Starting Skills

[Grokk]

Why does everyone keep comparing Illarion to other games? Isn't Illarion supposed to be different?

Actually Athian, Estralis said that the way to go about this is to make a proposal that 1. changes the wrecked skill system and 2. adjusts the start up skills. Pretty sure I stuck to the topic, my post included both of these. Perhaps you could try offering an alternative? Or maybe state why you don't think my idea could work? I just want to help this proposal move forward.

Yes I'm lazy. There is no way I am sitting at my computer for hours on end grinding up my skills every time I wish to create a new character. I will probably not stick around here. I'm sure this game has lost plenty of other new players for the same reasons. Illarion is supposed to be about roleplaying. That is what attracts players. I know I've asked these question several times, in several places, but no one seems to have answers.

Why does Illarion have such a ridiculous grind? Why does a roleplaying game use a skill system geared towards powergamers?

[Estralis Seborian]

Why does Illarion have such a ridiculous grind? Why does a roleplaying game use a skill system geared towards powergamers?

The current skill system was created with good intentions, but it did not work out. I assume there was a lack of testing / simulations how the concepts would affect day to day roleplay. It is too complex for simple simulations, sadly.

The responsible developer(s) is/are currently not available. A bunch of proposals exists, in a very concrete state. Simulations were done, results were promising.

But I go with Athian. No game grants you level 25 on startup, or even level 40,70 or whatever was proposed. I am all for faster overall skillgain, as you might know, level 0-10 can be achieved in like ten minutes, with level 90-100 taking ten years. Making this a bit more... evened is mandatory. But: If you simply skip the first e.g. 40 levels, you lose 40 moments of "Cool! A swirly!" and also, skillgain would be fucking slow from the very beginning .

Personally, I still say any start up skill beyond 20 is beyond any reason and I cannot take such a proposal serious. I'd go with 10 at maximum, a crafter can do quite some stuff with that skill. Start up skills are NOT to fix/skip other game part's flaws but just a small boost at startup. We can also consider ruling out all start up skills, but somehow, I like to give new characters some first points, just for the sake of motivation.

All in all, the start up packages could use an overhaul. Default attributes, skills and items need a tweak. The more concrete proposals are made, the faster this can happen.

[Kranek]

Its not about the "cool a swirley". It's about playing my char as his background describes him.
Sorry guys, but i cant't take a mercenary serious who has troubles to defeat and angry halfling with a cooking-spoon!
Our chars had a life before they came to Gobaith, the did some work, or fought against monsters or any other things! But when they enter Gobaith, they are helpless babies able to speak. A startupskill of 20 is necesary and not too much.

Another idea i had in that context, will write a proposal about it if interested:
Remove skillgain from monsterkilling.
I know sounds weird, but: in a fight against a monster it's "kill or get killed".
While with my dude from the tavern, a fight is training, it has breaks, he explains my errors and helps me to correct them.
Benefit: More cooperation. It's not longer possible to create a char, grind for some weeks and then walk around killing others while the char himself is a guy nobody ever heard of.
I'll write some more things about that later, in a hurry right now...at least i will write if i dont get PWND till i return

[Llama]

I don;t agree with you Kranek sadly.

In fact, the fastest way to skill up IS co-operation - if you go hunting with someone else, there is less risk - more monetary gain, and you skill up faster since you're fighting a harder monster than you would already have.

I don't think removing the ability to skill up from monster-fighting will do any good, there is already enough +ve reasons to fight against someone else, particularly the fact that the risk of dying is minimal.

[Estralis Seborian]

I'll write some more things about that later

I don't want to sound blunt, but save your ink. Removing skillgain from PvE and limit it to PvP will never be implemented.

For me, it is a core question whether characters should start with a skill level that stams from a "former life" or not. Illarion exists for like nine years and this never has been the case and it is not common game design for a MMORPG. Even hardcore RP shards usually do not feature something like this. Illarion is a game afterall, and character development is a vital aspect of this game. If you want to remove this, remove skillgain, remove money and turn Illarion into a graphical chat. The current staff of Illarion does not support this, I think I can say this as public statement.

[Nitram]

I think character concepts that require a basic skill level from the very beginning on are bad. Thats what I always said and will say.
Creating such characters is a false step and who ever does it, has to suffer the resulting problems. All characters are unskilled at the beginning and the only proper way to start a new character into the game and making him starting unskilled.

Nitram

[Drathe]

Why do you think that Nitram, what is it about giving a character a basic level of skill such a bad thing for the game?

Like I have said, what is the game? A skilling game to grow skills or a RP game to role play. If chars have no skills and want to develope them and thats the feeling on it, then lets push away this idea of power gaming. Its what the game is about.

[Nitram]

I think its a bad thing that everyone arrives the island as:

Uber warrior
Uber mage
Uber crafter
Uber what ever

Why is it bad? Its boring. If you don't want to train anything, play a chat based roleplaying game.

Nitram

[Kranek]

Nitram, its not about Uber-whatsoever.
Its about a realistic skill for a char that had a live before he reaches the Island. Since we are not allowed to play child-chars at the age of 6 or so, the new chars should at least have some skill usable. And 10% is not really usable.

[Llama]

How about, for the first X skillpoints you earn, you skill up at double speed?

That way you don't get free-skill handed to you, and newbies can see results faster = makes them happier.

[Estralis Seborian]

How about, for the first X skillpoints you earn, you skill up at double speed

In a "not-so-simplicitic" way, this is part of what I've proposed as a change to the skill system. But that is off-topic.

I think we can resolve this discussion with Nitram's statement: Starting with high skill is boring. In Illarion, you HAVE to train your character, you HAVE to craft junk to get better, you HAVE to fight mummies to become able to compete with demons.

If you don't want to train anything, play a chat based roleplaying game.

Nitram

But still, I'd like to keep start up skills, to give players something to start with. For me, all packages should contain the same number of skills, on distinct levels to make it fair. A fighter, starting out with a dozen skills at 20 and a mage, starting out with one skill at 3, well, that is not the way to go. That is why I proposed 10%-5%-5%, three skills, one primary, two secondary. You can make up other distributions, this could really help. Keep in mind we're designing a game, not a RL simulation nor "The SIMS 4 - The Gobaith Days".

[Drathe]

I just dont see the issuse with a small amount of starting skill, Occam's Razor.

[Silo]

I see the point that's being made by those who don't want higher starting skills, and it's a good one. However, the side others are supporting is the RP side, not the "skill" side. It's the sad fact of when a person comes to the island, they fail. They have NO skills, and therefore any RP background that is made for the character makes them look stupid.

"I was a member of the town guard for a good few years, back on the mainland."

"Dude... You got your ass kicked by a wasp."

I get that, for "skill" reasons, starting with higher skills is not a good idea. But for RP reasons, it's a bit necessary. People who want a character with a background are forced to go PG for a few days before even RPing at all, and then they get bitched at.

So yes, the only way to fix this is to fix the skill system, not necessarily starting skills (though they would probably have to be changed, later).

[Taiah]

I am actually good with the way it is set up now, IMO would be nice to have a slight increase on start since I PG'd ( uh trained) , my fighter char for about a month before actually RPing much... yet that accidental RP when someone finally found her was some of the best I have had.

I have seen and also had very creative chars that have come to the island being "hurt" and unable to do their normal "profession". One excellent char was RP'd as a master silversmith with an acute aversion to ore caused by an evil mage. He spent a long time finally finding a cure.

[Alexander Knight]

Okay got an idea

1-100 you guys want to start at 25.... well okay perhaps you should raise the maximum skill level.
That way you will still be just below average at your skill but you will still need time to master it. Rome wasnt built in a day peoples.

Look if you go into carpentry IRL when will you become a master? perhaps in 20 years or maybe more.
Personally i think the skill gain should be slower and maybe have certain skill caps for anyone thought to be PGing to level out thee playing field for those who cant get on everyday

[Keikan Hiru]

You are aware that 10 of 100 are the same as 20 of 200 ?
I mean, whats the point in raising the start skill when you raise the max skill as well?

[Alexander Knight]

to stop everyone whining

[Estralis Seborian]

When I send you all 4678 Illarion scripts that involve skill calculations to replace all numbers there, will you do that?

No?

Thought so. That idea is totally off, sorry.

Silo's post pretty much sums it all up. But Illarion is simply not a game where you create a character with a static set of skills, but you have to develope the skills over time. This is a general concept. Skillgain can and should be modified more to fit the desired style of playing, though. But that's not the topic.

[Alexander Knight]

Yes i will replace the numbers cos i am that bored

But i did try and compromise