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Make cooking based upon the mean, or average as some peopel woudl call it, of intelligence and perception. Dexterity really shouldn't play into how well somebody cooks as MOST cooking is a slow process where quick nimble movements aren't needed, instead such things as patience, smell, sight and personal experinces do matter.


Baking for instance. you dont have to be the most coordinated person in the world to place shaped dough on to the peel. and if you, for instance, misplace a pie strip, you just pick it back up and move it.

Maybe even have willpower come in to play to simulate the patience needed to wait for that loaf of bread to cook properly before removing it from the oven, or letting that Vat of beer ferment long enough before greedily scooping it up for consumption

I just want to bring up the idea that this would probably be the start of specializing crafts depending on the skills picked for a character on creation. The character that would be optimum for cooking may not be the optimum for wood working (just throwing that out as a quick example) which would also mean a character couldn't be uber in all crafts. There have been proposals for specialization in the past. As far as my characters are concerned, it makes no difference.

well personally i think its retarded to assume that just because a char has good DEX that they sudden become God's gift to crafting. I am definatly in favor of specific crafts havign differing stats they base from.

Lets look at Smithing. Old world blacksmiths.. were they built like woodworkers? no, they were ( normally) huge bulking men with massive hammers who couldn't run the 100 meter hurdle race if their life depended on it. I think SMithing shoudl be based upon Strength and perhaps to some degree constitution (the ability to keep at the project for a long time in extreme heat)

Glassblowing.. i would think would be a combination of INtelligence and dexterity.

Goldsmithing, yes, here dex is good.

Carpentry. well here i would say dexterity and to a lesser extend, strength or constiution (try sawing a few dozen boards before you try arguing that one)

Cooking i already talked about above

Tailoring. Dexterity here is proper, but so would maybe adding a 'minor' influence of willpower. sewing takes alot of patience.

hmm.... would take a lot of code ... and will not make alot happy as they seem to have characters built around dexterity to do their jobs.

Cooking - I have to agree dexterity doesnt play much more in cooking unless your doing one of those five star restaurant meals which are all show

Glassblowing- dexterity intelligence and maybe constitution as well cause you need to keep a good breath going to do it properly .

Smithing - - strength - perception - and willpower and constitution
you need strength need to have perceptive vision to know if your work is failing patience and the physical ability to go on with your work.

Gold smithing - dexterity a must and perception to.

Carpentry - Dexterity perception and constitution . in reality you wouldn't be building a great project by yourself but yes strength could be a factor as well.

Tailoring i agree with olive dexterity and willpower

I'd rather have one archetype of character designated as "Crafter".
This class, or however you want to call it, should be roughly based on 3 main attributes, on which all item-crafting things are tied, even when its a bit arkward for specific single step of a single profession.

For example:
Dexterity as main attribute
Perception and Intelligence as secondary support attributes.


Why?
Because its convenient for the player to know what he is doing in character creation.
Likewise he will not be stuck in the middle of character development with either a defunct character that does not support this single specific craft that he wants to have, nor does he need to recreate the whole character when he finds out that carpentry is boring and rather wants to try his luck with glassblowing after a long time of gameplay.

Character specialisation can be much better achived with limiting overall skillpoints in the craftsman skills.

As far as I know there is an archetype cook in the character creation at the moment, so it would be easy to split cooking from other crafts where dexterity is the most important attribute.

But honestly, what would that achive, beside the abilitiy to create a character dedicated to cooking. Who is in a worst case scenario stuck being a cook.

Isn't it better, from a gameplay point of view, to start from a common ground and specialize on the way of character development?

If you suddenly just said "INTELL NOW AFFECTS COOKING, NOT DEX" then the cooks in the 90s that have no intell and high dex would lose their ability to gain income. I hate this idea.

nono julius not at all wed have to set it up so that they could still do what they do besides if they have the skill already then they shouls still be able to make it.

Keikan Hiru wrote:But honestly, what would that achive, beside the abilitiy to create a character dedicated to cooking. Who is in a worst case scenario stuck being a cook.

Isn't it better, from a gameplay point of view, to start from a common ground and specialize on the way of character development?

Why should you be stuck being a cook? What all the archetype at character creations do is to suggest the appropriate attributes and to set some beginner skills. You could still alter/adjust the attributes but choosing the cook archetype will show you that a cook should have a high value in perception for example. You are still able to learn other skills with the attributes of a cook but the attributes will favor skills where having high perception is an advantage.
And I bet most people create a character with a certain career in mind.

Youchimitchu wrote:nono julius not at all wed have to set it up so that they could still do what they do besides if they have the skill already then they shouls still be able to make it.

If intell became the thing that affects cooking and a cook had 5 intell for example, it would be almost impossible to successfully cook a meal.

Sorry Julius to inform you as well, but Illarion is not a finished game. It is subject to changes, even changes where characters loose abilities they may once had. If it makes more sense to base cooking/baking on intelligence or perception (which it does in my point of view) then these changes should be made. Btw. someone with intelligence 5 is barely smart enough to roast some meat over a fire in my eyes.

hmmm well in my opinion you can be dumb as a bucket of rocks but if you cooked long enough your experince should allow you to cook so i say as much as it should be based on the atributes i think the skill of your craft should as well ie 90 in cooking 5 intel you should have no problme cooking a meal as its second knowledge to you but say 25 cooking and 12 intel would still have a harder time cooking then the dumber person due to lack of experience

you could be the dumbest person in the world and still make a grewat house if you did it all your life so far or had the skills to.

im saying that it should be made so peopel still have the ability to make these thingfs even if ther atributes arnt correct but the skill is there.

Hmmm, to be honest I support this idea.

Hmm, in addition I would suggest that attributes become less important as your skill increases. This would stop the vets from getting angry, and also has an amount of logic to it.

Magdha Tiefenerz wrote:Sorry Julius to inform you as well, but Illarion is not a finished game. It is subject to changes, even changes where characters loose abilities they may once had. If it makes more sense to base cooking/baking on intelligence or perception (which it does in my point of view) then these changes should be made. Btw. someone with intelligence 5 is barely smart enough to roast some meat over a fire in my eyes.

5 is a bit under avarage. It's like saying "Hauptschüler" can't cook.

The only attribute that should influence the cooking skill greatly is dexterity. Neither perception, nor intelligence should have anything to do with it.

When I take my glasses off I don't cook worse because of that.

I usually don't even need to weight the ingredients for meals I've cooked often enough. The only thing that counts here is my talent for cooking (~dextirity) and my experience (~skill].

Hadrian_Abela wrote:Hmm, in addition I would suggest that attributes become less important as your skill increases. This would stop the vets from getting angry, and also has an amount of logic to it.

This is actually good idea.

Mr. Cromwell wrote:

Hadrian_Abela wrote:Hmm, in addition I would suggest that attributes become less important as your skill increases. This would stop the vets from getting angry, and also has an amount of logic to it.

This is actually good idea.

I think it's a bad idea because if the stats don't really count anymore once you've mastered a skills, any mage with maxed skills would be as good in fighting as a charakter who was actually made for fighting. The stats are the only thing that weaken those "Fighting-Smithing-Mining-Woodcutting-Gemcutting-Goldsmith-Whatever" charakters.

nono we would make combat stats differnt then crafting stats . if that could work.

Taeryon Silverlight wrote:

Mr. Cromwell wrote:

Hadrian_Abela wrote:Hmm, in addition I would suggest that attributes become less important as your skill increases. This would stop the vets from getting angry, and also has an amount of logic to it.

This is actually good idea.

I think it's a bad idea because if the stats don't really count anymore once you've mastered a skills, any mage with maxed skills would be as good in fighting as a charakter who was actually made for fighting. The stats are the only thing that weaken those "Fighting-Smithing-Mining-Woodcutting-Gemcutting-Goldsmith-Whatever" charakters.

To be honest, when I thought of that, I was thinking of crafters only. Lets face it, if you're not as dexterious, but have been playing with jewelry for years, its not going to effect you much any more.

And a fighter-smith-miner-woodcutter-gemcutter-ect wouldn't have enough skill to make up for the missing attributes.

Taeryon Silverlight wrote: 5 is a bit under avarage. It's like saying "Hauptschüler" can't cook.

10 is average. 9 or 8 maybe even 7 is a bit under under average but 5...

Taeryon Silverlight wrote: The only attribute that should influence the cooking skill greatly is dexterity. Neither perception, nor intelligence should have anything to do with it.

Dexterity is hand-eye-coordination (throwing, missle weapons, etc.) and how dexterious one is with his hands (crafts such as carving, sewing, smithing, etc.). Could you please explain where being dexterious with ones hands comes into play while cooking? Of course, if you fumble with the salt pot the soup won't taste that well, but I don't think that this is enough to justify dexterity as base attribute. It is not important how you hold the cooking spoon in your hand and stir the soup but it is important what you do into the soup.

Taeryon Silverlight wrote: When I take my glasses off I don't cook worse because of that.

Oh, I bet you will cook a lot worse because you won't be able to read the recipe in the cooking book. But seriously, perception covers all senses, not just sight. And taste being one of the senses...

The other approach would be knowing what fits well with what, knowing the recipes, being able to remember recipes or being able to read them. Hence intelligence would be the other attribute in question.

Magdha Tiefenerz wrote:

Taeryon Silverlight wrote: 5 is a bit under avarage. It's like saying "Hauptschüler" can't cook.

10 is average. 9 or 8 maybe even 7 is a bit under under average but 5...

Taeryon Silverlight wrote: The only attribute that should influence the cooking skill greatly is dexterity. Neither perception, nor intelligence should have anything to do with it.

Dexterity is hand-eye-coordination (throwing, missle weapons, etc.) and how dexterious one is with his hands (crafts such as carving, sewing, smithing, etc.). Could you please explain where being dexterious with ones hands comes into play while cooking? Of course, if you fumble with the salt pot the soup won't taste that well, but I don't think that this is enough to justify dexterity as base attribute. It is not important how you hold the cooking spoon in your hand and stir the soup but it is important what you do into the soup.

Taeryon Silverlight wrote: When I take my glasses off I don't cook worse because of that.

Oh, I bet you will cook a lot worse because you won't be able to read the recipe in the cooking book. But seriously, perception covers all senses, not just sight. And taste being one of the senses...

The other approach would be knowing what fits well with what, knowing the recipes, being able to remember recipes or being able to read them. Hence intelligence would be the other attribute in question.

The definitions of avarage given in the "Attributes and their effects"-Thread are a bit very high. If I'd go after that, any mage that has enough stats to create a portal at 100% skill with good equipment would physically be as good as unable to live without the help of modern medical machines.

Also, you need a good hand-eye-coordination to not cut yourself when cutting vegetables for a meal, to stir the soup without shoving it out of the pot with the spoon, to place the food on the plate without spilling half of the meal next to the plate, the ingredients have to be washed and cut the right way and so on. I know a lot of people that try cooking something really easy with a recipe and totally fail while I know others that try themselves on a neat cream-pie with really complicated stuff in the recipe for the frist time and do it perfectly.
To point that out more clearly: Explain my grandpa how to make an instant-soup and he'll manage to smile it up.

Tell my grandma how to make éclair and she'll be able to do them perfectly without any problems or having to ask again at her first try.

That's not because my grandpa is stupid or anything, it's just because he's as dexterious as a physically disatvantaged frog when it comes to cooking.

Also, if you want to go the "logic" way:

-I don't need a recipe for something I'm cooking 20 times a day -> no good sight needed and no intelligence for being able to read. I might have to ask for how to produce the meal a bit more often than others, but sooner or later, I'll be able to do it without any help.

-I don't need to test the meal when I'm as experienced in cooking it -> no good taste sense needed

Skill dependence makes sense. It is fully integrated in the crafting system and I don't see a reason why to change that.

Dexterity is the lead attribute for all crafting types. That is intuitive and should not be changed. Of course there is the possibility to add a secondary attribute. But then it has to be done for all crafts.

But actually, I am against such a step. It just overcomplicates things. Currently it's clear: crafters have to have high dex.
Sounds good to me so I would leave it as it is.

i dont understand you people

you whine about peopel being perfect everythings, then the same people whine about how its sacreligious to make some craftign skills not dependant on dexterity.

so please explain which one you REALLY support, because they are mutually exclusive

either you WANT everythgin dex based, thus allowing chars to be perfect everything

OR you want to spread it around and prevent perfect everythings

there is no third option here