Illarion.org

As far as I'm concerned this is a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

I don't have to claim that you Elijah have used RP thread information( and no doubt other forms of OOC ) to affect your game play; I know it for a fact.

I myself have done it too, as has everyone in Illarion ever, whether they want to or not. Once you gain foreknowledge of an event it becomes difficult to ignore it, even when you don't want to purposely take advantage of it, it can affect your character play. Some people react too quickly to information on a forum post, and it is indeed unreasonable that information could spread that quickly. it was poor RP on the parts of those who did so. It can be tempting to take RP forum information and use it to your advantage, even if its as simple as making an RP opportunity for your character while they are available and the event in question is fresh in your head. Its something that can be improved upon, but i don't think it will ever go away.

The problem here as I see it is the same as always. Character Elijah has so many enemies at this point in time that PO Elijah will complain about others using the very technique that helped him control trollsbane and safeguard his character from harm countless times. How can anyone even think to take you seriously on your complaint when you yourself are guilty of the same thing? Other players are tempted to use the same tactics you do so they can keep up with you. If you want people to agree to less OOC ingame, then become an example for them rather then spouting hypocrisy. The feeling I've had lately is that everyone is currently spending so much time playing against each other rather then with each other that "information wars" are always going to erupt. Its no different then the occasions where highly PG'd guards can show up in a random location after someones secondary character or OOC buddy spots a criminal.

If we want to work toward resolving this issue then lets have EVERYONE do there best to address the problem, rather then only dragging it to the forefront of discussion when its simply not serving one sides needs.

/two cents

And I could rewrite your entire post, replacing Elijah with "Athian." Either way, it doesn't make these situations right.

He did mention that he did this himself in his post..

@ Elijah

You probably could and that wouldn't make my point any less valid. I already admit to it in my post that myself and everyone else does it. The difference is that you are the one addressing the problem only when it isn't serving your needs. No one believes that your going to better your own behavior or tattle on yourself next time you use OOC. So then why should they do what you want? because you want them too? Could you be more of a hypocrite? Yea probably...

Lets discuss this in a different thread in a general sense, not just in the finger pointing variety, as no one here has clean hands.

Using OOC to a small degree is frowned upon, but a necessity at times.

However, blatant and public reaction that was as quick as this and could affect the game so readily deserves to be recognized.

Elijah wrote:Using OOC to a small degree is frowned upon, but a necessity at times.

However, blatant and public reaction that was as quick as this and could affect the game so readily deserves to be recognized.

Translation:

Doing it a little and in a manner where no one can catch you (no matter the level of the offense) is okay so long as it keeps my character as I like them.

However, when its done in an over obvious way that allows one side of a conflict to be admonished for it while my side gets to sit on the high horse, well then that's just fine.


Question:

Does your foot really taste that good that you need to go back for seconds?

It can't be okay some of the time and not okay others. It needs to be admissible or non-admissible Or else it cannot not be addressed.

Hmmm.. just to interject something quickly.. I can't see any necessity for the use of ooc except where to meet if meeting another char ig for something and even then, some PO's object to this. I am not denying it takes place even with the best of intentions to avoid it.

Because we can't seem to keep all the things we read out of out character's heads.. Maybe the best thing to do when some one uses OOC knowledge is to shrug it off as words spreading or rumors. It's not like it has to spoil your fun, it just changes outcomes quicker. I'm sure people will be punished if they take OOC knowledge too far. Also, PMs and messages to GMs seems like a better way to resolve this.

Of course. Translators usually speak from experience.

Either way, I meant in small forms such as "Hey man.. lots of orcs in town right now.. no other guards online. Would be the oppurtune time for you to log in for a patrol *wink* *wink*".

You and I even engaged in similar OOC tactics when Elijah was hurt and several halflings were made (and who obviously were abusing OOC themselves, by checking the online list to see if I was on, and randomly showing up at the hospital) and I told you on msn and you rushed to my rescue. So yes, if OOC is used when others are using OOC then sure, it's very much okay.

However, where have I shown OOC use in this situation that justifies a reaction? Every action has a equal and opposite reaction. I jailed someone IG after acquiring knowledge IG to do so, and intended to make it seem like he simply disappeared. For someone to see a random post on the RP forum and then instantly, within three seconds IG go "Omg.. Altrix has disappeared! Did you hear?!" That's pretty lame.

Elijah wrote:I told you on msn and you rushed to my rescue.

Woah, what?

Its ALL lame. OOC; OOC to counter OOC. all of it.

I recall the event where Elijah was in the hospital not but ten minutes and somehow this strange and shady visitor that no one had ever seen before and with obvious ill intention came to "meet" the governor. And yes i came to your rescue, by standing in the room with you, as we both know were you alone there would have been a PK attempt. Perhaps in hindsight it would have been the better idea to leave you to your own devices and simply file a complaint. I didn't because for my part i was able to mediate that small issue without leading into people needing to be punished(i'm not a fan of ANYONE getting punished), I simply acted as another presence and it was enough to keep the whole thing from going stupid.

That goes back to my other point however Elijah, that happened because everyone was playing AGAINST each other. That I had to step in because some player felt you were wronging him in the OOC and couldn't find any other way to resolve it other then to plot an OOC assassination on you is sad. What's sadder is that your thread here proves that its STILL happening.

The only reason you made this thread is right in the first sentence of your post. "Due to the Insurgency". The insurgency is your enemy and this is a good chance to OOC slap the players who don't get along with you. That's not a good place to start

Topic as old as RP itself.
Metagaming should not be used to take advantage, but is necessary at least to some point to keep things moving.
Otherwise nobody would ever find out about any ongoing plots.

H.Banestone wrote:Topic as old as RP itself.
Metagaming should not be used to take advantage, but is necessary at least to some point to keep things moving.
Otherwise nobody would ever find out about any ongoing plots.

Exactly. If I didn't post that, people might not know for several months that anything had happened to me, where irl, people would notice very quickly that I had disappeared. In this case, ooc knowledge is helping what would really should happen. The problem is that some people reacted too quickly to it. But I'm not gonna lie, I'd rather have people notice one or two days too early instead of them noticing months too late.

bdgdkay wrote:

H.Banestone wrote:Topic as old as RP itself.
Metagaming should not be used to take advantage, but is necessary at least to some point to keep things moving.
Otherwise nobody would ever find out about any ongoing plots.

Exactly. If I didn't post that, people might not know for several months that anything had happened to me, where irl, people would notice very quickly that I had disappeared. In this case, ooc knowledge is helping what would really should happen. The problem is that some people reacted too quickly to it. But I'm not gonna lie, I'd rather have people notice one or two days too early instead of them noticing months too late.

Sounds like an honest enough mistake, simply reacting to quickly to something. I'm sure no one meant any harm in it, but then a toxic thread just had to be made...

Did they put Altrix into the big and tall style cell at least?

Athian wrote:

bdgdkay wrote:

H.Banestone wrote:Topic as old as RP itself.
Metagaming should not be used to take advantage, but is necessary at least to some point to keep things moving.
Otherwise nobody would ever find out about any ongoing plots.

Exactly. If I didn't post that, people might not know for several months that anything had happened to me, where irl, people would notice very quickly that I had disappeared. In this case, ooc knowledge is helping what would really should happen. The problem is that some people reacted too quickly to it. But I'm not gonna lie, I'd rather have people notice one or two days too early instead of them noticing months too late.

Sounds like an honest enough mistake, simply reacting to quickly to something. I'm sure no one meant any harm in it, but then a toxic thread just had to be made...

Did they put Altrix into the big and tall style cell at least?

Ha, they couldn't even put Altrix into a cell with a bed, much less one with leather padding long enough for him to fit on . The cell as a whole is long enough for him to lay down, but he has to walk sideways half the time. I say we hold a reform of the jails!

From my point of view, whatever that's worth, Altrix's PO should not have made this thread.

If people noticed too late, that's their problem. I can understand PO Elijah's desire to keep this secret as it was ICly. The only thing that Altrix should have done is tell everyone OOCly that he's not away and his character is still in-game every day. Not give a hint as obvious as the fact he was (unrightfully?) jailed by the Governor. (I have no clue what the story plot is, pardon me if I'm out of the loop.) - interested players IG should have been let to figure out where's Altrix by themselves.

As for whoever said metagaming is sometimes necessary or else no one knows about plots happening, that's complete bollocks.

While harping at the staff isn't my intention, I believe things like that are the consequences of the GMs loosening the grip a little. Two or three years ago, from what I recall, no one would generally dare to smile around/roleplay poorly like that. Staff would swiftly take care of business without leaving room for arguing. If you didn't like it, you didn't play here and that's that. Sure it was frustrating sometimes, but in all honesty, it kept things right.

Karl wrote:From my point of view, whatever that's worth, Altrix's PO should not have made this thread.

If people noticed too late, that's their problem. I can understand PO Elijah's desire to keep this secret as it was ICly. The only thing that Altrix should have done is tell everyone OOCly that he's not away and his character is still in-game every day. Not give a hint as obvious as the fact he was (unrightfully?) jailed by the Governor. (I have no clue what the story plot is, pardon me if I'm out of the loop.) - interested players IG should have been let to figure out where's Altrix by themselves.

As for whoever said metagaming is sometimes necessary or else no one knows about plots happening, that's complete bollocks.

While harping at the staff isn't my intention, I believe things like that are the consequences of the GMs loosening the grip a little. Two or three years ago, from what I recall, no one would generally dare to smile around/roleplay poorly like that. Staff would swiftly take care of business without leaving room for arguing. If you didn't like it, you didn't play here and that's that. Sure it was frustrating sometimes, but in all honesty, it kept things right.

Good point.. It probably would have been better just to point out im missing instead of in prison.. i'll keep that for future use. Much less controversy that way.

Just one girl's opinion here, but ....

I am in support of anyone with a character in jail beginning an RP thread. It's not like there's any RP opportunities for them otherwise. If there was active RP going on in prison, that would be different but as it stands a character gets shoved in - whether rightly or wrongly - and simply ignored and forgotten.

Too bad it spoiled the gradual unfolding of the ig plot, but that happens. *shrugs* Same thing happens in quests when players involved get all excited and want to progress the story at lightning-fast speed rather than letting things take a more natural course. Same thing, on a lesser scale, when a character reacts on people beyond their field of vision, approaching from behind, etc. Is it crummy? Yes, kinda. Being in jail is worse.

I think I mostly agree with Elijah here, it's ridiculous how quickly such disappearances (or any events for that matter) develop. I was tempted to react just as quickly as others in the said RPG-thread but took a more realistic approach instead.

In general I try not to read too much into RPG-threads because I know they influence my RP. I'm mostly ignorant of IG happenings unless I hear about them IG (silly, isn't it?) and proud of it.

Karl wrote:From my point of view, whatever that's worth, Altrix's PO should not have made this thread.

If people noticed too late, that's their problem. I can understand PO Elijah's desire to keep this secret as it was ICly. The only thing that Altrix should have done is tell everyone OOCly that he's not away and his character is still in-game every day. Not give a hint as obvious as the fact he was (unrightfully?) jailed by the Governor. (I have no clue what the story plot is, pardon me if I'm out of the loop.) - interested players IG should have been let to figure out where's Altrix by themselves.

As for whoever said metagaming is sometimes necessary or else no one knows about plots happening, that's complete bollocks.

While harping at the staff isn't my intention, I believe things like that are the consequences of the GMs loosening the grip a little. Two or three years ago, from what I recall, no one would generally dare to smile around/roleplay poorly like that. Staff would swiftly take care of business without leaving room for arguing. If you didn't like it, you didn't play here and that's that. Sure it was frustrating sometimes, but in all honesty, it kept things right.

I must say that I completely agree with you.
Altrix has gone missing, good, but why would people suspect he was in jail? No one has given any reason for that. Last he was seen with the governor, Altrix was getting promoted to general. Who in his right mind would suspect that he would get jailed the next day?
You can find all kinds of reasons to him missing.. from him being out training, to him having died drowned in the river during a magical flood. Him being in jail should be the last of the suspicions and all saying that are nothing more that saying what they have learned OOCly.

It is a well known fact that if you want something to remain secret IC you must also keep it secret OOC.

It sucks, its stupid and it shouldn't happen.
But it does, its not enforcable and it isn't going away.

Quinasa wrote:Metagaming is why I stopped using the RP forum. I pretty much stopped reading everything there years ago, so if there are new posts there I just click the "mark all posts as read" option (the same with all the Guild posts I'm not affiliated with, and half the ones I am anyway). If something has happened IG that my chars need to worry about, someone will send me a PM in character. Otherwise whatever it is can be found out in game. These days I will sometimes use the RP forum to post past events, but nothing that would effect current in game play. To me, the forums here are a place to have fun and be off topic, or to suggest and discuss what makes Illarion and only the PM function is a tool for my characters and I to gain any knowledge of what is going on in or around Gobaith.

I do that for most rpg threads also, but because most of the them are so boring. Who cares if x person's char wrote a diary or ran through a forest glade etc.?

It's a real shame we now lack the in character discussion threads we always used to have everywhere, and places where people would discuss plans and ask for help etc, making witty retorts and stuff. I blame the culture of "X person takes down the note of the person s/he doesn't like". 10 paragraph stories about a char's feelings just aren't interesting.

Flux wrote: I do that for most rpg threads also, but because most of the them are so boring. Who cares if x person's char wrote a diary or ran through a forest glade etc.?

It's a real shame we now lack the in character discussion threads we always used to have everywhere, and places where people would discuss plans and ask for help etc, making witty retorts and stuff. I blame the culture of "X person takes down the note of the person s/he doesn't like". 10 paragraph stories about a char's feelings just aren't interesting.

I seem to recall that GM's decided they weren't legal use of tthe forums and we were forced to stop using them that way.

Flux wrote:

Quinasa wrote:Metagaming is why I stopped using the RP forum. I pretty much stopped reading everything there years ago, so if there are new posts there I just click the "mark all posts as read" option (the same with all the Guild posts I'm not affiliated with, and half the ones I am anyway). If something has happened IG that my chars need to worry about, someone will send me a PM in character. Otherwise whatever it is can be found out in game. These days I will sometimes use the RP forum to post past events, but nothing that would effect current in game play. To me, the forums here are a place to have fun and be off topic, or to suggest and discuss what makes Illarion and only the PM function is a tool for my characters and I to gain any knowledge of what is going on in or around Gobaith.

I do that for most rpg threads also, but because most of the them are so boring. Who cares if x person's char wrote a diary or ran through a forest glade etc.?

It's a real shame we now lack the in character discussion threads we always used to have everywhere, and places where people would discuss plans and ask for help etc, making witty retorts and stuff. I blame the culture of "X person takes down the note of the person s/he doesn't like". 10 paragraph stories about a char's feelings just aren't interesting.

Usually if I'm posting in the RP forum it's for my own purposes. I don't ever expect anyone to read them, because I never read anyone's but mine. That way they're there, and I can reference them if I need to or if I just want to remember what date and time such things were happening in my character's life.

I use the RPG board to roleplay when I don't feel like going IG for any reason or can't roleplay this particular scenario IG or have an advantage to roleplaying it on the forums rather than IG. Wtf are you guys talking about?

I am a little confused as to what you expect to be done PO Elijah.

An appeal to players to stop this seems futile.
An appeal to staff to stop this seems futile.

You have to expect this sort of thing as inevitable, and act accordingly.
Too many people seem to think it is their entitlement to do these nefarious acts whilst maintaining an acceptable public persona. Those who cannot, for any reason, I have absolutely no sympathy for. I think people should either have their cake or eat it, not both.

Kamilar wrote:Just one girl's opinion here, but ....

I am in support of anyone with a character in jail beginning an RP thread. It's not like there's any RP opportunities for them otherwise. If there was active RP going on in prison, that would be different but as it stands a character gets shoved in - whether rightly or wrongly - and simply ignored and forgotten.

Too bad it spoiled the gradual unfolding of the ig plot, but that happens. *shrugs* Same thing happens in quests when players involved get all excited and want to progress the story at lightning-fast speed rather than letting things take a more natural course. Same thing, on a lesser scale, when a character reacts on people beyond their field of vision, approaching from behind, etc. Is it crummy? Yes, kinda. Being in jail is worse.

See now this is also a great point in my mind. I didn't just go around doing mindless pking to get my char thrown in jail. I went and I made something that would have been a massive rp opportunity with a character thats been played for years.. and i get rewarded with having that character sit and nothing now. I think that until something is done about the jailing system to make it into something that can actually be rped in game, you can expect that people are going to keep making these posts.

And the other RP options for my character? You expect any Governor or leader to simply sit around and go "Nah.. I don't want to do anything to him. Let them have their revolution. *dunks his crumpet in his tea cup.*"

Elijah wrote:And the other RP options for my character? You expect any Governor or leader to simply sit around and go "Nah.. I don't want to do anything to him. Let them have their revolution. *dunks his crumpet in his tea cup.*"

Did I say that? I said that until there are more rp opportunities in the jail, you can expect these kinds of posts to show up, because that is the only rp we can get in here.