Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 7:12 pm
The rune system is fine, those spells have QWAN for a reason.
I think this is consensus, solve riddles, explore dungeons, read in libraries, solve quests, bash some monsters and an archmage you are. Does this contradict the rune book approach? Not at all I think.I think a temple/dungeon system with puzzles etc. that requires some exploration, thinking, roleplaying and maybe some teamwork (perhaps with other aspiring mages) would be a much better system.
Yeah because the mages player had ~soooo~ much to say in the decission concerning the magical system...riiiiiggghhhtttt.Mr. Cromwell wrote: You point out the problem and just say ha ha ha? No wonder that the combined expertise of our mage players resulted in this mighty clustersmile being the way it is.
good point here. (made bigger). Now i have suggested this a number of times and other then shooting down my suggested location NOONE has commented on this idea: NATURAL MAGIC ROOM. As I have said before there are many benefits to this:Athian wrote:@Cromwell:
Your comments on the commotio spells are pretty much entirely wrong ^^ and or not really a problem in the long run.
@Estralis
I can see the benefits of idea of puzzling/questing/monster killing/rune booking. But i'm also wondering whats going to stop the over saturation of magic related items. Whats going to stop any mage/strong fighter from simply stocking and selling magic items? I don't think it really matters how many parts to a book there are. after thinking it over i can't see a way around such a problem other then people being punished for doing something that this new system has allowed them.
-----
Somehow the ideas are all there but it seems overly complicated. Having people stay motivated long enough to create, implement and balance this system seems like its going to be a lot more work then simply fixing the flaws in the current teaching system, OR providing NPC's for lower end spells.
I'd love to see some of these concepts involved in the game. Though I imagine the RPG section may become filled with newbie posts like "Need help for rune hunt, pt of six pls" and other such fun things. To that effect what in this system is actually, better or easier then the prior one? In the end it seems if your a newbie you'll still need to rely on several people to help you out. Considering our community isn't a HUGE, it will still bring frustration when all the strong fighters/mages aren't online to babysit someone through a dungeon and camp a monster drop...
Solving riddles will fall through quickly too because people will simply share the answers with others so they won't even have to think about it. even if we had 20-30 different it won't solve the issue of lazy people getting the answers from lazier people, and that kind of kills the whole point of riddles in the first place.
Long story short, good idea (new maps and areas are never a bad bonus^^) but think it'll end up falling through as fast if not faster then past systems.
so make it from stone. you can't burn stone, and as far as i know that is the only way to actually destroy something IG.Vern Kron wrote:Simple. It will be taken control of in seconds or destroyed.
Vern Kron wrote:It also does not fix the other problems of the teaching system.
To your first question:Tanistian_Kanea wrote:so make it from stone. you can't burn stone, and as far as i know that is the only way to actually destroy something IG.Vern Kron wrote:Simple. It will be taken control of in seconds or destroyed.
how exactly would it be taken control of?
Vern Kron wrote:It also does not fix the other problems of the teaching system.
Ok. I missed something here. WHAT other problems?
Finally no one really knows how much this will actually effect the current balance (and that is what we are trying to achieve) it may be enough to bring balance.
For the town thing, this would mean the DEVELOPERS allow this to happen. Also, this should not be NEAR a town or guild in the first place.Azuros wrote:To your first question:Tanistian_Kanea wrote:so make it from stone. you can't burn stone, and as far as i know that is the only way to actually destroy something IG.Vern Kron wrote:Simple. It will be taken control of in seconds or destroyed.
how exactly would it be taken control of?
Vern Kron wrote:It also does not fix the other problems of the teaching system.
Ok. I missed something here. WHAT other problems?
Finally no one really knows how much this will actually effect the current balance (and that is what we are trying to achieve) it may be enough to bring balance.
A guild, town, or group with authority might decide to extend their reach to this area and close it off to others.
To your second question:
There's the problem of teachers and students both needing relatively high magic skills to teach/learn runes. There's also the issue of certain mages being unable to teach some runes at all because of imperfect attributes.
Then the DM's will be to blame.Vern Kron wrote:Yes. People would try to take control of it, and would have a right to. Thats the joy of rp.
Destroy it with gm help? Yes, that might be allowable as well, due to actions a character does. Once again, RP.
I thought this paragraph gave strong enough hints that it's not just monster drops. You know, on the.. first post about the system?- Runes are gained through studying books in libraries (perhaps as a function of stats+library research+ancient), quests, battling monsters and searching hidden dungeons. Moreover, they are mainly found in pieces which you copy down (except for ubermonsters which have a chance of dropping a whole book, or monsters which drop ready pieces) giving a function to parchment and ink.
Mr. Cromwell wrote:Clearly if there's no middleground between owning everything in sight and sucking, then there's something wrong. I mean, it works (suggesting you're the one who's owning) but it should work better.
I thought this paragraph gave strong enough hints that it's not just monster drops. You know, on the.. first post about the system?- Runes are gained through studying books in libraries (perhaps as a function of stats+library research+ancient), quests, battling monsters and searching hidden dungeons. Moreover, they are mainly found in pieces which you copy down (except for ubermonsters which have a chance of dropping a whole book, or monsters which drop ready pieces) giving a function to parchment and ink.
If you really were under the impression that I'd suggest that mages should fight monsters for every single (rather, as I pointed out elsewhere, monsters would be a supplementary source of rune pages.. the intention was not that you'd sit somewhere collecting pages by killing reds) parchment, I am quite disappointed. If my intention was to suggest something as dumb, I'd do it with style:
A deadmatch arena, with two mages fighting barefisted to the death for a rune-book which a GM throws in the middle of the Arena.
Seriously: What you are pointing out balance issues related to the distribution of runes. Which can be, like, you know.. balanced. Studying, quests, puzzles, exploring dungeons, + voluntary mage teacher.. and monsters, all would be potential sources. Instead of not reading (;)) my posts, you could give a thought on 'how' you'd actually distribute the runes via these methods, if hypothetically getting a full rune from a teacher is no longer possible automatically?
Personally i don't find anything wrong with the magic system. Its really just as powerful as it needs to be. The only thing one can honestly fault is that magic causes harm at a distance so those whom oppose a magic character might get killed before they reach them. That exactly how it should be. magic folk have much weaker bodies then warriors, they need to be powerful or they will die.By the way, as Estralis mentioned: it's not a given that spells shall eternally work the way they do now..
All of these three people play the game on and off again, leaving partly for months before they come back that means 9 disgrunteled students who blame the other teachers for not teaching them, not to forget that Kaila and Alex HAVE acces to the teaching room, so there is no excuse not for teaching, so yeah there goes your argument..useless.Pancho wrote: "I do not want to beg a guild on my knees so they grant me to teach in their teaching room." Said by three people (Athian, Kaila, AlexRose) who obviously play mages that could teach people, if it weren't for the fact that they have no teaching room.
That'd be 9 more student slots.
As said before the only one who would gain something from a free teaching room is maybe athian, if he would play constantly, the other ones have access and I know of no other Teacher, who has BHONA, but is not a member of any academy.Pancho wrote: "Let's make a freely accesible teaching room."
That'd help these 3 (or maybe more) people to play their mages again and teach people.
Wow suprise, logical argumentation, really well thought....Pancho wrote: "Somebody can easily destroy it with GM help."
When was the last time something in-game with significant importance was destroyed with GM help?
From what I've gathered there's the Temple which nobody just walked up at and "destroyed" it.
The same thing as before, fortifications that need to be breached and defenders that need to be put down.Pancho wrote: There's a magical castle in Varshikar which nobody just walked up at and "destroyed" it.
Because it makes sense for many chars ig, either to reduce the accesebility, because it makes ~sense~ from the char perspectiv or because..well lets see..because its no freaking building with no guards and nothing and thus easy to destroy, maybe just for the sake of destroying things or on the other side just for people to claim it yet again.Pancho wrote: What makes you think any GM would allow a building of such importance to a large aspect of the game (an acessible teaching room)
be destroyed just because some people thought it'd be a cool idea?
Allright I will be easy on you, because you are new, but that I should just answer with a *facepalm* picture and nothing more, but for the sake of the argument we repeat what was said before, you will free 3 teaching spots, that will be filled by a few people, who than leave or the teacher himself likes to leave the game yet again for a few months, the teaching is not a "here you go have 28 runes now go out in the world" its a half an year effort maybe even a whole if you want to be teacher, by than many MANY Newbies who don't like the game overall will have left the game...you might come here for the magic, but you stay for the game, if you just stay in the game because you want to learn magic...than I must say the game might not be for you.Pancho wrote: "That doesn't help. The ratio of people wanting to learn magic to the one of people teaching is out of proportion."
With this free teaching room 3 people would teach again, equaling in 9 open teaching spots for other people.
In a community that peaks at 30-40 people online at the same time 9 more student slots ought to be more than enough,
even more as this might attract other characters capable of teaching but not being able to because they do not wish to participate in what the guilds having a teaching room stand for.
Its what the past has shown us, even if we got 9 more teaching spots those will be filled in a few weeks, THAN we got more students that wait half a year, so your math is broken...because its not only 40 chars playing the game all night and day...Pancho wrote: Where do you take your numbers from? How do you deduct that there's an amount of magic students these 3 (or possibly more) teachers can not cope with?
I once made the work to reply to the application from around the 30 or so people I wrotte to 2 only replied, that amount of work is beyond anything usefull and what do you want to writte anyway" ok we took a look at it..pull a ticket and hope for luck"?Pancho wrote: Most of the people writing an application on the magic academy thread have long left the game again because they didn't receive any response (as someone said, the applications aren't read anymore, save are replied to).
Because you met me along with other people, but you mainly talked to me I will reply to that here, after all I don't see a reason why not, but first of all you should notice that you interrupted a meeting between several chars that wanted to hold a lesson, thus every talk naturally cuts as short as possible to get the rune lesson done.Pancho wrote: I'll be honest, I'm biased about this topic due to personal experience (I want to play a mage too).
However after my first contact with the magic academy I don't get my hopes up too high.
Lets reflect the situation,. there were several hostile npcs walking around, naturally someone unknown will not be welcomed, furthermore after tresspassing is ~clearly~ not allowed, every tresspasser in the academy grounds can be thrown out if we want, seeing how you didn't care to ask for permission first, but just stood there, you should not be supprised to get such an question.Pancho wrote: It's actualy quite funny that people wonder why the academy is deserted as it is right now,
when those that try to get a character there get every resistance in their way they could possibly get.
I made a character and wanted to stay there asking to be granted to "research" in their library, see what happened:
Being greeted with "Tell me one reason I shouldn't blast you for treespassing on our island."
doesn't realy make you feel welcome.
Rules of the academy, decided on by 5 different people, a char who actually works to increase the security in the academy shouldn't act any different.Pancho wrote: After stating my request to see the library I get told "Only magic students and mages of the academy are allowed inside."
You can just be a member if you are a student, the academy is not for teacherhunting, you need to meet the teacher in the island or activly search for him or writte a dove...or just have pure luck.Pancho wrote: So humor me, I'll just join the academy then yes? "Sure if you find a mage willing to take you as a student."
Wait wait wait, I actualy came here so I could FIND one in the first place. Now I need one to be allowed to stay here anyway?
Ohh please your background story wasn't even that great "I came in contact with item x and mysteriously lost my powers and knowledge" what do you expect people to think "omgawsh such a poor little halfing, come and have an artefact, maybe you can go trougth our most secret archives aswell, even trougth I do not know you".Pancho wrote: "Why do you even want to study in our library?" "Oh I need informations on <topic x>" ((part of my characters background story)).
"I'm sure you won't find anything about that in our archives." Yeah duh, I knew that aswell, I just had that as an ice breaker and possibly RP device so others would take interrest in my character. What was that you said about being original and cunning to woo some mage into teaching you? Stand out of the crowd and all that?
Yes its paranoid...does it fit to the char ..yes.. so what we have here is maybe a pure bad luck, you met a char who is pretty secure about the academy and you are someone who wants to get into the academy, furthermore you first defend Djironima, even while you said before hand "yeah I don't know those other guys", so do you really think someone trusts someone who just comes up to you(allready making a rulebreak and "bringing" enemy humanoid npcs with them"), claiming not to know a sworn enemy and than yet defend them?Pancho wrote: "Why should I trust you? What tells me you're not a Temple spy or one sent by Djironnyma?"
Woah woah wait, what? Sure, NOTHING can make you trust me, I know that perfectly well, but isn't it a bit paranoid to smell spys and assasins on any guy that comes to you? Do you even want people to rp in the academy. Yes? Well why do you make it that hard for them to get there then?
Once again same argument, after several people not only tried to break into the academy and also succeded in doing so she won't just let anyone unknown in, would she know you and than you asked...than things would have been different.Pancho wrote: "So there realy is no chance you'd let me stay here so I might meet other mages that might know anything about <topic x>?"
-> "Well actually there aren't many mages here currently..." Well duh of course, if you keep people out that might rp with other mages so they just stand around bored in a big empty academy I wouldn't stay there either.
Now to get so low and not only cut real big parts of the discussion between the chars but also to "forget" to mention that the two students came out and actually tried to see what the holdup is, is pretty much speaking for yourself.Pancho wrote: "Anything else or can I cast a portal to your home again?" Uhm... yeah whatever, send me away, I don't know if it's even worth trying any longer, obviously you've got some pretty secret magical devices in your dorm rooms and library so you can't just take people inside I understand.
See, now yet again something widly amusing.Pancho wrote: So after experiencing this, I can figure why people like Athian or AlexRose aren't too keen on becoming a part of the Academy, they realy give the impression that they want to keep to themselves exclusively.