Illarion.org

Posted: **Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:37 pm**

Hello, everyone. I'm sorry if this has been asked before, and I'd like to ask that no flaming starts from this, as usually happens when a magic discussion occurs.
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When magic is used for fighting ingame, does it do physical or mental damage?

For instance, if I throw a ball of fire at someone... are they burned by it? If I summon a magic flame, does it produce heat? Will it burn who touches it, or drain their "mental" health?

I have heard a few different responses to this question, and I'm looking for the most common way it is roleplayed by the community.

Thanks.

Posted: **Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:46 pm**

A very valuble question! But everyone here will give you their own opinions, certain named players will post large essays and rants, creating a flamewar about the very topic.

So be careful and good luck.

-Matt

Posted: **Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:47 pm**

In my magic theory its physical power and as far as i know the most mages / gms play it also as physical.

At least the point with the magic flame can be answered by engine - yes it produce heat, because it heal colds if you sit near to a summon flame

Posted: **Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:53 pm**

As far as i know, you get physical (life power) damage from spells, so such spells hurt the body. Fire hurts through burning, so it is not logical to pretend that a magical flame does not burn things.

Magical fire fields do not burn things or cause wildfires in the engine however. That is mainly because such an implementation would definitely cause half the island to be burned to the ground on a daily base.
The game-logic here clearly has to collide with "realism", of course a magic flame would burn things, that's how fire does damage. There have even been a few occasions where GMs have deleted items / carpets / walls or caused fires where a mage casted magical flames "at home", on his carpet and not on a fireplace.

I think, it is totally okay to trreat magical fire as burning things, however, if a mage is around (especially the one who created the spell), you can assume that he might have enough control about the spell to keep it from causing wildfires (in my opinion, it would still be unlogical to claim it would not damage the carpet it was cast on. Anything even close to a flame gets damaged from the heat.).

If you want to use pretty but harmless light sources as a mage, use illusion flames. These clearly do not ignite stuff. And if you want to cast a damage-dealing field spell without burning someones furniture, i recommend ice flames !

Posted: **Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:41 pm**

Djironnyma wrote:it heal colds if you sit near to a summon flame

Illusion flames also heal colds (placebo effect, which can be concluded to be the same result as normal ones), magical flames can't start forest fires, 100% magic resistance causes no damage from standing in a flame, though standing in a fire or being molotov'd will still hurt you. Wearing magical elven armour on your body, a metal, which would make fire hurt more, reduces fire damage. All "engine" evidence points to mental damage.

Posted: **Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:46 pm**

Flux wrote:
Djironnyma wrote:it heal colds if you sit near to a summon flame
Illusion flames also heal colds (placebo effect, which can be concluded to be the same result as normal ones), magical flames can't start forest fires, 100% magic resistance causes no damage from standing in a flame, though standing in a fire or being molotov'd will still hurt you. Wearing magical elven armour on your body, a metal, which would make fire hurt more, reduces fire damage. All "engine" evidence points to mental damage.

Depends on how you interpret it. Magical fire, to someone without the resistance, will burn away your skin. The fire is made up of magical components however, which you resist if you have magical resistance, meaning your body is not hurt by such components. It's like replacing your skin with fire retardant material, only in this case magic retardant material (a barrier which is mental in nature).

So the engine can really point to both, depending on how you interpret it. The illusion flames can still give off heat. It really depends on how you build up the illusion, and which parts of the illusion are real.

It all depends on the roleplay and on the way you want to see it.

Posted: **Thu Mar 25, 2010 12:45 am**

I would think that if a flame generates heat it can still burn you. You don't actually have to touch the fire for it to burn. If you have every been in a glass studio you'll notice it is extremely hot in there. Although you are never actually touching the flames, if you get too close the heat from the ovens will not only scald you, but I have seen a few of my friends get something similar to a sunburn due to that.

So I would figure that even with illusionary flames, if you created it to generate heat and light I don't see why it couldn't burn you, or perhaps touching it would just cause an extreme amount of unpleasantness.

Posted: **Thu Mar 25, 2010 1:49 am**

magic is about materia, correlations and conditions?

Posted: **Thu Mar 25, 2010 5:37 am**

role play it how you want to. As always there is no ''right answer'' it is how you want to see it. If someone IG has a different opinion then argue theoretics with them. If they complain ooc that you're doing it wrong? Ask for proof that there theory is right.

Posted: **Thu Mar 25, 2010 7:53 am**

Loophole wrote:role play it how you want to. As always there is no ''right answer'' it is how you want to see it. If someone IG has a different opinion then argue theoretics with them. If they complain ooc that you're doing it wrong? Ask for proof that there theory is right.

sry, but THAT is bulls***!
We cant see what our chars can feel. We have NO WAY to proof it ig, but it still has an effect. OOC-Informations are necessary to play correctly.
Just like the daytime/nighttime thing before they implemented the clock years ago.
Some where talking about the beautiful stars while a guy next to them was taking a sunbath!

Posted: **Thu Mar 25, 2010 7:59 am**

Kranek wrote:
Loophole wrote:role play it how you want to. As always there is no ''right answer'' it is how you want to see it. If someone IG has a different opinion then argue theoretics with them. If they complain ooc that you're doing it wrong? Ask for proof that there theory is right.
sry, but THAT is bulls***!
We cant see what our chars can feel. We have NO WAY to proof it ig, but it still has an effect. OOC-Informations are necessary to play correctly.
Just like the daytime/nighttime thing before they implemented the clock years ago.
Some where talking about the beautiful stars while a guy next to them was taking a sunbath!

And let the flaming begin...

But seriously, I'm thinking the spells differ like fire ball (KEL RA) would obviously be a physical one on my opinion where as the freezing spell (Cant remember what its called) and the hunger spell would seem to be a mental thing. All depends on how you see it. Do you see burning flesh and killing? Or do you see someone who is off their face on LSD and having a bad trip?

Posted: **Thu Mar 25, 2010 8:11 am**

Loophole wrote:If they complain ooc that you're doing it wrong? Ask for proof that there theory is right.

No OOC-discussions in the game, please.

Magic is magic. A magical flame of magical fire is defiantly hot. It stays a magical fire, though. Hot stuff can ignite other stuff.

I don't quite understand why there needs to be a correlation of magic to effects IRL. It is magic. Is the damage physical or mental? It is magical!

PS: In Illarion, all damage is physical. I hope this covers the question.

Posted: **Thu Mar 25, 2010 9:03 am**

Sorry but saying that magical flames burns stuff is just not really logical at all, seeing what the engine gives us we know: Magical fires do not start wildfires, the explanation with the system getting to big otherwise is not important, we hadn't wildfire before with the usual campfire we have it now, so there is no way this explanation counts.

Magical Fire does not burn anything, taking again the engine we know that highly magical resistend people can jsut put out flames without being hurt, but even those people will get fire damage from a campfire, so obviously the damage done by the magical fire must be different than those done by a normal fire and thus I think we need to decide what Mana and "lifeforce" truelly mean for a character.

I personally see magical flames as some kind of poision, without obvious signs of pain or burns, but with something that "eats up" the magic and mana from its surroundings, meanng it needs mana to burn , would be explaining why flame damage is screwed up with itemplacement, an item can or cannot deliver "mana" wich is usually "stored" inside of it, a badly done item has probably such a screwed up "storage" of mana that the flame can hardly acces the mana, thus the overall damage of the flame itself would be lowered.

So magical flames are of course doing damage, it pains people, but so does a headache, its more or less something that attacks the "very lifeforce" of you, which eats away the "mystical" energy that lies within you and eventually keeps you alive, which also would explain why illusion flames heal colds, a cold might just be some kind of sickness that is easly "burned" away in the "manaeating void" that surrounds a magical flame.

But of course in the end a mage should be able to decide if his flames truelly burn something and might possibly catch something on fire or not.

Posted: **Thu Mar 25, 2010 9:08 am**

Just had an idea:
the magical lifeforce magic attacks could be "blood glucose level". If low, you cant move, fight, even die. Gets better after you eat...just an idea

Posted: **Thu Mar 25, 2010 9:34 am**

Kranek wrote:Just had an idea:
the magical lifeforce magic attacks could be "blood glucose level". If low, you cant move, fight, even die. Gets better after you eat...just an idea

So we got a bunch of diabetic's running around?

Posted: **Thu Mar 25, 2010 9:49 am**

I'm not sure I get your idea either, Kranek...would you explain a little more please?

Posted: **Thu Mar 25, 2010 9:57 am**

Pellandria, please reread your third paragraph - you are using bug #186 as an argument to backup your personal point of view how magic should work...

Keep in mind that is your personal point of view which even contradicts actual ingame events. And if you want, we can implement in a minute that magical flames start wildfires. But we don't want to because wildfires are an annoyance. But if you insist that physical flames are only physical when the engine deletes items, you can have your will

.

People - rely to common sense and what the engine tells you. If you step into a flame, you lose hit points. That means: it hurts! Why? Because it is hot! It is a flame. Not a mana field of poisonous mana consumption.

Posted: **Thu Mar 25, 2010 9:59 am**

Yes:
If magic does not do actual physical damage (burned skin etc.) one could explain its effect like some sort of illness:
The magic hits ya and it reduces the amount of sugar in your blood, draining energy from your body. Like some sort of Insulin.
Magic-resistance could be explained as a sort of getting-used-to-it just like getting used to certain kinds of poison.

Posted: **Thu Mar 25, 2010 9:59 am**

Arvemor wrote:I'm not sure I get your idea either, Kranek...would you explain a little more please?

I think he means the freeze spell. Making you stand still using your blood sugar levels

Posted: **Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:02 am**

Alexander Knight wrote:
Arvemor wrote:I'm not sure I get your idea either, Kranek...would you explain a little more please?
I think he means the freeze spell. Making you stand still using your blood sugar levels

No

Posted: **Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:03 am**

Estralis Seborian wrote:People - rely to common sense and what the engine tells you. If you step into a flame, you lose hit points. That means: it hurts! Why? Because it is hot! It is a flame. Not a mana field of poisonous mana consumption.

I agree.
What I'm wondeing is what about "Non offensive" spells? Hunger spell for instance. Is it a cruel mind game? or does it actually fill your stomach up? either way I dont see why we are all bitching about it. It's magic... End of!

Posted: **Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:09 am**

I think Estralis explained pretty well. Thanks, Kranek. My guess would be that it actually *does* fill you up...IF magic fire does actually hurt you, magic food *does* actually fill you up.

Posted: **Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:14 am**

Estralis Seborian wrote:Pellandria, please reread your third paragraph - you are using bug #186 as an argument to backup your personal point of view how magic should work...

I just said it would explain said bug well atleast untill you fix the bug and everyone has to agree that, because of some weird circumstances, I guess its planet aligment or the holy power of narguns holy "I don't give a shit" words magic suddendly changes and all is well and fine

Estralis Seborian wrote: Keep in mind that is your personal point of view which even contradicts actual ingame events. And if you want, we can implement in a minute that magical flames start wildfires. But we don't want to because wildfires are an annoyance. But if you insist that physical flames are only physical when the engine deletes items, you can have your will .

Now I'm actually willing to listen what ig events you speak of, if you fear such an explanation breaks the overall meaning of the topic itself feel free to send me a pm

Estralis Seborian wrote: People - rely to common sense and what the engine tells you. If you step into a flame, you lose hit points. That means: it hurts! Why? Because it is hot! It is a flame. Not a mana field of poisonous mana consumption.

And if I eat to much I lose hitpoints aswell..does that mean that the actual stomachacid of my char is higly corrosiv just as the blood of the "aliens" in the alien movies and if so why is my character so incredibly dumb and always pukes on himself?

Posted: **Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:23 am**

Arvemor wrote:I think Estralis explained pretty well.

Posted: **Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:26 am**

Okay okay.

Magic. First of. Magic is lame. We all know it

Now magic produces damage. Damage is damage is damage. There is only one kind of damage. A character that is out of "mental power" does not die. Else mages would die when they are out of mana. I know some would like this but not our poor little mages. So no dieing from lack of mana.

So now the magical flame. A magical flame is a physical thing created by a mage and kept alive by the power of the mage. By logical consequence it should constantly drain mana from the mage while it burns because the mage has to invest his "power" to keep that flame. Again we do not do this because our loved mages would not like it for sure. Magic flames do not start wild fires because they are under constant control by the mage who summoned it.

Magical resistance now does not help against that flame directly. It shields of the magical power that keeps the flame burning and weakens it this way. This is also the reason why magical resistance helps against all kind of spells. No matter if fire or ice or poison or dirt. It always shields of the raw magical energy every spells needs to get a physical appearance.

So yes! Fire burns!

Nitram

Posted: **Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:32 am**

Nitram wrote: So yes! Fire burns!

Nitram

Did Nitram make a joke...?

Posted: **Thu Mar 25, 2010 12:52 pm**

Retlak wrote:A very valuble question! But everyone here will give you their own opinions, certain named players will post large essays and rants, creating a flamewar about the very topic.

So be careful and good luck.

-Matt

Pellandria wrote:Long rant.

Posted: **Thu Mar 25, 2010 1:12 pm**

Ahh yes who would have thought that the both "lolz magic is only awesome becauz i can pownzors peoples with my yellow skills" people appear to spray their mustard around...as usual pointing sensless posts, so go back to powergame please, thank you.

So does that mean now a mage could be allowed to use magical flames to burn down any building he would like to?

Posted: **Thu Mar 25, 2010 1:15 pm**

I'd like to make a no-flaming joke at this point - since we're talking about flames, but nothing's coming to mind

Yes Pell, yes you can Roleplay that your flame is at 1500 degrees and therefore able to melt metal as well.

Posted: **Thu Mar 25, 2010 1:22 pm**

I think this discussion is coming to an end, so let's all get back to what we usually do, powergaming, cybering, OOC bitching or banning noobs.

Nitram wrote:So yes! Fire burns!

Nitram

Illarion.org

Magic: Physical or Mental?

Magic: Physical or Mental?