Illarion.org

*************Proposal for town balance****************

************Current set public Dev view based on npc****************
((http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... =6&t=37458))

Runewick: 6/3
Primary crafts: Candle maker, Carpenter/Lumberjack, Cook/Baker, Farmer, Herb gatherer, Tailor/Tanner/Dyer
Secondary crafts: Brewer, Fisher, Glass blower

Galmair: 5/6
Primary crafts: Blacksmith, Brick maker, Mason, Miner, Brewer
Secondary crafts: Digger, Finesmith, Gem grinder, Carpenter/Lumberjack, Cook/Baker, Farmer

Cadomyr: 5/7
Primary crafts: Fisher, Glass blower, Digger, Finesmith, Gem grinder
Secondary crafts: Candle maker, Herb gatherer, Tailor/Tanner/Dyer, Blacksmith, Brick maker, Mason, Miner

This seems biased to the player view but with slight edit and combing a few that should be one based on the correlating skill it can be made even.


*******based on npc's & resources*********


Runewick: 6/5
Primary crafts: Candle maker, Carpenter/Lumberjack, Cook/Baker, Farmer, Herb gatherer, Tailor/Tanner/Dyer
Secondary crafts: Brewer, Fisher, Glass blower, ((Mason/Brick maker)), ((Digger/Miner))
***adding Digger/(((Miner))) to Runewick makes sense as Digging skills go into mining have the clay and sand pits

Galmair: 4/7
Primary crafts: Blacksmith, ((Mason/Brick maker)), ((Miner/Digger/)), Brewer
Secondary crafts: Finesmith, Gem grinder, Herb gatherer, Carpenter/Lumberjack, Cook/Baker, Farmer,Tailor/Tanner/Dyer,Fishing
***adding Tailor/(((Tanner)))/Dyer to Galmair makes sense they have use able tanning rack close to town and helps Smiths trade for grey cloth they need***

Cadomyr: 5/6
Primary crafts: Fisher, Glass blower, ((Miner/Digger)), Finesmith, Gem grinder
Secondary crafts: Candle maker, Herb gatherer, Tailor/Tanner/Dyer,Blacksmith,((Mason/Brick maker)), Carpenter/Lumberjack
*** adding Carpenter/(((Lumberjack))) to Cadomyr makes sense they need it for pot ash and can cut trees safe south of the town where they slaughter cows****


***********Ending/Solution***********



For major 4 points for primary, 2 points for secondary) and moderate (2 points for primary, 1 point for secondary) crafts I would propose the towns are allocated:

Runewick: 2 major primary (8 points), 0 major secondary (0 points) + 1 moderate primary (2 points), 1 moderate secondary (1 point)(Total = 13 points)
Primary crafts: Carpenter, Tailor, Cook/Brewer
Secondary crafts: Glass blower, Mason, Farming

Galmair: 1 major primary (4 points), 2 major secondary (4 points) + 1 moderate primary (2 points), 2 moderate secondary (2 points) (Total = 13 points)
Primary crafts: Blacksmith, Mason
Secondary crafts: Finesmith, Carpenter, Gem grinder, Cook/Brewer, Farming

Cadomyr: 1 major primary (4 points), 2 major secondary (4 points) + 3 moderate primary (4 points), 1 moderate secondary (1 point) (Total = 13 points)
Primary crafts: Finesmith, Gem grinder, Glass blower
Secondary crafts: Tailor, Blacksmith,Mason

Cadomyr doesn't have farming so the balance is there just not seen right away. Farming to become more dependent skill using lvl system to grow certain items

Gem grinding could perhaps be added to Runewick as a moderate secondary to balance, particularly as gems are needed for tailoring and carpentry.

Candle making should be added to all towns and by doing so would still lead to a balanced system of 14 each





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(Gem grinding could perhaps be added to Runewick as a moderate secondary to balance, particularly as gems are needed for tailoring and carpentry.)

They have a gem grinder in the alchemical basement in the tower of earth.

Ufedhin wrote:(Gem grinding could perhaps be added to Runewick as a moderate secondary to balance, particularly as gems are needed for tailoring and carpentry.)

They have a gem grinder in the alchemical basement in the tower of earth.

Thanks for the info

Brawndara wrote:Candle making should be added to all towns and by doing so would still lead to a balanced system of 14 each

- it make no sense to add this craft to Galmair - there are no bees around so you cant gather wax for candle making

GolfLima wrote:

Brawndara wrote:Candle making should be added to all towns and by doing so would still lead to a balanced system of 14 each

- it make no sense to add this craft to Galmair - there are no bees around so you cant gather wax for candle making

Adding this craft would require bee hives being added. This would also require the static tool for candle making. The honeycombs from the hives would then be able to be used for candle making as well as for baking, instead of having to go to Runewick to gather honeycombs.

I fail to see the reason for these changes. Perhaps you can motivate them?

I dont see some of the support crafts in the solution that was offered.

i would suggest an old idea i posted in a thread before with a few changes.

Cadomyr:
P: Finesmith, Tailor, Tanner/Dyer, Gem grinder, Mason,
S: Blacksmith, Glassblower, Miner, Digger, Fisher,
Galmair:
P: Blacksmith, Carpenter, Miner, Lumberjack, Candlemaker,
S: Cook/Baker/Brewer, Finesmith, Farmer, Gem grinder, Mason,
Runewick:
P: Glass blower, Cook/Baker/Brewer, Farmer, Digger, Fisher,
S: Carpenter, Tailor, Lumberjack, Tanner/Dyer, Candlemaker,

As you can see there are 4 main crafts, 4 support crafts and 2 hobby crafts split half-way between Primary n Secondary in all factions. Also all the primary crafts in this case has everything provided for in the factions.
Secondary crafts WILL NOT be having all the things.
As a player who plays lizard characters in Galmair mostly; i dont think there is a lack of Fishing shoals around galmair currently. Good enough for cooking and roasting for newbies i would say. Cooking is secondary so it should lack something.
The only unbalanced thing i can find in the above is Masonry not having digging in Galmair. But again Masonry is secondary. Pits should be given according to the "digger" support craft.


For the above balance all that i can think of to be adjusted are the prices in NPC traders for favourable marketing according to the primary and secondary and a few of the following things.

There is thing about runewick having glassblowing as primary. I was hesistant last time to change it in that thread but since the sand is dug from Sandpits currently and not from sandy ground that can be easily adjusted(i think). So change pits according to Digger priorities.

Honey is used in baking brewing and candle making.So its better that these things are linked and in same factions.Remove them from cadomyr and place honeycombs n candle-making in galmair.

I dont see the use in providing Cadomyr with cows/ chicken when there is no cooking there.
If its a matter of providing leather and entrails that can easily be done by using other creatures.
However Galmair has cooking even though its secondary. amnt saying it should be easily available; it should at the very least be easily accessible compared to cadomyr currently. May be the secoond island from galmair can be filled with a few spawn of these instead of wild ones?

I've removed herb gathering as a craft. It was provided as a craft in the town balancing by GMs and Alchemy was later said as universal should be made truly universal by providing a trader for it in Galmair too. The accesibility of herbs is alright currently i guess. (Give Sogg the trade list? or may be someone new in flicker swale? a black market for herbs? )

Is there anything else i missed; or is my balancing at fault in anyway?

@ Estralis
The reason for a change would be how unbalanced the current balancing is; with more primary crafts in some factions compared to the others.
My balancing is reasoned to be more balanced (atleast in my mind) by the number of crafts given to each faction and also why some of the things seems to be lacking for the craft.

If we are to provide everything for every craft in every faction it would defeat the purpose of trade between them and there would be a lack of RP that would be caused due to it. This reason was given sometime back to me by some staff in illa. Am just trying to uphold that and keeping that in mind this balancing seems appropriate.

Mr.Oldie wrote:The reason for a change would be how unbalanced the current balancing is; with more primary crafts in some factions compared to the others.

You cannot simply look at the amount of primary crafts. E.g. carpentry is way more valuable than candle making.

That was taken into consideration. candlemaking was taken as a hobby craft.
Hobby crafts can be compared to each other in my opnion. and there are only three of them.
Each Faction in my balancing has 2 hobby craft which are further divided into primary and secondary..

Main crafts like carpentary are only compared with other main crafts in my balancing.

All I can say is that a very similar assumption - rank the crafts and distribute them as fair as possible over the factions - resulted in the current situation. So, the approach itself is valid, depending on who does the ranking and the distribution, the outcome will vary.

The question is: What exactly is wrong with the current distribution? What justifies massive reworking of map, NPCs and resources? I am missing the true motivation here except "one could do it in another way". Perhaps someone can enlighten me?

Personally as a player am alright with the current situation; playing a trader char seems to make me think the crafts are nicely balanced. but i've been told by some that its not balanced many times; So was just trying my hand in balancing it and make it "pretty". I did drop trying to balance it before, but the topic seems to be coming up again n again.

Well anyways, is it possible to see how the current situation came into existence? Perhaps knowing the current Points/ ranking system used to distribute the crafts would make it easier for players.

Resource-wise; only sensible argument for changes i've heard from players are:

1.
A Gemgrinder for Runewick because both carpentary n tailoring needs it (though this seems to be have been taken care of according to Ufe)
2.
meat that is not needed in cadomyr to be moved to galmair where it is needed very much.
3.
Candlemaking to be given to the factions with baking n brewing. Giving cadomyr honey combs only for candlmaking doesnt make sense again. so pair the candlemaking craft with the other two.

Other than these above; No fullscale changes needs to be done, everything else seems balanced properly. Am only putting voice to the opnions that was going around among a some players.

inconsistencies i found in the above ranking method.
1. Brick maker (A16) is same as Mason (A17)

2. Carpenter- Lumberjack a craft and support craft not split.
Tailor-tanner/dyer a craft and support craft not split.
Where as miner-blacksmith or digger-mason/glassblower or farmer-cook has been split.
Either split all support crafts from main crafts or dont split in any case.
Wont be a proper balance if you do it to one when its not done to another.

3. Alchemist is considered Global as far as i know. Additionally Herb gathering is added. should either be there if alchemy is global?

alchemy is available globally ((ie cauldrons)) however there is no herb vendor in Galmair as it is not a Galmairian craft. Herb vendors sell the herbs and parchment, I believe. So if this was made into a craft of the town, npc/vendors would need to be set up. Same example of Cadomyr isnt a cooking town but they have a cook fire. If you make cooking a secondary craft, it would require npc set ups to buy and sell the items.

Evie wrote: ...there is no herb vendor in Galmair as it is not a Galmairian craft.

@Evie
the merchant for receipts in Galmair is in the palast of the DON near the library.

@golflima
Evie isnt talking about the teacher alchemist NPC; but the herb trader.

sorry ... no herb trader at Galmair at the moment

Has anyone else come to the conclusion that e.g. denying Runewick getting a smelter and an anvil is the biggest ooc and ig mixing one could do, and that reducing certain primary crafts to towns is killing roleplay, logic and fun in the end?

Estralis Seborian wrote:The question is: What exactly is wrong with the current distribution? What justifies massive reworking of map, NPCs and resources? I am missing the true motivation here except "one could do it in another way". Perhaps someone can enlighten me?

The true motivation probably is a general discontentedness with the system.
Sometimes one has to admit a mistake and fix it. The proposal is a grand one Brawn, don't get me wrong, but there's no use in retweaking a deadly flawed system at all. It's limiting player freedom for no apparent reason. It has killed roleplay in the past. It kills fun and usability for people. It makes the game considerable harder for newbies to get into, and to adjust to. A truely progressive and logical step thus would be to get rid of it completely.

Tyan Masines wrote: The true motivation probably is a general discontentedness with the system.
Sometimes one has to admit a mistake and fix it. The proposal is a grand one Brawn, don't get me wrong, but there's no use in retweaking a deadly flawed system at all. It's limiting player freedom for no apparent reason. It has killed roleplay in the past. It kills fun and usability for people. It makes the game considerable harder for newbies to get into, and to adjust to. A truely progressive and logical step thus would be to get rid of it completely.

I do agree with Tyan, I would prefer to see it go and tools to be distributed to all realms, even the Necktie. But lets be reasonable, based on the reaction of the devs, this just isn't going to happen and completely reworking it isn't going to happen unless we have a huge and specific need and reason. I don't think that has been met yet. Estralis asked, "What justifies massive reworking of map, NPCs and resources?" and he's right. Our devs have much more important things to work on unless we have a big reason to rework this.

Tyan, even tossing it out would take a lot of work.

Thanks to the Deutsche Bahn I will be late for work so I can respond even now lol.


I'd ask then, what are these much more important things to be done? We two had quite the different view on matters before, but since we both agree on this one it gives me faith that most people will.

I wonder if removing the town specific crafts would be a lot of work. There would be a loss of work in form of sunk costs, e.g. the then obsolete license system. But sunk costs are not considered in planning processes for a reason.


Create Roleplay with it. Stop the ooc-imposed and illogical regulations on craft limit and allow the players of towns to fill the gaps via quests. Runewick could get know-how and materials to build up smithing tools. Cadomyr could use the sweet-water delta it has in front of its doors to create fields for farming. Galmair could buy sheep from other towns and install tailoring tools.
Quests which would actually create sustainable and appreciable effects on the gameworld, and improve the whole game. It's quite the dream and it is, by no means, impossible or utterly difficult to do.

I have acreated a Mantis issue for this topic here.

Tyan Masines wrote:Has anyone else come to the conclusion that e.g. denying Runewick getting a smelter and an anvil is the biggest ooc and ig mixing one could do, and that reducing certain primary crafts to towns is killing roleplay (...) in the end?
(...) It has killed roleplay in the past. (...)

Could please elaborate your thought, because I don't understand you here? Would it not be more reasable to claim that when I can do everything by myself and do not have to interact with others, that it kills roleplay?

Tyan Masines wrote:Create Roleplay with it. Stop the ooc-imposed and illogical regulations on craft limit and allow the players of towns to fill the gaps via quests. Runewick could get know-how and materials to build up smithing tools. Cadomyr could use the sweet-water delta it has in front of its doors to create fields for farming. Galmair could buy sheep from other towns and install tailoring tools.
Quests which would actually create sustainable and appreciable effects on the gameworld, and improve the whole game. It's quite the dream and it is, by no means, impossible or utterly difficult to do.

I would call this an one-time-effect. As mentoined above, as soon as those tools are installed in every town, everyone can do and become as she wants and does not rely on anyone else. The past showed us rather players wouldn't interact with others anymore.

Teflon wrote:

Tyan Masines wrote:Has anyone else come to the conclusion that e.g. denying Runewick getting a smelter and an anvil is the biggest ooc and ig mixing one could do, and that reducing certain primary crafts to towns is killing roleplay (...) in the end?
(...) It has killed roleplay in the past. (...)

Could please elaborate your thought, because I don't understand you here? Would it not be more reasable to claim that when I can do everything by myself and do not have to interact with others, that it kills roleplay?

It is my theory that the crafting restriction does not create a significant amount of roleplay. There are masters of every craft living in all towns. There are characters who are masters of a craft which is not even remotely doable in the town they live in. That is the reason licenses were introduced. They had to be introduced since the crafting restriction system failed (it did not have the effect which it was supposed to).
Don't get this wrong - but I have brought arguments here. Please provide arguments and examples where exactly the crafting restriction has truly enlarged roleply. The only real reasons players go to trade with others towns is for gems.

Also, if you believe this game would need three towns with different crafts to bring people together, I'd name all the years before the VBU and the crafting restrictions as an example. We did not have less RP then. Over a long time we had more RP. Don't treat players like imbeciles who need technical restrictions around every corner to create Roleplay. We are here for Roleplay.
It is because players can create their own interactions. It is their goal to interact, since not interacting is causing boredom. I see enacting crafting restriction was an idea to enlarge player interaction, but it does not. Less is more.



What I meant with it kills RP especially is, that it basically forces GMs to mix ooc and ic matters. An example: In Cadomyr it was proposed to use the sweetwater river to water fields for growing crops. This is possible (e.g. Nile Delta), but the idea can not be followed. Why? Because it was oocly imposed to not be followed. Because the town does not have farming in its premade ooc destiny.


Appendix: It seems enough to let players chose one of the three town ideologies for their characters. Forcing them to chose ideology and craft is hindersome for character development and imposes severe limits to characters in the game world.

Since it was me who created the licence-system (throw stones at me ), I can tell you, the idea resulted from IG complains about foreigners using tools in Galmair for free. I told it other GMs that I want to implement such system for Galmair and we agreed, if, then in all towns.

The devs are very aware that we have players who are able to create their own goals and rp, but we also have players who are not. Inparticular new players don't have goals. You argue that our restrictions of tools makes them stop playing. Actually, you assume, because you cannot prove it. Or do you have any surveys we don't know yet? Don't get me wrong either. We also lack those survies and many of those decision that have made are based on assumptions or the one person who implemented an idea, scripted it herself: The disadvantage of volunteers do everything, because they prefer to do what the like and not what you do. I mean, I have been waiting for more text for the website from you for more than one year now. However, I would bet that with all the background knowledge, expierence, data etc. we have a greater picture. It is not the towns that stops them but the accessibility of the game itself. Keyword tutorial.

Your gems-example is probably the best example how restriction can create interaction. If you use this opportunity is up to you. We can not force you to use the interaction to make more out of it. If you just go there, exchange them in a second and leave again, this is up to you. But if you would have all 7 gems as easily as you get 2 of them, you would not have to interact with other players at all.

I think I haven't mentioned this yet but I am a huge fan of balancing. One reason why I supported Brawndara to post his idea. But making all town equally and the same, would create just boredom.

And yes, we GMs mix ooc and ic on a daily basis but this is our job. We have to manage the game, which cannot be done without ooc. Since we are all volunteers and no one has ever received any professional training, we make mistake, but if you don't understand that we have to use ooc knowlege for managing the game, then you don't understand our position.

No side has surveys, that is true. I was assuming a try-and-error approach. The game currently is not attracting very man new players if at all. The game does not have very many players online, apart from events and typical playtimes.

Thus the issue I see is the following: If I need to rely on another player to continue my work, I might have to wait for days. I might have to contact that player via PM and still wait for days. I do that, because I know the game. If I was a newbie, I'd turn away.



I generally believe ease-of-use, as little ooc intervention from 'above' as possible and player liberty is what creates a good gaming experience. I can not back that with professional game design links now, but I am positive they exist. If I apply the just named template for design on the crafting restriction system we currently have... well. In the end it comes down to point of views. I'd be happy if the concern was at least noted, though.


You see, during character creation (Noobia) the game already forces players to chose between three (imho half-baked) ideologies. And if I strictly follow those, I can not play a profit-hungry tailor. I can not play a honorable farmer. I can not play a well-educated goldsmith. Any form of restriction limits player freedom and character concept.

Teflon wrote:And yes, we GMs mix ooc and ic on a daily basis but this is our job. We have to manage the game, which cannot be done without ooc. Since we are all volunteers and no one has ever received any professional training, we make mistakes, but if you don't understand that we have to use ooc knowlege for managing the game, then you don't understand our position.

Not what I meant. That is why I wrote the system forces GMs to find ooc excuses for ig issues. I know how hard that can be, e.g. if your character would be available for an ig event, but the player can not attend for real life issues. One has to look for excuses then. Those excuses always come across poor in a way.
If for example a GM would be faced with the wish of a Runewick citizen to get a smithy, what would he respond? We have no mines. If more citizens would claim they transport the raw materials into the city and simply wish to get an anvil, what would the GM respond? If I was in his/her position, I wouldn't know what to say. Because!, I guess. ^^ I hope that makes clear what I meant with that point. It was not supposed to be an accusation in any way.

I see alot of talk about restrictions and roleplay. I've thought about the major difference between when I had played before was that it seems now that player input is not important (not in all cases I know many gms and staff appreciate and listen to player input) but the thing is... on Gobaith it was Players that controlled the game and the gms oversaw and made things interesting every now and then, back then all the cards were on the table. Now theres so much worry about "abuse" and the staff take control of the game. Why was the effective system of item drops on death issued? "Abuse" why are there no Guild territories anymore? "Abuse" There will always be "abuse" and I always thought gms hit those guys with an iron scepter but as I've seen since I've started playing again is "hey lets keep the abuser on but change the system so it can't be abused." It seems the lore and roleplay is so controlled as is the entire system that I just don't want to play anymore. I loved the old gobaith system even with the overpowered mages and all its simple flaws.

My Suggestion is let players have more control of where the game goes... We play the game, maybe of the staff who don't should hop on every now and then to understand where we're coming from. (Again this statement is meant for the ones who don't play the game often, if it doesn't apply then let it fly)

Ps POWER TO THE PLAYERS!

P.s.s Umm maybe this wasn't the exact place for this opinion but umm.. yeah just came out.

You have all possible power. Illarion is open source. If you think you know how to balance right sit down and write a better balanced system, all codes and scripts are open sorce, there where even lectures how to script made by current devs.

If you mean with "Power to the players" : "Devs waste yor free time to make illarion like i personally want it" the simple answer is no. Illarion works after a very simple system, who invest time (mostly a lot of time, hundrets of hours) into the game decide mostly where the game goes. Since there is no requirement or restriction to start develop Illarion you have all the power to change illarion how you would like it, but yes you have to work for it and not only enjoy the game and yell around if something isnt like you wish.

Actually I meant it more or less in a point that the game is so much more controlled than it used to be as I have said, All the cards were on the table and players could do almost anything rp wise unless it breaking the rules or simply outrageous. But if we want to get on the dev's case I would like to simply ask that if a majority of players would like something to happen or not happen why not sit down and consider their ideas instead of the "my way is the only way because I work my ass off on this" I can very well understand why many might think this way, and I'd love to help develope the game but I'm an idea guy in this category and to be honest I'm a mathematical retard so actual scripting is out of the question for me.

But seriously if its going to be "My way, or the highway" then fine.. I'll go take the highway. If we can actually sit down and come up with consentual ideas that make everyone happy I will be glad to help in any way I can.