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I think it is not possible to save a skill of more than 100. Not sure though.

Instead of this just let them learn e.g. 5 times faster?

(btw, a bonus of fix 20 points is bad. There is a possibility to implement it using the skill system which calculates the learning effort relative to the current skill)

Well, Jewls. This is a very reasonable system all in all, as I didn't really want to suggest a system which imposes "strict" limitations on what people can do. However it seems to me, that you have more personally at stake here than me, as I don't actually use combat skills and for ed those are almost irrelevant, unlike smithing and fighting are for you. Perhaps you project your own personal skill-concerns somehow to me, in the assumption that everyone else is as selfish and self-centered as you are? Rest assured, I'm not looking forward to pwn people ingame or whatever, you don't have to look over your shoulder (any more than usual ) when playing with Julius. I'm looking for balance and benefit for those players who want to focus on certain skills and don't really understand the river-crying and accusations for personal gain seeking. If you really think that I make proposals here to score a few skill points for my character, then you don't have a clue.

Here's a treat from Nitram for you, maybe you remember it? Consider this and your attitude and which one of us two "might" have ulterior motives when it comes to the skillgain of other people.

PS: Julius, only because YOU had to stand in a dungeons for hours it does not mean that every futher generation of characters has to do this as well.

(PS: The right answer is you. )

@Pharse

Hm. That's possible and actually quite good idea, though it doesn't solve the problem of relative skilling at the end levels. Though, if one gets there five times faster when focusing, I'm not sure if that's an issue. I'm just concerned that a comparative malus (eg. 5 times slower skillgain) would not touch old chars at all, thus IMO necessitating a skill deduction/cap of somesort. Are artificial skillcaps possible?

That might even be a better solution, thanks for bringing the possiblility it to our attention. Then it would be just the task of figuring out a suitable amount for that.

I really, REALLY like this idea.

But I would suggest choosing a path increases the rate at which you learn skills in that given area, as well as slowing the rate you learn them in non chosen paths.
And maybe having the non chosen route max out at fifty.
That way the jack of all trades could be better then a warrior at crafting, and a crafter at fighting. But not as good as either at their chosen professions. Since if I only dabble in cooking it's unlikely I'll be making a perfect Soo-flay! (( I know that's mispelled, don't bring it up! ))
And maybe at the extra levels of craftmanship have the item quality of IMMACULATE

Lets just pray that not many would make a new char, take a warrior path and get to level 100 in a few days (due to faster skilling) then cause trouble all over the place. Probably they won't care much even if the char got perma-death since it's easy to re-make the char

Greetings!

Guess my main problem with that proposal is that a warrior can still be a formidable crafter but the crafter will be an easy pray for any mage or fighter.

How so? Easy...the quality of the crafted item is highly dependant on the quality of the used tool. With an imbued gem one can make almost if not all items available with perfect quality and durability. Especially on a 'good day'.

However, think of what a gap of 40 skillpoints in fighting will do...

This means: the fighter - smith does not lose a damn, while the smith - fighter loses the ability to effectivly defend himself - which he only can, when altering his attributes at the very beginning to be more fighter oriented anyways.

Mr. Cromwell wrote:Well, Jewls. This is a very reasonable system all in all, as I didn't really want to suggest a system which imposes "strict" limitations on what people can do. However it seems to me, that you have more personally at stake here than me, as I don't actually use combat skills and for ed those are almost irrelevant, unlike smithing and fighting are for you. Perhaps you project your own personal skill-concerns somehow to me, in the assumption that everyone else is as selfish and self-centered as you are? Rest assured, I'm not looking forward to pwn people ingame or whatever, you don't have to look over your shoulder (any more than usual ) when playing with Julius. I'm looking for balance and benefit for those players who want to focus on certain skills and don't really understand the river-crying and accusations for personal gain seeking. If you really think that I make proposals here to score a few skill points for my character, then you don't have a clue.

Here's a treat from Nitram for you, maybe you remember it? Consider this and your attitude and which one of us two "might" have ulterior motives when it comes to the skillgain of other people.

PS: Julius, only because YOU had to stand in a dungeons for hours it does not mean that every futher generation of characters has to do this as well.

(PS: The right answer is you. )

I no longer do PVP duels, nor do I use meh smithing skills for personal gain ig. So no, I have nothing to lose with this system. Not too mention, with the current attribute build, Jewls is limited to being a decent warrior and a alright smith even at maxed levels. Perhaps you should consider your attitude next name you plant a large sign on me declaring me a strict PGer who hates any system that takes that time I spent away.

I'm completely unbiased (shown by my above credentials) about anything to do with skills and I still dislike the system. The attribute system already achieves (noted by the firm example above, "decent warrior and average smith even with maxed levels"). I really don't see the benefits of making a complex system that promotes even more pging, headache, and the fact that the system that is in place actually takes away the ability of characters being jacks.

Harald Hradradr wrote:Greetings!

Guess my main problem with that proposal is that a warrior can still be a formidable crafter but the crafter will be an easy pray for any mage or fighter.

How so? Easy...the quality of the crafted item is highly dependant on the quality of the used tool. With an imbued gem one can make almost if not all items available with perfect quality and durability. Especially on a 'good day'.

However, think of what a gap of 40 skillpoints in fighting will do...

This means: the fighter - smith does not lose a damn, while the smith - fighter loses the ability to effectivly defend himself - which he only can, when altering his attributes at the very beginning to be more fighter oriented anyways.

Make crafting much more dependant on attributes.

A crafter should be easy prey for a fighter, dont see what the problem is there. Hire a bodyguard, and reduce the amount of money drops from killing monsters. Simple.

What about following modification about the path system:

Instead of having paths which group a lot of single skills, let each character select up to N skills which define his personal path.
Assumed there are 20 skills to select from and N = 3, this would give leed in 6840 possible DIFFERENT character builds (I hope I have calculated correctly this time)!

Another addition: Since I think that 80% skill level for the none path skills is still too much, a path could constist of N major skills (100% level possible), O average skills (80% level possible) and P minor skills (60% level possible). The remaining skills could reach maximum 40%. This would increase the number of different character builds again.

Think of following examples for fighters:

Assumed: N=1 (one major skill), O=2 (two average), P=2 (two minor)

Athletic Sword Fighter:
Major skill: slashing
Average: Dodging, Tactics
Minor: Parry, Wrestling

Knight:
Major skill: slashing
Average: Parry, Tactics
Minor: Dodge, Distance attack

Stupid (meaning that he has no idea of tactics) Orc:
Major skill: concussion
Average: Parry, Dodge
Minor: Tactics, Wrestling

Only focussing on the group of fighting skills, there would be al lot of interesting skill combinations.

Increasing the values of N, O, P could leed to more broadly skilled characters, if desired.

Another example, assumed N=2, O=3, P=3

Crafters, who can defend hisself:
Major 1: Smithing | Tailoring
Major 1: Mining | Herblore
Average 1: Slashing | Distance Attack
Average 2: Parry | Dodge
Average 3: Tactics | Dagger
Minor 1: Dodge | Parry
Minor 2: Cooking | Cooking
Minor 3: Lumberjack | Lumberjack

Think!
Discuss!

JonathanSmith wrote:Discuss!

You can expect a call from my lawyer about that!

--

Also could we remove the profanity from the title?

JonathanSmith wrote:Think!
Discuss!

100% disagree, there are only minuses compared with the current system. And another thing, it's basically a class system with more choices than the usual knight, archer etc. Choose the wrong combination you are screwed. A little tweak with the weapon/armor, you might ended up in a mess without being able to do much.

Conclusion: too restricted and no bonus. No need any change with the current system at all, since you can restricted yourself in the current system as well. Except losing the good point of this game (engine wise), there is nothing else the proposed system has to offer. Not to mention there already is UO shard that pretty much give the same system, actually that UO shard gives more flexibility with the restriction.

And probably too much trouble to actually implement this system. It's better to spend the time making priest and bard system.

ogerawa wrote:100% disagree, there are only minuses compared with the current system. And another thing, it's basically a class system with more choices than the usual knight, archer etc. Choose the wrong combination you are screwed. A little tweak with the weapon/armor, you might ended up in a mess without being able to do much.

Conclusion: too restricted and no bonus. No need any change with the current system at all, since you can restricted yourself in the current system as well. Except losing the good point of this game (engine wise), there is nothing else the proposed system has to offer. Not to mention there already is UO shard that pretty much give the same system, actually that UO shard gives more flexibility with the restriction.

And probably too much trouble to actually implement this system. It's better to spend the time making priest and bard system.

/signed

JonathanSmith wrote: Discuss!

ummmm, i really dislike the idea behind this system, as it limits not the group of skills you can train (as proposed in the other) but the -exact- skills you can train, which i dont think we need in any way, shape, form, or fashion. I do like the original proposed idea, for the grouping of diffrent skills and having that entire set be capped lower. Since everyone is screaming about 80 being to high of a cap, why not find a middle ground somewhere around 60-70? i personally think 3/4 full (75) should be fine and dandy for the other skills, and if that still doesnt please everyone, then why not have it grouped into 3 sets, with a lower cap on the third, least important for that path, skills? Thats my two sense, but as far as the idea posted that i quoted from, i really do not like it, at all.

pharse's contribution to this topic makes most sense IMHO.

The original proposal leads us to 3 or 4 types of characters: fighters, crafters, mages and druids. This is in my opinion no real change compared to the current situation. And that's the reason why I proposed the specialization.

What I like from the original proposal is the "boost" of the skills of selected path.

Estralis Seborian wrote:pharse's contribution to this topic makes most sense IMHO.

about the increased gain? i agree, although i do think it should only be around 3 times as fast, which would still be slow but wouldnt increase it all that much.

Hadrian_Abela wrote:

JonathanSmith wrote:Discuss!

You can expect a call from my lawyer about that!

One lawsuit coming right up.

The proposal sounds alright in theory but the biggest problem i see with this is creating any downside at all.

This same situation could be solved in a few ways. we've still got a few types or things (armor and weapons, as well as many items) that are unmakable ig. Why not allow crafters that follow a said path to be able to make some of these unmakable items if they have chosen the path of said craft and make super specialzed items (magic swords, rare armor, maybe even some static items like table and chairs) with a degree of difficulty and gathering required) when they reach 100% skill. if you are going to rise the learning rate ofr a crafting skill that is followed to it's end then i would say no more then twice as fast.

Also, NO PVP or PVE skills should be involved in those kind of changes.

While some might argue that fighter or mage is a profession i highly disagree. If a fighter or mage or archer or warlock or a halfing barbarian want to fight monsters for coins thats all well and good, however the misbalance of penalizing or enchancing the way skills work in the PVP(E) systems will have later and possibly unforseen consquences. for now i think it would be wise to veiw things as they are. Warrior(etc) is your character lifestyle which he can choose to use as a living or not.

In that same sense said PVP/(E) skills would raise or drop as they normally do. however said character i feel should still be able to pick up skills in crafting as the normally do, without suffering ill effects of a contribed system. They will be limited already in there capcity by whatever stats the pick.

Sooo instead of penalizing anyone (somehow i'm always saying this) lets reward those who follow a profession. We really really need to stop taking things away form people and start working on improvement without need to reductions.

however the misbalance of penalizing or enchancing the way skills work in the PVP(E) systems will have later and possibly unforseen consquences

I am also concerned about this. IF the object is to enhance crafters mainly....not having warrior/crafters (because it seems crafters as warriors doesn't appear to bother most), then instead of changing the way skills work, get ideas for directly addressing that one issue?

I personally see the fact of having the possibility (only possibllity) of maxing all skills is just wrong. I'm pretty new around here and I'm starting to really dislike this Idea. This system is still developing, of course, and I won't criticise any of the programmer's work, for sure, they're making this possible, and I love the rp involved, but:

A real person in life must make choices. Choices that forge their lives. If you want to be a virtuoso with guitar, you gotta train all your youth, 6 hours a day, and watch your hands. If you are a smith, you won't be able to play guitar never (because your hands have adapted to heavy work, not fine arrangements) and a fighter could easilly torn you to pieces, since you're not used to tactics, dodgin... If you are a scholar who has devoted his life to magic, you won't be able to cut down the most tiny tree, at least by mortal means. If you want to be a kiking-ass warrior, then forget about... something, because time is finite and you cannot learn everything in your life.

Of course, in a RPG, time is "virtually" infinite, 'cause the training is (thank god) much less than what would take in real life. If the focus of this game is rp, then it should rp from the begining, as it would ocurr to any of this characters in rl (if there were demons, goblins and magic in rl ) and reflect that choices the character has needed to make (or someone else has taken for him, depends on your prefered background). That's why skilling all level to the Max should be, IMO, and i really love JoathanSmith's suggestion.

Manuelman wrote: A real person in life must make choices. Choices that forge their lives. If you want to be a virtuoso with guitar, you gotta train all your youth, 6 hours a day, and watch your hands. If you are a smith, you won't be able to play guitar never (because your hands have adapted to heavy work, not fine arrangements) and a fighter could easilly torn you to pieces, since you're not used to tactics, dodgin... If you are a scholar who has devoted his life to magic, you won't be able to cut down the most tiny tree, at least by mortal means. If you want to be a kiking-ass warrior, then forget about... something, because time is finite and you cannot learn everything in your life.

I think thats wrong. Sorry. I can do many things in a very effective manner. I can play the trumpet, I have the ability (should I so choose) to play other instruments, I can do heavy labor, I play sports -and- I am a student in school. So, explain to me, how if you learn something, and then lose interest and shift interest to something else, why you should be penalized for it? If you want to play your character as a specialised character, so be it. You are forgetting that as your character crafts, its not as though time suddenly -stops-. Its their time as well as the PO's going into the game, and the only reason they are able to do the things that many cannot, is they spend time doing it. I enjoy playing my character as a general crafter. The only thing I am against is the warrior crafter, which basically means a warrior who can make their own things.

Because you are not doing heavy dutties since you were 10, (like smithing). If you would, you would have a hand like a hammer, strong, but unable to do precise labor. I also play guitar, quite well, and bass, quite well too, and piano, not so well, and drums, poorly, and i've had heavy dutties, as well as worked for the open public, attending people. And i'm studying History on the university. Therefore, I should have like, 50 on guitar, 40 on bass 40 on history 20 on piano, 7 on heavy dutties, 9 speech... It's not that i'm saying that you could ONLY perform one duty. You know how much training time must've used, for example, john petrucci to play guitar like he does? Of course, that keeps him from MAXIMIZING other skills. I'm not saying that he couldn't write the most simple story, or that he couldn't chop down a tree, given enough time, or that he couldn't beat someone in a fight (even given his small frame) But that John petrucci wouldn't win Mike Thyson in a fight and would never be able to even face him, not even a street brawler. That's my point. You can only specialise in one or two things in life. anything besides that is powergaming, with all letters. Of course, that doesn't mean you must be directed towards one path right from the beginning, of course not, I don't even know what I would end up working as... But, at a level like, 50 or something, I should start making a decision, because if I want to specialice in that thing, it would steal a lo t of time that I could use for other skills. Of course, this won't happen IG, 'cause the character doesn't need to sleep, nor have a social live, nor I need to pay bills, earn money to pay those bills, earn money to eat (i0ve learned that a fishing rod and a cooking spoon is all i need to keep myself alive). Therefore, i can powergame without many troubles, if I have the patience- So a system must be the one to reflect this issue. Not in a D&D way, but somehow, really

And just posting this, i just came across an idea

Taking back JonathanSmith's idea, and mixing it with the original

Let's say you have N primary skills, o secondaries and all the rest...

But you don't need to choose them right away...

You start of having every skill at o (just like now), then you start traing them, and, when you get to 30 (number is arbitrary and subject of modification), more or less, you can't continue training it, until you choose that as a primary/secondary skill. when you have, , then you have chosen your first skill. You can even postpone this, if you want, so you can try other skills, or just train basic skills until you go for the primary/secondary ones. Every time you chose, the unchosen skills become harder to train. That way, you could chose your level of specialization.

You can still be a man/woman/thing of all, but you will never be as skilled in every subject as an specialist, still, you are far more versatile, so you can be issued to so many diferent dutties, but unable to perform admirably at any of them.

Vern Kron wrote:

Manuelman wrote: A real person in life must make choices. Choices that forge their lives. If you want to be a virtuoso with guitar, you gotta train all your youth, 6 hours a day, and watch your hands. If you are a smith, you won't be able to play guitar never (because your hands have adapted to heavy work, not fine arrangements) and a fighter could easilly torn you to pieces, since you're not used to tactics, dodgin... If you are a scholar who has devoted his life to magic, you won't be able to cut down the most tiny tree, at least by mortal means. If you want to be a kiking-ass warrior, then forget about... something, because time is finite and you cannot learn everything in your life.

I think thats wrong. Sorry. I can do many things in a very effective manner. I can play the trumpet, I have the ability (should I so choose) to play other instruments, I can do heavy labor, I play sports -and- I am a student in school. So, explain to me, how if you learn something, and then lose interest and shift interest to something else, why you should be penalized for it? If you want to play your character as a specialised character, so be it. You are forgetting that as your character crafts, its not as though time suddenly -stops-. Its their time as well as the PO's going into the game, and the only reason they are able to do the things that many cannot, is they spend time doing it. I enjoy playing my character as a general crafter. The only thing I am against is the warrior crafter, which basically means a warrior who can make their own things.

I think the problem here, is that while, yes, someone can take interest and develop abilities in multiple skills, no one can be an expert -everything-. Sure you can play trumpet, and do heavy labor, and are in school. But can you be a world famous trumpet player, be able to lift extremely heavy objects, and be known for being one of the greatest minds in history?

I think that's what 100 in a skill means. Truly being as best as humanly possible.

But then again... in illa getting 100 in a skill doesn't mean anything unless it's backed up with the correct attributes. For example, a smith with 100 smithing skill with 5 dex, he can't do much at all... let alone be the best... But for sure getting a 100 in a skill means... that's the best you can ever do, if you still can't do much... then... bad luck (or bad stats x3)

Thus the attributes on it's own already making the separation between the best and the second rate. Although if someone chose crafting and do multiple jobs in crafting... that's a different case in illa. But then again... most people complaint about fighter/crafter instead of a super crafter char, who can perfectly make the best item of each crafting profession can offer on his own. Most of the crafters... barely reach a decent level to actually sell his stuff. Ever thought that fighter/crafter were born because there aren't any good crafters around? Although mostly they just sort of hide or not that active

PS: not really directed to anyone in particular, don't be too sensitive x3

That's the point. No one can ever be "the best he could ever be" in every skill. I won't ever know how good i can ever be in, say, speech or persuading, 'cause i only talk to so much people and post a few coments here and there. I won't ever know if I can be as good as, say, Obama

Of course atributes play a part in this thing. Obviously, they're there for a reason, but imagine a really dumb guy (like my smith character ) Trying to learnhow good he can ever be in scholar research. surely he won't have time for that first and, second, he could even not be interested at all in it, '"cuz, ya know, Those bloody books ain't no good fo' me" He might not even touch a book in his whole life. Same for a pure mage, who he even consider taking a hammer and maximizing his carving if his dexterity is like, 6 or 7 and he already knows he will suck at that? or even if he tries, because carving ii a good hobby. He would need to make a choice. Continue his Magic studies or master his carving skills. he won't have time for both. And that's the key. Time. In rl you have a finite amount of time and a finite amount of "rl skill points" that you can aquire. Ig, your charcter time is virtually inifinite, because, thank god, you acquire skill points much, much faster than in rl. But a system reflecting that rl limitations... would be simply great for the sake of rp.

If your char trying to do what he is not meant to be, then... it's your own (as in the PO) fault? As far as i know... a hobby is something you do for fun at leisure time. So if a pure mage want to do carving as a hobby... why not? Even if he sucks at it, but he enjoys it as an escape from magic studies. Doing the same stuff over and over again can be tiresome, thus the mage need something other than magic studies once in a while. If you are a scholar, don't you go to bar play pool or cards or some other activities? sport? Or do you actually just read book all day long, eat, sleep then back to books again?

RL is a model, if you want a game that's pretty much a RL... it's easier to just "play" RL xD A game is fun because you can do things that you can't possibly do in RL And as for limitation, you can make your own limitation for your own chars. No one would ever force you to be jack of all trades

Regarding time, eventhough it seems infinite and you can skill things rather fast, there still not many crafters who actually reach 100 in a skill (if there is any at all). Thus if you stray from your chosen job, then it will take forever for you to be the best in that job.

If your char trying to do what he is not meant to be, then... it's your own (as in the PO) fault? Rolling Eyes As far as i know... a hobby is something you do for fun at leisure time. So if a pure mage want to do carving as a hobby... why not? Even if he sucks at it, but he enjoys it as an escape from magic studies. Doing the same stuff over and over again can be tiresome, thus the mage need something other than magic studies once in a while. If you are a scholar, don't you go to bar play pool or cards or some other activities? sport? Or do you actually just read book all day long, eat, sleep then back to books again? Smile

Yes, but that's the point, a carving hobby won't ever be as good as a professional carpenter. But, anyway, maybe I'm getting too picky about the issue...

Well... Just have to add something in this discussion that might be of use... Why don't we just let every char choose whether they will use their dexterity for fighting or crafting for example and give a -5 bonus in the thing they don't choose? At least a start I think.

I don't know what you guys and gals put on dexterity when you play a warrior, but I would not be that surprised if some of the hobby smiths around who actually are warriors as proffession probably have quite good dexterity which makes it interesting to do this.

If you have let say 10 in dexterity instead of 15 I am pretty sure that hobby smith won't be as eager to do his hobby and boost that skill This would solve the main problem of warriors making their own stuff. A good craftsman will in almost all cases be a better craftsman.

Just a suggestion...

#me tosses in an unrelated thought:

What if you assign one lead attribute to each "profession" (=skill), like this:

Swordfighter: STR
Archer: PER
Carpenter: DEX
Mage: INT
Druid: ESS
Priest: WIL
etc.

Now the skillgain is scaled in the most primitive way possible:
When you wanna be a good fighter, have high STR to increase skillgain. When you wanna be a good crafter, max DEX. If you want to do both, put points into both. If you wanna start crafting as fighter - do so, but exspect it to take longer.

Again, I think pharse's approach, to modify skillgain, depending on specialization, is best. And by using the attributes, you can even make this without any classes or such stuff.

@Estralis:
Sounds good!