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A question about usage: Are these terms just synonyms? Or does anyone else also understand there to be a difference between Vanima and Tol Vanima? I somehow got the idea that Tol Vanima is the island and Vanima is a political entity (not quite a city or even a town, but that sort of thing) that sits on top of the island. Does that ring true to anyone else?

As to their locations on the map, the way I understand the two terms from the illa wiki and how Lhosseth uses them: Tol Vanima refers to the entire Elven island and Vanima is the Elven city, indeed not really a city but to me it means the main hall building.

When speaking of a political entity, I think they are the same, because both are controlled by the Elves and their system of government, the Elders, and protected by the Tinechor.

I think of Tol Vanima as formal, and Vanima as informal--a bit like Troll's Bane vs Bane.

However, I also refer to the island as Tol Vanima, and the city as Vanima. Soo... :/

Fun fact: In Tolkien's works, "Tol" means island in some weird (In-book) language.

Hadrian_Abela wrote:Fun fact: In Tolkien's works, "Tol" means island in some weird (In-book) language.

How origional, just a shortened version of Atoll...
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To me, Tol Vanima is the island, and Vanima is the elven community.

Exactly

Tol Vanima = Island (of) Vanima
Vanima = The Elven Settlement and political Community

We elfs love to do it complicated

I just realised that if you look at the Map of Gobaith - it clearly shows "TOL VANIMA" to be the island, with "Vanima" inside it.

Hadrian_Abela wrote:I just realised that if you look at the Map of Gobaith - it clearly shows "TOL VANIMA" to be the island, with "Vanima" inside it.

True 'dat. Still, it's ambiguous just which part of the island is supposed to be Vanima proper. It might not be a proper part (in the technical, mereological sense). It could be that "Vanima" refers only to the Great Hall, but it seems odd that the smithy wouldn't be considered part of Vanima. For now, I'm sticking with my original understanding: Tol Vanima is a landmass, a physical entity, and Vanima is a settlement, a political entity, that overlaps entirely with (the surface of) the physical entity. Esp. now that I know that one of the Vanima Elders shares my understanding.

When creating it, "Vanima" was used for the settlement, containing all buildings / Parts. It is supposed to be the town name.

Shandariel el Lysanthrai wrote:Exactly
We elfs love to do it complicated

Not all of us.

@Thread Topic:
As for Tol Vanima vs. Vanima, I've always looked at them as a formal/informal contrast as stated by Alli. When speaking with a complete stranger (and sometimes people he doesn't like), Cain makes a direct attempt at not slipping into an informal context, and so Vanima becomes Tol Vanima and Bane becomes Troll's Bane. Ultimately the distinction should be made based on how one's character approaches it. The idea that Tol Vanima and Vanima as island and community was an intentional decision seems incorrect. It is simply an informal shortening that has taken place over time. I remember when the elven community was verbatim and given proper noun capitalization (Elven Community). When the island arose from the sea, the community needed a proper name and Tol Vanima was chosen.

Guess I could be wrong. The details aren't 100% clear to me anymore and I am not up to snuff on the political climate of Tol Vanima.

As far as I remember it was indeed in the way that "Tol Vanima" is the island and "Vanima" is the settlement on it.

So its not like "Troll's Bane" and "Bane" what only resulted from the laziness of some people to type.



Nitram

Although I hate to the very fibre of my being the word(s) FOIG. This seems to me to be something that was developed through characters, as opposed to players, and so should be something that is not defined through OOC parameters. The greatest strength of Illarion is the character of the world that is developed ingame through the characters and their interactions. To step back and define what these things mean extrinsically, as players, seems somehow to undermine the very life that our characters have given it.

I understand that from a game design viewpoint some OOC development is completely necessary and is more than welcomed. However I can't help but feel there is a point where we should step back and let the lore and life of illarion grow through its own means. Trying to narrow that down simply tends to result in terrible monstrosities such as the 'Warlock Definition'.

So in essence. It is whatever your character believes it is.

Nalzaxx wrote:To step back and define what these things mean extrinsically, as players, seems somehow to undermine the very life that our characters have given it.

Sorry, I wasn't looking for a decisive definition OOC. My characters and I already had opinions as to what, if anything, the distinction between Vanima and Tol Vanima amounts to. I was just curious as to how widely shared those opinions were. Even if this discussion thread had convinced me that my opinions were wrong (it hasn't -- it reinforced them), there wouldn't be any way for me to communicate my new understanding to my characters. So they'd have to go on using the terms in the wrong way. Maybe I should have started the thread on the Off-Topic board; nothing said here is really going to affect my gameplay.

I wasn't having a jab or anything, just airing some thoughts.

Its always nice to discuss, as players, the way in which our characters and the world of illarion develops, seemingly independent to us. I wanted to encourage the nurture of such an environment, but not to the exclusion of all else.