Reducing towns / Back to one town - I think this is something you might want to create a poll on and see what *all* the players really think. The concept of 3 cities is fantastic in theory, I love it, but the reality is that at the moment it just disperses the little amount of players that we have. Not every player looks or posts into this forum and maybe it would be useful to see what the overall opinion on this is.

Removing towns is not an option, sorry. Better try to attract more players to populate the towns! Our GMs should care for some increased mobility of characters when it comes to roleplaying. I proposed a weekly "market" event to them, giving players a free ride to e.g. the Hemp Necktie Inn to host a market day. People could trade there and get together. Interfactional trading and diplomacy could be boosted a lot by such regular events. I do not know what became of this idea and so far, the GMs did not conduct such a simple event.

It is rather simple to leave a town, perhaps the notary needs to be explained in a hint of the day or during the tutorial. However, making the outlaw option available on Noobia contradicts the idea to have factions - it is wanted that players get together in the towns. If it is JUST about avoiding taxes, sorry, this is a minor issue compared to the loss we'd have for the factions.

Estralis Seborian wrote:Removing towns is not an option, sorry. Better try to attract more players to populate the towns! Our GMs should care for some increased mobility of characters when it comes to roleplaying. I proposed a weekly "market" event to them, giving players a free ride to e.g. the Hemp Necktie Inn to host a market day. People could trade there and get together. Interfactional trading and diplomacy could be boosted a lot by such regular events. I do not know what became of this idea and so far, the GMs did not conduct such a simple event.

It is rather simple to leave a town, perhaps the notary needs to be explained in a hint of the day or during the tutorial. However, making the outlaw option available on Noobia contradicts the idea to have factions - it is wanted that players get together in the towns. If it is JUST about avoiding taxes, sorry, this is a minor issue compared to the loss we'd have for the factions.

Attracting new players and such things like the idea with the weekly market... Discussed in other topics. And I´m sorry to say this, I haven´t noticed a big amount of new players in the last few month which stayed ingame and not left after a few days/weeks after start playing. And the ingame economy of Illarion is another big topic (like the question "Why to buy a new item if I could let repair the old one much cheaper or could craft it myself much cheaper").

Sometimes ideas which are no option at the moment could be discussed at least. If they ever will make sense or the need for them is given - another point.

keep in mind:

reducing the towns to only one does not mean automaticly more roleplay or interaction between char.

Of course Jerem, no proposal is an automatic sucess.

My intention was: Concentrate them in one place but keep factions via the districts.

Reducing the towns is a lot of work in mapping and so forth. It is a lot of work. As Estralis said, just not an option. To create districts would take time and manpower that just isn't available. Then which GM's would run it? It is fraught with so many issues.

We need the multiple towns. Three is FAR less than what we used to have. We will endure until the player base grows.

What we need are different solutions. Please look for other ways to solve this problem.

I would not agree to rid of the other towns.. currently there is the (possibility) of good roleplayed conflict between towns, you eliminate that if you reduce to one town, however people should know there's always the possibility of taking over another town but simply no one has tried.

A simple solution might be to make the teleporter free for one dwarven week after creating a character. But reducing it to one single town is just a very hasty and very poor decision.

I still would suggest that we have the Hemptie Neck as a center part of the Game. If you are lonely in your town try it there
Give the new player a travelbook as first quest reward - let it be usable 3/4 times- then you should have at least some silver to pay for the tax and teleporter some times.
Beside I suppose it is not so much work to implant this as to remove a town.

* could someone explain to me what are the positiv aspects of one town for crafters?
* i only see positiv aspects for fighters / explorer

* a regular periodic meeting / event at the Hempty for all towns sounds more interesting

A travel book to each realm and the Inn in every starter package might be a nice gesture... it would also serve to make new players aware of this means of travel. Obviously if they are astute Galmairians they can always sell the books to get extra journeys by the regular teleporter

GolfLima wrote:* could someone explain to me what are the positiv aspects of one town for crafters?
* i only see positiv aspects for fighters / explorer

* a regular periodic meeting / event at the Hempty for all towns sounds more interesting

Really???? Excuse me if I'm being forward or offensive, but crafters have it out for them. I'm just really tired of everyone pointing the finger at combat based characters saying they get too much or have too many benefits. Why then, don't you go and try to play one? Seems everyone wants stuff easy so that everyone will be running around with epic gems and equipment and hundreds of gold. Well I say it's too easy now. (btw by combat based characters I mean archers currently and magic users to come as well, because they will hardly play as they do now but be a bit more active in terms of adventuring, and still probly won't make the wealth of a crafter) And if crafters see no benefit to having gems then why don't they sell them?

Also On pure rp chars I greatly respect the po's who play these chars because it enriches the game, and I do feel that having the teleporter free of charge for a week and giving them portal books in a starting package is helpful and won't hurt.

Did nobody like my idea?

if you look at redefining teleporter fees, perhaps there is a way to base it on a character's net worth? You can already look at this to tax them, obviously. Can a percentage base be used to define how the teleporter fines a character? .05% or even up to the same percentage that is being used for taxes? I am flexible and will use what people are comfortable with in this discussion.

Obviously, up to tax levels is a joke. But nobody commented at all. I think this may be a viable option. Does anyone like it?

Rich people would be not so rich very fast

Djironnyma wrote:You know about the Ferry system? - Its at least as group a alternertive way to travel.

Anyway to the solution it would be also possible to give Travelbooks as quest reward by newbie quests.

Ferry cost a gold to use.. much more than ten silvers

So far, I filed two concrete Mantis tasks:

http://illarion.org/mantis/view.php?id=10017
http://illarion.org/mantis/view.php?id=10018

Very good thoughts and points, everyone! Except for one: Removing two towns basically equals a workload, comparable to the VBU in terms of game content. This is simply not feasible and not an option. We should save this effort and invest all time into making the game better and promoting it to increase the player number. We are not too far away from making Illarion an indie gem - not a gem for thousands of players, but many more than today. But no one will play Illarion if no one knows about the game!

Mephistopheles wrote: I'm just really tired of everyone pointing the finger at combat based characters saying they get too much or have too many benefits.

I did not do that, but try to sell something as a crafter ...the only things sellable to other char are perfect high level iems that requires meriniuum or pure elements.
Other things are only sellable to NPC´s, and it is a lot of work and time for a crafter to earn merinium and pure elements. I tried it several times with several things ...no one was interested to buy them

Mephistopheles wrote:And if crafters see no benefit to having gems then why don't they sell them?

* merinium, pure elements and magical gems (and some other rare items like drowbows ....) have a value for all char.
* why should crafter sell magical gems if they dont can buy other equivalent things (like pure elements or merinium) therefore
* fighters also not sell "good" things ...why?



true, mages and archers (hope the archer problem will be solved in time) are at the moment the char with the biggest problems

Also, ich habe nicht alles gelesen, englisch ist auch nicht einfach zu verstehen, wenn man die Sprache kaum beherscht (schon gar nicht Freitags nachts um 11 Uhr ) Aber...

Zum einen sehe ich es so, das die drei Städte definitv bleiben sollten, auch wenn wir wenig Spieler sind.
Wohl eher würde ich es mir wünschen das man die Möglichkeit bekommt zu Fuß von einer Stadt zur Anderen zu reisen, OHNE das man in sichere Gefahr gerät zu sterben.

Zum einen bietet es mehr Optionen das man seinen Charakter voll ausspielen kann und dennoch rp bekommt.
Zum Anderen könnte ich mir vorstellen das es auch den Spielern gefällt die Charakter spielen welche aus diversen Gründen nicht kämpfen/kämpfen können.

Nehmen wir den letzten Eventabend, das Treffen in Runewick mit anschließender Besichtigung der Portale.
Ich mußte meinen Charakter verbiegen um daran teilnehmen zu können, und auch wenn es durchaus lustig war, fand ich es sehr schade.

Beim Gespräch im TS mit anderen Spielern hatte ich zudem das Gefühl das es Einige Spieler begrüßen würden wenn es einen sicheren Weg zwischen den Städten geben würde.

Die Karte wimmelt ohnehin schon von Monster, da schadet es niemandem wenn es auch eine sichere Verbindung zu Fuß gibt.

So könnte man, falls keiner in der eigenen Stadt anwesend ist, trotz Geldmangel oder Charaktereigensinn den Versuch unternehmen in anderen Orten jemanden anzutreffen.


Edit: ein spontaner Gedanke welcher mir eben kam...

Vieleicht könnte man wirklich so etwas wie einen Zentralplatz einführen, für alle Städte, eine Art...Großmarkt mit anschließender Pension und Taverne.
Der Großmarkt könnte ja jedes Quartal für eine Woche (eine rl Woche) noch Besuch von Importhändlern haben die exclusive Ware anbieten welche die hiesigen Händler nicht anbieten und vieleicht auch so exotische Dinge.
Vieleicht auch ein Jährlicher hmm...eine Art mittelalterlicher Jahrmarkt. Eine Jahrmarktgruppe die von außerhalb kommt und unsere Städte für einen Monat unterhält.

Inwieweit was umsetzbar ist, kann ich nicht beurteilen, es war nur eine Idee.

________________________

try to translate...sorry is late

So, I have not read everything, in English is also not easy to understand if one controls the language hardly (already not at all of Friday at night at 11 o'clock ), However...

On the one hand I see it in such a way that three towns definitv should remain, even if we are few players.
Probably rather I would wish it one the possibility gets on foot from a town to the other to travel WITHOUT which one in sure danger gets to die.

On the one hand it offers to more options one his character can completely finish playing and still rp agrees.
To the other I could fancy it also to the players likes the character which do not play for various reasons fight.

If we take the last event evening, the meeting in Runewick with next inspection of the main entrances.
I had to bend my character to be able to take part in it, and also if it was absolutely amusing, I found it a great pity ones.

Besides, in the conversation in the TS with other players I had the feeling some players would welcome if it a sure way between the towns would give.

The map is swarming anyway already with monster, there it damages to nobody if it also a sure connection on foot gives.

Thus one would be able, if nobody is present in own town, in spite of lack of money or character stubborness the attempt undertake in other places somebody to find.


Edit: a spontaneous thought which to me just came...

Maybe one could really introduce a sort of a central place, for all towns, a kind... Central market with next pension and tavern.
The central market could have every quarter for one week (a rl week) still visit of import traders, which do not offer the exclusive product the local traders offer, and maybe also exotic things.
Maybe also an annual hmm... a sort of medieval fair. A fair group it comes from outside and maintains our towns for one month.

To what extent what is moveable, I cannot judge, it was only an idea.