Illarion.org

((Borrowed from the Player's Forum for specific discussion))

There have been a few people who's characters were banned "Immediately" after RP'ing a death. Some were planned by the PO, but most were not. Sometimes they happen because of an ambush IG so deadly, that it would be Poor RP to assume the character lived. I disagree with Banning the character as a sudden form of punishment for "Good" roleplay. Not many players have the "Cajones" to kill off a character they spent a lot of time with, most are cowards and will RP a "Being Ill" in bed for weeks rather than the "Death" that was intended by other PO's.

Here's why we shouldn't immediately Ban them:

When a person RP dies, their belongings do not just "Disappear"! What happens to the treasury of a Guild or town in this case? Characters have 'died' before, leaving towns and guilds bankrupt. It's not fair to all the PO's who 'trusted' that character, and it affects the way they trust the PO in OOC too. I believe other characters should have a "Chance" to get their things from the 'character' who just died, by raiding their house, depot, etc. The stuff is still there, somewhere!

PO's may also want to hold a Funeral service, or RP a haunting, or just talk to the PO to settle issues. There needs to be some time for closure, maybe 3 RL days, not instantly.

Proposal:
Instead of "Banning" a character, could we just change it into a "Ghost" or "Zombie" avatar with all attributes of 1, no skills, etc. that could access a depot for that character? This would allow time for the PO to tie up loose ends with other PO's who needed or depended on them.

Put a time limit on it like 3 RL days or something before banning. This will also allow the PO time to inform the GM's of intentions or file a complaint.

Be player friendly here. Not every rumor of RP death is real or planned ahead of time. Sometimes what is in RP, is intended as rumor or misinformation. How many times has "Retlak" died and yet still walks the Earth 'sometimes'. Or even Dij's 'undead' character. We think it's funny or a quest, but average players often make rash decisions they regret. Let's allow time for other PO's to conclude RP with the 'dead' character with a funeral, dividing loot, maybe even RP a haunting for an untimely death? I think there'll be less complaining about 'unfair' bans due to RP and PO's will be able to trust other PO's more.

This will help prevent GM misunderstandings and possible abuse by setting a procedure that all will follow and understand. We could use more "Procedures" like this for other issues. It's fair, right and player-friendly, which is what we need to do if we hope to keep the players we have, and recruit more.

Discuss?

Dead is dead.

If someone dies he does not become a zombie or what ever. That requires a strong magical influence. And the items of the dead person disappear because the magical depots show the content depending on what person opens it. So if a person is dead, there is no way accessing the depot.

The rare cases of disappearing treasuries of guilds and town can be handled in the different special cases with GM help.

I fail to see any need to change to current way. The only archived effect is that the GMs have 5 times more work with each dead character.

Nitram

Nitram wrote:Dead is dead.

If someone dies he does not become a zombie or what ever. That requires a strong magical influence. And the items of the dead person disappear because the magical depots show the content depending on what person opens it. So if a person is dead, there is no way accessing the depot.

The rare cases of disappearing treasuries of guilds and town can be handled in the different special cases with GM help.

I fail to see any need to change to current way. The only archived effect is that the GMs have 5 times more work with each dead character.

Nitram

Nitram, usually I respect what you have to say, but I think you're wrong here. I'm not asking this for the 'Game' or a new way to "Get things" but for the PO's behind the screens who are affected by these 'deaths'. Psychologically, PO's all need closure to characters they have RP'd with for months, or even years. It's just a friendly way to say....OK, your character died, so everyone needs to finish up with that character before they get deleted.

A recent example was PO "Olive Feldarp" who RP'd the character leaping off of the Goldburg Castle, and then the body was carried off. Was she Dead? No. The RP continued, and she was actually alive, but close to death. A few players RP'd a rescue and she should have lived, but the character was banned anyway....unfairly.

I also know that the excuse given was, that she was RP'ing a 'half-orc', which is against the 'rules' now, but the Ban happened before any of those rules were posted about playing 'Half-breeds'. Other "Half-Breed" characters were not instantly banned, So really the excuse was a lie, and it was related to the RP-Death.

I don't know why certain GM's always assume players are stupid and can't find out the truth. It's really annoying and unprofessional. Let's change this with 'friendly' ways to conclude RP with old friends. Players are like 'customers' of your game, why not treat them like it? That's wise and 'professional'.

Her death affected the RP of players in TB and Goldburg who didn't understand why she was 'banned' or if she was alive or not. It was rather frustrating for me and others. Banned, not banned, banned......it seems so....biased and arbitrary.

If it wasn't for me and a few others encouraging the PO through MSN to "keep with it, try another character, file a complaint, talk to the GM's, etc".....we would have lost yet another player because of this single Ban. Is that what you want???

I am saying, decide on a procedure, and not just an instant 'ban' if you "Think" the RP was death. That's just not fair to players who became friends through those characters.

PS-if you think it's more work to do this, make it automatic like Clouding. I'm sure it can be done.

Not to put your ideas down Juniper, but you can write to a gm easily and ask for a temporary unbanishment of the character if you still have belongings to transmit to others.

The only thing that should be done is write about those kind of things somewhere anyone can and will see them immidiately (honestly, what if I went on that nifty wiki site and deleted the Faq article right now?).

Also the ban is not to be seen as a punishment for the roleplaying player, it's simply a meassurement to restrict a "Damn, i don't want to be dead actually, let's just log back in and see if nobody noticed" mentality that was present in the past.

Don't propose a system for things that can be solved handpicked for now.
I believe an enormous amount of 2-3 characters perma-died in a period of the 6 last months.

Faladron, I appreciate the thoughts, but the greater issue here is "Player-Friendliness" and consideration of the players. It is well known that roleplayers (right brain) are often more emotional and 'attached' to characters than 'logic-side' (left brain) thinkers.

My career in RL is working with psychological issues and treating mentally retarded individuals and the elderly. I just am thinking about the way "Banning" in general not only affects the one banned, but the entire network of players who have some connection to them too.

As Roleplayers, we come together and "live" a fantasy life with total strangers. Over time, we develop friendships and even start chatting with them via MSN or PM's. When a character perma-dies suddenly, psychologically, it's similar to losing a 'best friend' or family member. The same issues of regret, grief and longing to settle issues come into play, just as if in real life. We often give friends and family 'time' and support to grieve, so why should RP'd friends be any different?

I am just advising to lessen the "trauma" to other players by having a "Transition" period (maybe 3 days) in which other players can find out about the death (or Ban), communicate to the PO, settle issues, RP a funeral or other way to say farewell and continue on.

I was personally affected by several 'bannings' the last few months. "Olive Feldarp" was the most recent, but I was able to resolve things with MSN. Other characters however, like "Konrad Knox" and "Surien Silverbeard" I did not have MSN for, nor could send a PM to them. I regret not being able to talk to them.

For 'Quality' roleplay, players become involved and immersed in their characters. They become a part of their characters. Suddenly cutting them or a close friend off with a Ban, without closure or explanation, will just encourage mistrust of the GM's, and anger against those who did it.

Does anyone understand my reasoning, or do you all just don't give a crap?

I think the idea is flawed. There is no reason for someone to come back as a zombie/mummy to transfer items when the gms basically already said "That's possible with a pm." As Faladron noted, I think everyone here is sick of people saying "MY CHAR IS DEAD!" and two days later getting ig and saying "I've been resurrected by Cherga, can I buy some stones Chester?" If you want to rp a ritual to revive a character after a long while, I think the gms would even allow this with a character graphic for a while and some stat changes (Dain and cultists do it all the time.) As for Olive's situation.. can someone tell me how you jump off a castle and live in a medieval environment? No offense to the PO, but I think that type of extreme "My char is immortal.. she didn't know that wasn't water" attitude shouldn't be ig.

As for the situation of banning chars, I don't like it much. It seems to me that the PO wasn't notified before she had her char banned. How did the gms know she was dead? How did she know that she hadn't "faked" her death ig? I've faked Julius's death ig (for 1 day ) and I'd appreciate it if I did it again that I wasn't banned because my character had "died."

Copying my post from another thread:

This sounds good to me for an RP death, it will allow the player and others to prepare. I agree is player-friendly.

As a player who "misses" characters even if the player can make more but not exactly the same, I agree if at all possible would be nice to have a couple of days closure. Asking a GM to allow the character to get things from the depot etc. would probably satisfy the ooc part but not the ig RP part. Is there any solution that wouldn't require a lot of work for GM's yet would satisfy the closure for those that voluntarily RP perma (I understand and would agree there shouldn't be any length for closure in a rule banning however)?

Mairae Auvria wrote:Copying my post from another thread:

This sounds good to me for an RP death, it will allow the player and others to prepare. I agree is player-friendly.

As a player who "misses" characters even if the player can make more but not exactly the same, I agree if at all possible would be nice to have a couple of days closure. Asking a GM to allow the character to get things from the depot etc. would probably satisfy the ooc part but not the ig RP part. Is there any solution that wouldn't require a lot of work for GM's yet would satisfy the closure for those that voluntarily RP perma (I understand and would agree there shouldn't be any length for closure in a rule banning however)?

Define what you mean by closure.
I realy don't see the problem you adress as being existent.

If you need time for "closure" all you have to do is send a Pm to a GM: "I want to see the funeral of my own character, can you unban me for that so I can see it?"

"Can you unban my character, I still have things I have to distribute to other characters as they are his heirs."

"I don't have msn/other means of conversation and still want some things about the roleplay talked out oocly with some characters. Can you unban me for that?"

The only thing flawed about that currently is that hardly anyone knows these possibilities exist, it's not a problem that the "service" of offering individual closure for roleplay/item issues after the character has been routinely banished does not exist.(color added by author himself)

The problem is that not everyone knows that this is possible already.

The roleplay of that particular character as being actively played ends when he's dead.

@Chester, I do not understand your reasoning. You CAN ask for time for closure like that, be it itemwise or roleplay wise as I already stated above. The problem is it's not being advertised that this possibility is available for you when your character dies. That's what has to be changed somehow (FAQ guide on the homepage!)

Faladron wrote: Define what you mean by closure.
I realy don't see the problem you adress as being existent.

That's because you didn't lose three RP/real friends within a month's time without knowing why. Not only chester, but other characters I've had were drastically affected by 'sudden' rule changes or players involuntarily disappearing and I think it's stupid when it can be settled with clear procedures that put the 'player' as the center of concern and not some 'bias' by GM's to eliminate people they don't like. The staff wonder why players are decreasing, well what reason have they to stay? One wrong word to a GM character or unknowingly using OOC 'too much' (whatever that means) could get you banned. I and many others don't trust GM's for this reason. They are not consistent, nor are they all fair, because there is no 'procedure' or leadership in their activities. Rules are bent all the time, and people are naturally biased. Banning is too often used first, immediately and for no 'just' reason, this 'Perma-death' through what they "read" (true or not) as being the worst example. In fact, we recently learned that the email for "GM-abuse" has been forwarded to a GM and was never checked for 6 months! Yeah, this system works great.

Faladron wrote: If you need time for "closure" all you have to do is send a Pm to a GM: "I want to see the funeral of my own character, can you unban me for that so I can see it?"

Yes, but according to Nitram, it's too much 'work' to change into a ghost or something. Having the character stand there as if they didn't die at their own funeral is poor RP and stupid too.

Faladron wrote: "Can you unban my character, I still have things I have to distribute to other characters as they are his heirs."

That was not the point of this proposal, just something to consider if they are holding onto other people's money or items like a guild or town. Maybe even RP by thieves like the scene in Dicken's "Christmas Carol" when Scrooge sees his house after his 'death' and thieves are dividing up his treasures. Family in RL do this all the time too after a death.

Faladron wrote: "I don't have msn/other means of conversation and still want some things about the roleplay talked out oocly with some characters. Can you unban me for that?"

Yes, that would be nice to do. But what happens when I want to talk to a 'banned' character? Denied. Ok, then the player quits and I never see him again, a pity. There are many PO's who have quit that I respected and would have loved to talk to, given the chance.

Faladron wrote: The only thing flawed about that currently is that hardly anyone knows these possibilities exist, it's not a problem that the "service" of offering individual closure for roleplay/item issues after the character has been routinely banished does not exist.(color added by author himself)

The problem is that not everyone knows that this is possible already.

"Ignorance of the law is no excuse" in other words. Crap I say. We are better than that. We talk about helping new players.....We talk about improving the game.....we talk about improving RP.....we talk....we talk....we talk.....

Let's DO! Information, 'Customer Service', transparency of operations, system of procedures for all staff to follow, listed 'plan' of consequences will go a long way to doing all these things we 'talk' about.

Faladron wrote: The roleplay of that particular character as being actively played ends when he's dead.

Hmm...when a family member dies, do you grieve? Do you attend the funeral? Do you talk about him to family and friends seeking comfort and support? Do you 'hope' he/she has gone to heaven or been reincarnated, or even try to pray or communicate with them somehow through psychics?
I am saying that life carries on a little while after the death for the people involved, and depending upon your beliefs, life continues for that dead person too. I just think our RP and respect for the friendships we develop IG should be respected and imitated as in RL. Psychologically they have the same effects, just on different scales.

Faladron wrote: @Chester, I do not understand your reasoning. You CAN ask for time for closure like that, be it itemwise or roleplay wise as I already stated above. The problem is it's not being advertised that this possibility is available for you when your character dies. That's what has to be changed somehow (FAQ guide on the homepage!)

My player name is "Frank" or even "Juniper" is fine. Chester, Dusty, Kurga, etc. are all character names. It's this kind of mixing of OOC and IG knowledge which only validates my argument. When you use my character name, you as a player, instantly think of me in terms of my characters. People still tell me they miss a former character, as if seeking some closure for it. Lucky I haven't been banned yet, or they'd never be able to say anything to me. I always spend time to listen to them and discuss what happened. But that's just me - I care.

I could 'ask' for time like that, but is that really 'less' work for a GM than for the game to just implement an automated procedure like clouding? I don't think so. There's trust and security in taking "Banning" away as a first 'action' of someone's RP.

Maybe I just expect too much for a game like this.

If I am...let me know and I won't waste our time anymore.

[quote="Faladron"Also the ban is not to be seen as a punishment for the roleplaying player, it's simply a meassurement to restrict a "Damn, i don't want to be dead actually, let's just log back in and see if nobody noticed" mentality that was present in the past.[/quote]

Haha, good times.

I still remember the multiple 'resurrections' of characters.

Ah, good times.

Banning dead characters is all right.

But ONLY in agreement with the PO (means a GM should speak with the PO first)

Just my opinion.

JonathanSmith wrote:Banning dead characters is all right.

But ONLY in agreement with the PO (means a GM should speak with the PO first)

Just my opinion.

I would agree to this, Or if there was an ooc remark in a thread telling the GM this char is deleted. To keep players from "killing" RP wise their chars and "coming back" seems to me not much of a problem, after awhile if too many do it people will no longer pay attention.

Juniper Onyx wrote: Hmm...when a family member dies, do you grieve? Do you attend the funeral? Do you talk about him to family and friends seeking comfort and support? Do you 'hope' he/she has gone to heaven or been reincarnated, or even try to pray or communicate with them somehow through psychics?
I am saying that life carries on a little while after the death for the people involved, and depending upon your beliefs, life continues for that dead person too. I just think our RP and respect for the friendships we develop IG should be respected and imitated as in RL. Psychologically they have the same effects, just on different scales.

I'll refrain from arguing with you, obviously the english language is unable to transport my opinions the way I want them to be understood.

I said "When a character dies his RP ends." I meant as being played by the player actively, able to influence the game or interact with other people in any way, thus your whole paragraph about that, nicely written, didn't realy adress what I meant.

My player name is "Frank" or even "Juniper" is fine. Chester, Dusty, Kurga, etc. are all character names. It's this kind of mixing of OOC and IG knowledge which only validates my argument. When you use my character name, you as a player, instantly think of me in terms of my characters. People still tell me they miss a former character, as if seeking some closure for it. Lucky I haven't been banned yet, or they'd never be able to say anything to me. I always spend time to listen to them and discuss what happened. But that's just me - I care.

I don't have OOC knowledge about what your name is, I don't have any interrest in knowing realy, so you can't realy hold that against me as "mixing ooc and ic knowledge". I'm not interrested in knowing you as a person, all I know about you are the characters you played and I have played with so of course I'll sort you in my mind according to what I know about you and maybe label you under the name of one of your characters, heaven forbid if that's ooc ic mixing for you, deal with it Chester. So your validation for whatever it is you wanted to proove fizzled realy, because the english language (in the way I use it) appears to have some sort of malfunction that makes other people never understand things the way I intend them to understand.
(Or people only want to understand what suits their own argument,
I find that possibility more likely realy)

I could 'ask' for time like that, but is that really 'less' work for a GM than for the game to just implement an automated procedure like clouding? I don't think so. There's trust and security in taking "Banning" away as a first 'action' of someone's RP.

As I already said, with 2-3 characters dieing permanently over a period of months, an automated system to take care of this IS more work and infact doing this manually IS less work for a GM than it would be for a Dev to script something 2-3 people every once in a while would benefit from.
See it under the aspect of efficiency: Develop, script, run and tweak a system 0,001% of the playerbase (figuratively) will use doesn't sound
like a bright idea to me (We got snowballs scripted now though, so never mind maybe you WILL find a Dev that will code such a system now)

Once again, I don't understand "banning" a character that died a perma dead as a punishment, you obviously see that differently. If it would be worded differently and it'd say "Deceased" to prohibit a character from being played after his death instead of "Banished" in your account would you complain less about this, even though it'd be the same thing?

Maybe I just expect too much for a game like this.

Probably.

If I am...let me know and I won't waste our time anymore.

Now I know... definately you do.

To put things short again:

You're arguing about: Players being banished for rulebreaks and not given the chance to end their roleplay with closure.
Why should they get a chance to do so?

We're not playing based on Schillers "Die Bürgschaft" (I read about you flaunting you know some german, you should know enough to know what I mean with that.), where the one
sentenced to death gets enough time to settle his affairs before he has to face the sentence.

They broke rules, the general code of conduct they choose to acknowledge with downloading installing registering and playing the game.

If guests you invite over start to tear down your house, you'll try to get them out asap aswell and certainly won't give them enough time to grab their coats on the way out and maybe use the loo and have a glass of water before and pack in some leftovers of dinner for the way, honestly.

I on the other hand am arguing about this, and this alone:

Poor information about what happens if someone not breaking any game rules kills off his character and the character gets banished out of the blue (from the point of view of the player).