A question!
Moderator: Gamemasters
A question!
Anyone who flames will receive a dot.
Now, it got to my delicate ears that there are players who are ICly and OOCly against me and the Prince because of this quest. Mainly the OOC part bothers me.
Is this true, and if yes, why are you so scorn over just another change to RP, while you could treat it as something new to incorporate into your RP?
Mesha
P.S. It has also come to my ears that these players are mainly English (AKA, UK and USA).
Now, it got to my delicate ears that there are players who are ICly and OOCly against me and the Prince because of this quest. Mainly the OOC part bothers me.
Is this true, and if yes, why are you so scorn over just another change to RP, while you could treat it as something new to incorporate into your RP?
Mesha
P.S. It has also come to my ears that these players are mainly English (AKA, UK and USA).
- Djironnyma
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Do you believe the public topic have really use? I doubt.
In general i think the whole idea is good and also the way how it works until now is okay. Aside of that general point i see two critical points, one i told you yesterday personally, no need for discus it again here. The other is that i miss the connection between the questchar the prince and our backgroundstory. E.G. his name doesn't fit to the one which stand in the Backroundstory as ruler LINK.
But as i sayed in general i like the quest.
In general i think the whole idea is good and also the way how it works until now is okay. Aside of that general point i see two critical points, one i told you yesterday personally, no need for discus it again here. The other is that i miss the connection between the questchar the prince and our backgroundstory. E.G. his name doesn't fit to the one which stand in the Backroundstory as ruler LINK.
But as i sayed in general i like the quest.
While I'm still tottering over whether I'd be against Gm rule or not (OOCly), and while I do not have any opinions of my own at this time, others do. Take note that these are not -my- reasons, but ones expressed by others.
There is a widespread feeling that it detracts from IG politics, which were a large and fairly exciting part of player RP.
Some players do not have faith in the particular GM to run towns properly for reasons of roleplay.
Many players feel a sense of powerlessness over the entire matter which utterly vexes some (or most) of them. It drives them to more personal attacks OOCly than ICly.
Building on the previous problem, it is claimed (though I was not there to see it) that the prince said any who are openly hostile to him will be "sent to the mainland" (i.e., accept and cooperate with GM rule or the ban-hammer falls).
As to the matter of IG characters having a sense of democracy that would not naturally be present in such a world, it has been claimed that while it is true that the mainland has great monarchies, etc, Gobiath has always had a history of different government tactics, despite the lore created for it by Damien, and that characters are attracted to it as they were in our own history, and follow the pattern.
I suppose besides this there may simply be a sense of "we were forced to lose everything we worked on".
If there's anything else, I can't remember it.
There is a widespread feeling that it detracts from IG politics, which were a large and fairly exciting part of player RP.
Some players do not have faith in the particular GM to run towns properly for reasons of roleplay.
Many players feel a sense of powerlessness over the entire matter which utterly vexes some (or most) of them. It drives them to more personal attacks OOCly than ICly.
Building on the previous problem, it is claimed (though I was not there to see it) that the prince said any who are openly hostile to him will be "sent to the mainland" (i.e., accept and cooperate with GM rule or the ban-hammer falls).
As to the matter of IG characters having a sense of democracy that would not naturally be present in such a world, it has been claimed that while it is true that the mainland has great monarchies, etc, Gobiath has always had a history of different government tactics, despite the lore created for it by Damien, and that characters are attracted to it as they were in our own history, and follow the pattern.
I suppose besides this there may simply be a sense of "we were forced to lose everything we worked on".
If there's anything else, I can't remember it.
- Pellandria
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I personally think the main problem there is that this whole comes from the gms and looks very much like oppresing the rp of many people, basicly there seemed to be "no way" to get the salcamarians to stop attacking or to destroy their moral or what not, it just was "The Gm's say we want this and you better well do what we want", of course people will be disgruntled by this.
Something else is that there were people ig that tried really hard to etablish a rule in trollsbane and than after it seems that they have driven away the temple the gm team tells them that they better suit up, because they will put everything their chars worked for to naugth and run the show themself.
So yeah.. another problem here basicly is that you allowed several things to happen, as the assault on the convoy and the ballistas..I talked much about things to do with you...but in the end..we never were allowed "enough" to really fight off the army..no booby traps..no guirella style of warfare...as we killed the commander in the first wave that had almost no consequenzes on the salkamarians at all.
So all in all the failure was maybe that the gm's simply gave "themself" a too big advantage and the players felt left behind, because they had no way to fight back like they really would have.
There would be a "big" differenc if the gm's actually would have taken the time, bring an char ig that could possibly win an election and take it over this way, because than the char would have been "one of us" and not "one send from somewhere with no logic at all" ...you need to remmeber Lon Angur seems still under siege..and some Prince goes to fight a war in some uninterresting little blob on the worldmap?
Just my few pennys.
Something else is that there were people ig that tried really hard to etablish a rule in trollsbane and than after it seems that they have driven away the temple the gm team tells them that they better suit up, because they will put everything their chars worked for to naugth and run the show themself.
So yeah.. another problem here basicly is that you allowed several things to happen, as the assault on the convoy and the ballistas..I talked much about things to do with you...but in the end..we never were allowed "enough" to really fight off the army..no booby traps..no guirella style of warfare...as we killed the commander in the first wave that had almost no consequenzes on the salkamarians at all.
So all in all the failure was maybe that the gm's simply gave "themself" a too big advantage and the players felt left behind, because they had no way to fight back like they really would have.
There would be a "big" differenc if the gm's actually would have taken the time, bring an char ig that could possibly win an election and take it over this way, because than the char would have been "one of us" and not "one send from somewhere with no logic at all" ...you need to remmeber Lon Angur seems still under siege..and some Prince goes to fight a war in some uninterresting little blob on the worldmap?
Just my few pennys.
As soon as the invasion and purpose of it was announced, this is what I had thought. Such as this has been accomplished in the past by GMs in non-TB locations, and the players indeed would have felt a much more "one of us" feeling than before, and perhaps be far less disgruntled.Pellandria wrote:
There would be a "big" differenc if the gm's actually would have taken the time, bring an char ig that could possibly win an election and take it over this way, because than the char would have been "one of us" and not "one send from somewhere with no logic at all"
Just my few pennys.
-
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I have experienced that many people take something, for example an IC event that they did not like or even that gave others a tiny benefit (i.e. a few silver coins for some fun questing) and not them, as personal OOC insult.
On bigger events that have an impact on ingame society, that might originate in someone wanting to achieve a goal with a character, and then something changes, and the player may develop anger against the first person he can blame for it.
I also made the experience that those people who can be pointed at or who can be made look responsible for whatever just because they are in the "spotlight"of the moment are quickly being badtalked by a few in this community. But usually, you can backtrace that rubbish with a little work, and it's always the same few n00bs that spread such stuff and talk others into joining or thinking bad of one possibly "responsible" person. No matter how tiny the reason was, things are being talked big, usually by those who do not know things first hand, but listened to chat-flamings of others.
Don't care for the flaming kindergarden, that always happens. Most of them have not even been playing the quests and just join the flaming 'cause they want or others told them to. Just note down the tiny bits of constructive / respectfully formatted critics.
On bigger events that have an impact on ingame society, that might originate in someone wanting to achieve a goal with a character, and then something changes, and the player may develop anger against the first person he can blame for it.
I also made the experience that those people who can be pointed at or who can be made look responsible for whatever just because they are in the "spotlight"of the moment are quickly being badtalked by a few in this community. But usually, you can backtrace that rubbish with a little work, and it's always the same few n00bs that spread such stuff and talk others into joining or thinking bad of one possibly "responsible" person. No matter how tiny the reason was, things are being talked big, usually by those who do not know things first hand, but listened to chat-flamings of others.
Don't care for the flaming kindergarden, that always happens. Most of them have not even been playing the quests and just join the flaming 'cause they want or others told them to. Just note down the tiny bits of constructive / respectfully formatted critics.
- Juliana D'cheyne
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http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... hp?t=31773Now, it got to my delicate ears that there are players who are ICly and OOCly against me and the Prince because of this quest. Mainly the OOC part bothers me.
I am curious why the surprise?
I'm a bit conflicted in regards to the whole thing.
On one hand, I think that the added resources that the GM team can bring to running the town (NPC guards, an 'unlimited' treasury, quest support) will be great. Also, less related to the GMs, I think it's a welcome change to have a leader who's actually meant to be a good leader, rather than someone who's manipulating the government to their own ends (the impression I get from most of the past player officials).
On the other hand, I do feel like it takes away some freedom. One of the things I enjoy is the 'frontier' atmosphere Trollsbane has, which I don't see persisting while the town is under GM rule. It also feels like there's a limit being placed on what characters can achieve. With a player government anyone could become anything, but now it seems that's limited. Finally, it seems to me that GM run guilds aren't more successful than those of players (Early Magic Academy).
On one hand, I think that the added resources that the GM team can bring to running the town (NPC guards, an 'unlimited' treasury, quest support) will be great. Also, less related to the GMs, I think it's a welcome change to have a leader who's actually meant to be a good leader, rather than someone who's manipulating the government to their own ends (the impression I get from most of the past player officials).
On the other hand, I do feel like it takes away some freedom. One of the things I enjoy is the 'frontier' atmosphere Trollsbane has, which I don't see persisting while the town is under GM rule. It also feels like there's a limit being placed on what characters can achieve. With a player government anyone could become anything, but now it seems that's limited. Finally, it seems to me that GM run guilds aren't more successful than those of players (Early Magic Academy).
I think a lot of animosity stems from the fact that players feel they no longer have a part in the game. They are no longer playing the game, but merely peices being told what to do by the GMs. There is no longer a story for them to make, they must do what the powers that be have decided.
A lot of what attracts people to play illarion is the freedom that it allows to make your own story and to truly influence the ingame world. Ordinary characters can become prominent and make a reputation for themselves thereby becoming the central figures in the story line. When a GM comes in and starts telling players what is happening they loose this freedom. They no longer have a say in what they have worked hard to create, and this is of course disheartening.
No matter what they do or acheive the outcome has already been decided, and I think this is fundamentally against the spirit of Illarion. As a roleplaying game the emphasis is on making the story, not acting a part in a pre-scripted play. If I wanted to follow a preset story that I am unable to change I go and play Warcraft or any other generic Online RPG. If I want to create a rich and diverse character in a world that reflects the actions I make, I come to illarion.
It amounts to the equivalent of force RP. It is not a method that is encouraged amongst players, and it is not acceptable amongst questers either. A GM position allows the ability to create more diverse and sophisticated stories amongst players, not to dictate them.
My opinion, for what little it is worth.
A lot of what attracts people to play illarion is the freedom that it allows to make your own story and to truly influence the ingame world. Ordinary characters can become prominent and make a reputation for themselves thereby becoming the central figures in the story line. When a GM comes in and starts telling players what is happening they loose this freedom. They no longer have a say in what they have worked hard to create, and this is of course disheartening.
No matter what they do or acheive the outcome has already been decided, and I think this is fundamentally against the spirit of Illarion. As a roleplaying game the emphasis is on making the story, not acting a part in a pre-scripted play. If I wanted to follow a preset story that I am unable to change I go and play Warcraft or any other generic Online RPG. If I want to create a rich and diverse character in a world that reflects the actions I make, I come to illarion.
It amounts to the equivalent of force RP. It is not a method that is encouraged amongst players, and it is not acceptable amongst questers either. A GM position allows the ability to create more diverse and sophisticated stories amongst players, not to dictate them.
My opinion, for what little it is worth.
Players still have a chance to work in other governement's and to promote other townships and help them grow(assuming they are nice enough to even leave that).
I think what would have been nice was to have a GM oversee every town in an indirect way. Without needing to become the offical ruler of any of these places, which as far as i'm concerned in an unnecessary action. No matter what happens to the world of IG politics that is still an IG matter and should be handled as such. A GM should step in in cases of Rule breaking or other infractions.
With a GM ruler not only do i think that it brings down the possibility of RP but it also stave's any RP growth for communities. One can never oppose and GM, nor defeat a GM and really they can't even influence a GM, all such things are only possible under the digression of the GM themselves. I think the best example might have been during that last battle when the Prince was attacked by a circle of his enemies he was standing in.
Regardless of the situation RP wise i could not imagine a prince coming to duel a single warrior amidst a mass of his enemies. Even with his soldiers around the possibility of assassination would have been too great. When the players chose to take advantage of that possibilty they attacked and slew the prince whom after dying automatically resurrected(many times) without reason or discussion. Why? Because the GM decided that he COULD NOT LOSE(this is one example of many, the entire 'quest' was not very good). No matter what the consequences of his own actions, he forced the story along down his own path leaving no real options for anyone else.
Who wants to play with a character who can instantly take any creative options and simply deny them at a whim, with the blessing of also being a staff member behind it? I would think very few would like to do that. Its no different then forced RP except its on a massive scale. Just the thought of the potential of this kind of 'rule' is a turn off to players who are used to having greater creative freedoms when it comes to the player world of the game. When the GM's who's task it is to oversee and provide entertainment and stability cross that line by placing what is virtually a 'god' into the lives of there mortal players, obviously they will feel oppressed.
I don't think there is much of a question as too why many people are unhappy with such a turn of events.
I think what would have been nice was to have a GM oversee every town in an indirect way. Without needing to become the offical ruler of any of these places, which as far as i'm concerned in an unnecessary action. No matter what happens to the world of IG politics that is still an IG matter and should be handled as such. A GM should step in in cases of Rule breaking or other infractions.
With a GM ruler not only do i think that it brings down the possibility of RP but it also stave's any RP growth for communities. One can never oppose and GM, nor defeat a GM and really they can't even influence a GM, all such things are only possible under the digression of the GM themselves. I think the best example might have been during that last battle when the Prince was attacked by a circle of his enemies he was standing in.
Regardless of the situation RP wise i could not imagine a prince coming to duel a single warrior amidst a mass of his enemies. Even with his soldiers around the possibility of assassination would have been too great. When the players chose to take advantage of that possibilty they attacked and slew the prince whom after dying automatically resurrected(many times) without reason or discussion. Why? Because the GM decided that he COULD NOT LOSE(this is one example of many, the entire 'quest' was not very good). No matter what the consequences of his own actions, he forced the story along down his own path leaving no real options for anyone else.
Who wants to play with a character who can instantly take any creative options and simply deny them at a whim, with the blessing of also being a staff member behind it? I would think very few would like to do that. Its no different then forced RP except its on a massive scale. Just the thought of the potential of this kind of 'rule' is a turn off to players who are used to having greater creative freedoms when it comes to the player world of the game. When the GM's who's task it is to oversee and provide entertainment and stability cross that line by placing what is virtually a 'god' into the lives of there mortal players, obviously they will feel oppressed.
I don't think there is much of a question as too why many people are unhappy with such a turn of events.
This was my experience of the Salk quest RP that was available.
'nuff said?
*GM logs out with no RP*w: (-33551016)-33551016: I suggest you leave me alone elfess. Do not make me harm you.
w: (-33551016)-33551016: The prince is in an audience. Distracting me further will result in me detaining you.
w: (-33551016)-33551016: Get away from me elfess.
'nuff said?
- Tanistian_Kanea
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- CJK
- Developer
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IC just the fact that my character is RPed how he is has forced him into opposing the Prince... Not to mention so many of the supporters seem like idiots to Jon (no offense to PO's just Jon's views of the world are... different)
OOCly I have few issues, except that I feel like any opposition is being handled a bit too biased... even if it isn't it still comes across that way.
Also the fact that we couldn't win wasn't very nice for our side.
![Razz :P](./images/smilies/icon_razz.gif)
OOCly I have few issues, except that I feel like any opposition is being handled a bit too biased... even if it isn't it still comes across that way.
![Shocked :shock:](./images/smilies/icon_eek.gif)
Also the fact that we couldn't win wasn't very nice for our side.
Re: A question!
Because so many players in this game refuse to do anything outside of their own niche. They stay talking with the same few people ingame and never try to open up new opportunities and just see what might happen. They don't anything to happen to their character that they haven't already thought about and predetermined.Mesha wrote:why are you so scorn over just another change to RP, while you could treat it as something new to incorporate into your RP?
.
I personally don't have an issue with the quest. I feel though, that it won't work nor last. I've been with this game for 7+ years and have seen the entire island be run with 0 leaders, as well as the entire island being run with 10+ different leaders with their own respective locations. And I can say from personal experience that there has been less problems, less issues, less frustration (all of which in OOC just as much IC) when there are no rulers. This is because a person, or group of people cant really be in charge of such a dynamic group of players. The only way I really see it working is if someone actually dedicates majority of their day to playing the leader role in game. Though for someone to do that is absurd, and of course may go days without being present. At which point we are all fortunate enough to hear players bitch ingame about the governor/archduke/whomever doesn't care about their settlement because they are never around bla bla bla bla. It's a very interesting idea to have player run cities, and has of course lead to some fun RP, but in the end it always comes up with frustration for most of the players involved.
GMs tried this before, it was called Lyrenzia, and it failed miserably imo. Though that was mainly due to the fact it had biased players/GMs running it and the same players got fucked over again and again for little to no reason. I feel that Mesha is competent enough, and I hope that he decides to open up a decent amount of RP opportunities with this, and also allow alot of players to get involved in whatever he does. I hope you wont just be on Anarius when he needs to play the role of dictator, but also that he will begin to build actual relationships with people.
There is a big chance for opportunity... but I think Athian says it well....
One can never oppose and GM, nor defeat a GM and really they can't even influence a GM, all such things are only possible under the digression of the GM themselves. I think the best example might have been during that last battle when the Prince was attacked by a circle of his enemies he was standing in.
....
When the players chose to take advantage of that possibilty they attacked and slew the prince whom after dying automatically resurrected(many times) without reason or discussion. Why? Because the GM decided that he COULD NOT LOSE(this is one example of many, the entire 'quest' was not very good). No matter what the consequences of his own actions, he forced the story along down his own path leaving no real options for anyone else.
....
Who wants to play with a character who can instantly take any creative options and simply deny them at a whim, with the blessing of also being a staff member behind it? I would think very few would like to do that. Its no different then forced RP except its on a massive scale. Just the thought of the potential of this kind of 'rule' is a turn off to players who are used to having greater creative freedoms when it comes to the player world of the game. When the GM's who's task it is to oversee and provide entertainment and stability cross that line by placing what is virtually a 'god' into the lives of there mortal players, obviously they will feel oppressed.
- Olaf Tingvatn
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im not for nor against a GM run town, or all of the towns for that matter. And since i 'do' love to nitpick: The Game Master(s) said that they/he/she was goning to take over, in the prince character, Mesha, he said resistanse is futile and those who opposes the Prince and his army will be dealt with accordingly. Allthough that is not word for word what he wrote since i didnt bother going back and searching the forums, you dont have to be a rocket scientist to understand that the takeover was going to happen no matter what. I dont feel that this takeover restricts any form of Role Playing, exept for maybe leaving Troll's Bane desolate, which in turn will deter more and more new players when they see so and so many people online and then find Troll's Bane void of human and/or orc, halfling, lizard, fairy, elf, the odd gnome and so on and so forth, life. I for one have not seen many authority figures In Game, it seems they grow bored with being a politician and so their character tends to post things in the RPG forum, rather then actually doing anything In Game. They are only humans and after all this is just a game even 'if' your character has "worked his and/or her butt off" to become a leader or an important person, its still 'all' about how much a Player Of an important character likes the Player Of that character who wishes to become an important person too.
And yes, i find it highly interesting that people whom oppose the prince will be sent to the mainland..it was written In Character as far as i could tell. That 'is' technically telling people ,Out Of Character, that they will get banned for any attempt at disobeying and/or speaking up against the Game Masters takeover. And the fact that characters slayed the prince, whom apperantly kept respawning unaffected, without any penalty to the princes army morale is a bit odd. Now im going to be mean to the Game Masters whom said things that made me think of a cornered politician.
*clears his troth then straightens an imaginary tie around his neck* Now..Mesha,.since you were clever enough to cover your tracks by deleting the post about the takeover, i cant find it at least and its 03:11 in the morning now and i have a splitting headache, and i have problems with short term memory i can not qoute word for word. But, to my memory you wrote that it wasnt written in stone, then i believe Allsaya blew your cover by saying it was going to happen, then you started ,i believe, two threads stating the opposite and even helped the Troll's bane dwellers build barricades. To me you acted as a decoy so that the other Game Masters wouldnt have to deal with disgruntled players. Then you said that you werent going to take over if the characters fought like there was no tommorow, that they did..and even "killed" the prince several times. Yet, the Salkamarian Army did not retreat and the prince was still able to fight on and then eventually take the town of Troll's Bane. And the fact that you said you were going to help the players construct a "rebel camp" made it even more clear that this takeover was going to happen. The outcome of the battle had been decided long before it even was mentioned to us players, which raises the question : Why didnt you just do a silent takeover? hm? as you said yourself "if they players cant drive the storyline forward we will have to do it for them" that is not word for word but, is it not true you or one of the other Game Masters said so? maybe it was Nitram...still ,you lied. why you lied i can sort of see with the discussions following the aftermath of the princes post on the RPG forum. But, double talking and lying with smoke and mirrors, that fooled most players into thinking they even stood a chance against the Game Masters, was just plain annoying. If i only had those threads you Game Masters created i would make this even more solid. Just ask Krull *sly smile* Ban me for what i have said if you must, but it's better to tell the truth and deal with it then lying trough your teeth.
My head hurts too much for me to continue this bashing, if you can call it that, so i leave the word to you Game Masters. dont row to hard..it might just break the oares. *bows then steps of the podium and takes a seat waiting patiently*
And yes, i find it highly interesting that people whom oppose the prince will be sent to the mainland..it was written In Character as far as i could tell. That 'is' technically telling people ,Out Of Character, that they will get banned for any attempt at disobeying and/or speaking up against the Game Masters takeover. And the fact that characters slayed the prince, whom apperantly kept respawning unaffected, without any penalty to the princes army morale is a bit odd. Now im going to be mean to the Game Masters whom said things that made me think of a cornered politician.
*clears his troth then straightens an imaginary tie around his neck* Now..Mesha,.since you were clever enough to cover your tracks by deleting the post about the takeover, i cant find it at least and its 03:11 in the morning now and i have a splitting headache, and i have problems with short term memory i can not qoute word for word. But, to my memory you wrote that it wasnt written in stone, then i believe Allsaya blew your cover by saying it was going to happen, then you started ,i believe, two threads stating the opposite and even helped the Troll's bane dwellers build barricades. To me you acted as a decoy so that the other Game Masters wouldnt have to deal with disgruntled players. Then you said that you werent going to take over if the characters fought like there was no tommorow, that they did..and even "killed" the prince several times. Yet, the Salkamarian Army did not retreat and the prince was still able to fight on and then eventually take the town of Troll's Bane. And the fact that you said you were going to help the players construct a "rebel camp" made it even more clear that this takeover was going to happen. The outcome of the battle had been decided long before it even was mentioned to us players, which raises the question : Why didnt you just do a silent takeover? hm? as you said yourself "if they players cant drive the storyline forward we will have to do it for them" that is not word for word but, is it not true you or one of the other Game Masters said so? maybe it was Nitram...still ,you lied. why you lied i can sort of see with the discussions following the aftermath of the princes post on the RPG forum. But, double talking and lying with smoke and mirrors, that fooled most players into thinking they even stood a chance against the Game Masters, was just plain annoying. If i only had those threads you Game Masters created i would make this even more solid. Just ask Krull *sly smile* Ban me for what i have said if you must, but it's better to tell the truth and deal with it then lying trough your teeth.
My head hurts too much for me to continue this bashing, if you can call it that, so i leave the word to you Game Masters. dont row to hard..it might just break the oares. *bows then steps of the podium and takes a seat waiting patiently*
- Taliss Kazzxs
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A GM assistant, scribe, adviser, councilman, secretaryish type role would have worked much better for what you guys are trying to accomplish...That at least giving the option for the staff to work with the players ig and ooc as opposed to ruling over them in both.
My only issue was that you fellas chose freaking Salkamarian Paladins to carry out your invasion thus making any character that opposes the spanking/take over automatically the bad guy, regardless of their previous roleplaying that brought them to their beliefs, choices, and decisions.
My only issue was that you fellas chose freaking Salkamarian Paladins to carry out your invasion thus making any character that opposes the spanking/take over automatically the bad guy, regardless of their previous roleplaying that brought them to their beliefs, choices, and decisions.
The battle, I was not really there for, I have no comment on it.
The concept of this RP however is not only feasible to me, but also interesting. I can't wait to see what happens, as long as little is done to others to keep them from carrying our their roleplay. What would be even more interesting, is if this RP -effected- whatever they might have planned. Don't ignore it and carry out the storyline you have in mind, let it be changed by the actions of the players, whatever they might be. I am in no way saying that is how its been thus far, its only begun
Now if only I can be in game more.![Razz :P](./images/smilies/icon_razz.gif)
The concept of this RP however is not only feasible to me, but also interesting. I can't wait to see what happens, as long as little is done to others to keep them from carrying our their roleplay. What would be even more interesting, is if this RP -effected- whatever they might have planned. Don't ignore it and carry out the storyline you have in mind, let it be changed by the actions of the players, whatever they might be. I am in no way saying that is how its been thus far, its only begun
![Wink :wink:](./images/smilies/icon_wink.gif)
Now if only I can be in game more.
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It should be pretty clear by now, that throughout Illarion's history in any situation where a force appears to rule and cannot be removed, players will almost always refuse to accept it as a change in scenario for their CHARACTERS to play in, and instead irrationally take it as a threat to the freedom of the PLAYERS to do what they want. It's also not surprising that it is once again the "english" players who feel this way more so, seeing as how the value of freedom and opposing evil dictatorship rule is a theme that has been grinded especially into American culture over the past decade, and can be difficult for them to filter from their view of the game.
Lyrenzia, to the best of my recollection, was established by GMs, but had players that held positions such as judge and jailor. For instance... Damien was the only person with a key, but was in no guild as I recall. And Tialdin was the judge... but it was an absolute intangible organization for the most part, and one couldnt go against it. People of course tried to, but it was impossible. I remember Damien "catching" people and putting them in jail. This meant if you were on the same screen as Damien, you got instantly teleported to jail, no if ands or buts about it. And the trials were based on ooc. I remember once watching Darlok (before northerot) kill someone for being annoying, then trapped his ghost (bannable offense) behind the bar in the tavern for 10+ minutes (which at the time lowered every skill by about 15 levels). Tialdin was present for this and Darlok was claimed innocent and the victim was actually thrown in jail. Things like this happened too often, and the staffs friends always got away without having to do jail time (which was weeks of time) and through enough OOC complaints it stopped.Korwin wrote:To the best of my knowledge, Lyrenzia was run exclusively by players who were the leaders of major guilds. The problem is that there were too many decision makers, who weren't active enough.
Though, I can't possible imagine an incident like that ever happening again.
Perhaps the german players dont care because they hole themselves up in their own little RP world and ignore everything outside their clique, even if it is island-wide important. Maybe they shouldnt be so close minded.Dyluck wrote:It's also not surprising that it is once again the "english" players who feel this way more so, seeing as how the value of freedom and opposing evil dictatorship rule is a theme that has been grinded especially into American culture over the past decade, and can be difficult for them to filter from their view of the game.
I can ignorantly point my finger at another culture as well.
Last edited by Salathe on Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
Maybe I should clarify that I had a character who was one of the governing members of Lyrenzia. It was established primarily by Dyluck (who was not a GM), Damien was the leader of the Order of the Grey Light, Tialdin was never a GM (as far as I can tell), Lyrenzia was composed of its member guilds (fairly tangible), and there were IC discussion posts for all the legitimate trials (which ended up not being very many, I'll admit). I will agree that there were some huge advantages granted to people who had friends in high places (Darlok and Zuljin), but that has nothing to do with player or GM governments.
- Pellandria
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I think there are two plain mistakes here, you take the actions from our chars and turn them into player actions, thinking that we would not care as long as it does not involve our ability to rp our char. I for once think that ~anyone~ who did not in any way shape or form take place in the war itself, no matter if you wanted to side with the prince or Bane, simply did bad rp, there is no way your regular char, except he is a hermit of some sorts or is incredibly stupid, would just go ahead and allow an forreigning force to ~attack~ one of the best defended town of the island.Dyluck wrote:It should be pretty clear by now, that throughout Illarion's history in any situation where a force appears to rule and cannot be removed, players will almost always refuse to accept it as a change in scenario for their CHARACTERS to play in, and instead irrationally take it as a threat to the freedom of the PLAYERS to do what they want.
It's also not surprising that it is once again the "english" players who feel this way more so, seeing as how the value of freedom and opposing evil dictatorship rule is a theme that has been grinded especially into American culture over the past decade, and can be difficult for them to filter from their view of the game.
The phenomenon of Illarion is always that chars stick together when there is some threat from some kind of demon, lich and whatever, in such quests once was always clear "you get shinys at the end" and "you can win against this guy", but now we had a quest of "you get no shinys and you probably can't win" and suddendly most chars do not feel the threat of an invading army.
Which lead me to just one conclusion, unless you give certaint players the freedom to get quest related prices or the obvious "you will win" guarentee it will always turn out that some chars "suddendly" decide not to join a quest, no matter what his char has done in the past to defend his home.
In my opinion the prince now would not stop at bane, after loosing several regiments in his army he would tear up the island for all what its worth it, after all he has shown that he stops for nothing, thus it would be logical that he enslaves the whole island, makes ~everyone~ work for his army and dig up ressources, cut forests and tear up every mine he can get to, because that would greatly boost his own army and atleast give him something back for his loss, not to mention that he should think that this whole island is his anyway and now after taking the strongest town out, he should just spread his grasp and attack every town and settlement.
Atleast this sounds most logical, now that he has taken out the resistance and it would suddendly be a threat for the whole island. So basicly the quest stopped in the middle, because the gm's reached their goal, but their chars as such do not live up to the roles they allready created.
As Korwin mentioned, Salathe, your "recollection" was grossly misinformed:
-GMs did not create Lyrenzia. I "primarily" created Lyrenzia, without any "superpower" at all.
-Damien was in a guild. In fact, he was leader of the Grey Light, the oldest guild ever in Illarion.
-"Catching" powers did not come until much later on, around a month or two before I stopped playing. Only Aragon and I had it, and I only used it 2 times. Aragon used it sparingly too as far as I knew. After the Town Guard was involved, I cannot speak for them.
-Trials were decided by a vote of all judges who decide to participate. I participated in almost all (60+) of them. Who was OOC biased? Tialdin I hear? That's 50% at most, so who else's OOC bias tipped the votes? Why are in-character judgements that you disagree with automatically a sign of OOC bias? Can't the trials have corrupt politicians or be unfavorable to ill-reputable defendants? Were you expecting DNA testing and fingerprints?
-Sure, if Darlok did what you said, he deserves OOC punishment. But if you can't accept that the character Tialdin or anyone proclaims the character Darlok innocent, then don't you think that's just another example of how you think in-character justice should serve your desire for OOC justice? That's the kind of differentiation that I'm trying to say people like yourself aren't able to make.
I never said much over the last few years, but it surprises me how much people are still misinformed and mix facts with rumors. Just like yourself, there were many others who believed these misconcieved preconceptions of Lyrenzia. All I ever hear are generalizations and rumors of what was OOC or IC. If you think someone was OOC biased, then cite names and examples, like you did with Tialdin and Darlok, instead of saying "Lyrenzia" did this and that. It still amazes me how one can say that Lyrenzia was so "absolutely intangible" that you cannot stop or remove them, while at the same time say that they are so "tangible" that they can actually impede your freedom to play the game just by writing text on the board. The bottom line is that anytime there is a dictatorship takeover in Illarion, there will almost always be players who automatically feel their freedom to act in-game threatened.
Sure, you "can ignorantly point your finger at another culture", if you honestly think you are adequatelly informed about German mass media. However, it's likely that you don't actually disagree with my view of American culture, but rather that you disagree that it influences your character's reactions.
@Pellandria:
I agree with what you just said, so I don't understand what exactly you are disagreeing with what I said. It seems we both concluded that when the characters can't win against a takeover, the players will either stop playing normally or complain OOC.
-GMs did not create Lyrenzia. I "primarily" created Lyrenzia, without any "superpower" at all.
-Damien was in a guild. In fact, he was leader of the Grey Light, the oldest guild ever in Illarion.
-"Catching" powers did not come until much later on, around a month or two before I stopped playing. Only Aragon and I had it, and I only used it 2 times. Aragon used it sparingly too as far as I knew. After the Town Guard was involved, I cannot speak for them.
-Trials were decided by a vote of all judges who decide to participate. I participated in almost all (60+) of them. Who was OOC biased? Tialdin I hear? That's 50% at most, so who else's OOC bias tipped the votes? Why are in-character judgements that you disagree with automatically a sign of OOC bias? Can't the trials have corrupt politicians or be unfavorable to ill-reputable defendants? Were you expecting DNA testing and fingerprints?
-Sure, if Darlok did what you said, he deserves OOC punishment. But if you can't accept that the character Tialdin or anyone proclaims the character Darlok innocent, then don't you think that's just another example of how you think in-character justice should serve your desire for OOC justice? That's the kind of differentiation that I'm trying to say people like yourself aren't able to make.
I never said much over the last few years, but it surprises me how much people are still misinformed and mix facts with rumors. Just like yourself, there were many others who believed these misconcieved preconceptions of Lyrenzia. All I ever hear are generalizations and rumors of what was OOC or IC. If you think someone was OOC biased, then cite names and examples, like you did with Tialdin and Darlok, instead of saying "Lyrenzia" did this and that. It still amazes me how one can say that Lyrenzia was so "absolutely intangible" that you cannot stop or remove them, while at the same time say that they are so "tangible" that they can actually impede your freedom to play the game just by writing text on the board. The bottom line is that anytime there is a dictatorship takeover in Illarion, there will almost always be players who automatically feel their freedom to act in-game threatened.
Sure, you "can ignorantly point your finger at another culture", if you honestly think you are adequatelly informed about German mass media. However, it's likely that you don't actually disagree with my view of American culture, but rather that you disagree that it influences your character's reactions.
@Pellandria:
I agree with what you just said, so I don't understand what exactly you are disagreeing with what I said. It seems we both concluded that when the characters can't win against a takeover, the players will either stop playing normally or complain OOC.
- Pellandria
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Well maybe I misunderstood your post as a whole, but I gathered that you think, that our chars would just have "acted" and "resisted" because a gm would overrule our rp, while I think that its just natural for someone to oppose an invader.
The problem I have is with all those chars that do not even care for the war or sit around in Bane like there was nothing happend, this is why I generally dislike huge quests or quests as such, there will always be someone who jsut can't be bothered to react to the circumstances, the same as the demon took over bane, there were chars claiming nothing hapening and Bane is clear, while others rp'ed that there where flies and poisioness fog and what not there, but of course, even in Darloks quest we had people like that...demanding that the quests ends, because they can't cut tree's..
After all the gm's should have been aware of the fact that players/chars will not take this "we stomp the quest in your face, if you want it or not" way of questing ligthly, as I said before all the action that where taking against the prince...attacking a convoy with supplys, killing a leading commander of the army, killing/bringing down the prince to his knees ~several~ times had no impact on the quest itself. Which is a general "mistake" of all the gm quests I have seen so far in my opinion, gm's take one goal..and mostly just one goal only for a quest..and than push everything in that direction, which leads to many missed rp possibilitys.
The problem I have is with all those chars that do not even care for the war or sit around in Bane like there was nothing happend, this is why I generally dislike huge quests or quests as such, there will always be someone who jsut can't be bothered to react to the circumstances, the same as the demon took over bane, there were chars claiming nothing hapening and Bane is clear, while others rp'ed that there where flies and poisioness fog and what not there, but of course, even in Darloks quest we had people like that...demanding that the quests ends, because they can't cut tree's..
After all the gm's should have been aware of the fact that players/chars will not take this "we stomp the quest in your face, if you want it or not" way of questing ligthly, as I said before all the action that where taking against the prince...attacking a convoy with supplys, killing a leading commander of the army, killing/bringing down the prince to his knees ~several~ times had no impact on the quest itself. Which is a general "mistake" of all the gm quests I have seen so far in my opinion, gm's take one goal..and mostly just one goal only for a quest..and than push everything in that direction, which leads to many missed rp possibilitys.
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I honestly can't remember doing something like this, in fact I can't remember this episode at all. But me not remembering this, doesn't mean I didn't do something like this at all. Even I started out as a complete noob someday back.Salathe wrote:I remember once watching Darlok (before northerot) kill someone for being annoying, then trapped his ghost (bannable offense) behind the bar in the tavern for 10+ minutes (which at the time lowered every skill by about 15 levels). Tialdin was present for this and Darlok was claimed innocent and the victim was actually thrown in jail.
I can just hope that you are mistaking me, or that it was (, in the wild, wild west of the old days,) to stop a troublemaker from doing to much harm.
We players were pretty vigilante back in the days of double-shield-invincibilty and shadow-hiding-windarrow-sniper.
@Mesha
Unfortunatly I missed all the fun, but I read about in othe boards, but I can tell, that if I had the time to play, I really would like to play in this new Trolls Bane.
Let this new situation sink in for a while and don't rub the players sore point by keeping a discussion on it alive. As a GM you will from time to time have to take the unpopular route for some players.
Given the fact that players tend only to see what you are taking from them and always disregard what you are providing them instead, you'll never please them at all. (Unless you give out epic items.)
The only thing I can comment on before going to college, is this: People cannot influence the Prince. This is untrue as a whole. Edward Cromwell and Roland Ross were one of the few who tried to influence the Prince in a clever way. Artimer Fault has also tried to influence the Prince, but on a wrong assumption. (Attacking a Salkamaerian in his honour is not the way to go) Roland Ross and Edward Cromwell have retained their noble position within the game. They will have great power on the way the town is run, for the Prince, even though he is a totalitarian ruler, still puts a great deal of faith in the nobility. Taliss, till the end, could chose to keep his Duke title, and he would have stayed "alive" as it may.
As it stands, I still do have time before college, so onto the next point. Attacking the Prince after he won a duel against Taliss. I do think I made clear in the battle that once you were teleported to the library not to come out again. This is because the library is the safe haven of the quest, where characters would not be attacked. I think I made this clear, but if I did not, my apologies. Now, back in time. When you are all holed up in the library, and outside the Prince would still have many soldiers wandering around (which, even though I'm a GM, had to remove so we could get a nice RP-ending to that day). That RP-ending was the duel between Taliss and the Prince. We duelled over Troll's Bane. After I win a duel against your supposed leader, surrounded by my supposed warriors and knights and officers (who were not there, for they would have killed you all in watching, therefor they were removed), attacking me would only indicate that all the characters there held no honour. What, in your character-concept, Pellandria, would allow you do to that? But I digress.
I see this quest has sparked up a lot of sheer hatred. So from now on, the Prince can be assassinated/kidnapped/taken from this island (perhaps even brought back for an invasion on the mainland). PM me a plan (and please, a good one), if your character is in a position for some-such. I can recognise when I made a mistake in an action, or a way of thinking. I think there is no way a big quest can work, for if there is a way to win, you will want to win. And that is the problem with bigger quests in general: People hate losing. I can have players lose in small quests, because the reasonable players will find a way to incorporate that loss into their RP, and they win on other terrains.
P.S. Kalimar: I cannot RP with two people at the same time, especially not when the NPCs I am talking through are immobile, and you are asking my NPCs for what appeared to be a night out. Also, didn't you walk away after my guard told you off? It was late in Europe, and I was heading to bed. I have a real life, and I cannot do everything. I have been ingame a lot in the past few weeks just to RP every single role there was around this quest, all the while having to write essays. I do hope I have your understanding in this.
P.P.S. Djironnyma: My deepest apologies on the account we shall not speak about here, and about the name thing: Perhaps we should have done more research. Sometimes I find the wiki empty on subjects I want to learn about, and as it stands, this thing did have information about itself on the wiki. I do think Anarius is a name that is faintly elven? Or perhaps not in Illarion elven....
P.P.P.S. College!
As it stands, I still do have time before college, so onto the next point. Attacking the Prince after he won a duel against Taliss. I do think I made clear in the battle that once you were teleported to the library not to come out again. This is because the library is the safe haven of the quest, where characters would not be attacked. I think I made this clear, but if I did not, my apologies. Now, back in time. When you are all holed up in the library, and outside the Prince would still have many soldiers wandering around (which, even though I'm a GM, had to remove so we could get a nice RP-ending to that day). That RP-ending was the duel between Taliss and the Prince. We duelled over Troll's Bane. After I win a duel against your supposed leader, surrounded by my supposed warriors and knights and officers (who were not there, for they would have killed you all in watching, therefor they were removed), attacking me would only indicate that all the characters there held no honour. What, in your character-concept, Pellandria, would allow you do to that? But I digress.
I see this quest has sparked up a lot of sheer hatred. So from now on, the Prince can be assassinated/kidnapped/taken from this island (perhaps even brought back for an invasion on the mainland). PM me a plan (and please, a good one), if your character is in a position for some-such. I can recognise when I made a mistake in an action, or a way of thinking. I think there is no way a big quest can work, for if there is a way to win, you will want to win. And that is the problem with bigger quests in general: People hate losing. I can have players lose in small quests, because the reasonable players will find a way to incorporate that loss into their RP, and they win on other terrains.
P.S. Kalimar: I cannot RP with two people at the same time, especially not when the NPCs I am talking through are immobile, and you are asking my NPCs for what appeared to be a night out. Also, didn't you walk away after my guard told you off? It was late in Europe, and I was heading to bed. I have a real life, and I cannot do everything. I have been ingame a lot in the past few weeks just to RP every single role there was around this quest, all the while having to write essays. I do hope I have your understanding in this.
P.P.S. Djironnyma: My deepest apologies on the account we shall not speak about here, and about the name thing: Perhaps we should have done more research. Sometimes I find the wiki empty on subjects I want to learn about, and as it stands, this thing did have information about itself on the wiki. I do think Anarius is a name that is faintly elven? Or perhaps not in Illarion elven....
P.P.P.S. College!
I think more people might welcome this OOCly, if you explained your plans in detail. There was never anything specific mentioned about the reasons for a GM run town and I personally don't see what a GM can do that a player can't do with GM support. This needs to be clarified before anyone can even begin to form a real opinion, which is based on more than vague assumptions.
As for the quest itself, I'd have praised your name for all eternity if you leveled the whole town in this war and rebuilt it completely differently afterwards. The second battle could have been so much more exciting than killing one soldier after the other until it all suddenly ends just because someone ordered everybody inside. More catapult fire, tunnels, buildings burning down and most of the melee combat afterwards, it could have felt more like a siege, instead of perhaps the most pyrrhic victory of all time.
My worst fear is that nothing will actually change at all. Bane stays the same ill-constructed, dreadfully boring looking and unreal feeling mess of a town without law enforcement or any kind of common interests for the inhabitants. I really hope to be proven wrong there.
As for the quest itself, I'd have praised your name for all eternity if you leveled the whole town in this war and rebuilt it completely differently afterwards. The second battle could have been so much more exciting than killing one soldier after the other until it all suddenly ends just because someone ordered everybody inside. More catapult fire, tunnels, buildings burning down and most of the melee combat afterwards, it could have felt more like a siege, instead of perhaps the most pyrrhic victory of all time.
My worst fear is that nothing will actually change at all. Bane stays the same ill-constructed, dreadfully boring looking and unreal feeling mess of a town without law enforcement or any kind of common interests for the inhabitants. I really hope to be proven wrong there.
- The great one
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Wow Dyluck, that was a pretty dumb assed thing to say. That could be considered a hate speech or racist to some, just s you know.Dyluck wrote:It should be pretty clear by now, that throughout Illarion's history in any situation where a force appears to rule and cannot be removed, players will almost always refuse to accept it as a change in scenario for their CHARACTERS to play in, and instead irrationally take it as a threat to the freedom of the PLAYERS to do what they want. It's also not surprising that it is once again the "english" players who feel this way more so, seeing as how the value of freedom and opposing evil dictatorship rule is a theme that has been grinded especially into American culture over the past decade, and can be difficult for them to filter from their view of the game.