Rule update / Regeländerungen

Julius · Post by **Julius** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 7:13 pm

You've had cyber in this game for years, since it was made. And now you suddenly say "Oh crap, we may be deleted over this! We must stop it!" There are thousands of chat rooms, games, and other cyber areas much worse then Illarion who minors have been known to visit (watch tv, there are multiple shows about sex predators) that are still online.

Quite frankly, I could care less if cyber was allowed or not. It's the simple fact that your taking rights away without a very plausible excuse. If this excuse was plausible, there would be no term "cyber" because according to you, even the sites tailored to cybering can't have a safe age check.

Skaalib Drurr · Post by **Skaalib Drurr** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 7:18 pm

It's these wacky German laws about games.

Post by **Nitram** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 7:24 pm

There was cybering over a long time already indeed. But from my point of view its not really hard to understand that we get rid of those risks against the game.

If you request that everyone goes along with the risk that Illarion may disappears from one day to another along with the risk against the management of the society to get real life problems, so a few players can go on cybering you are nothing but egoistic.

I think the majority of the players would prefer to ensure that Illarion exsist then go along with those cyber sex.

Nitram

Dantagon Marescot · Post by **Dantagon Marescot** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 7:31 pm

Nitram,

Could you please go into more detail about what is consitered to be cybering? I personally place a difference between cybering and rped sex. To me cybering is someone with one hand on their keyboard and their other elsewhere. Rped sex is supposed to be discriptive (in a nice way) and well, rp.

Please explain what is and isn't allowed if you are really going to impose this on people. There have to be things that can be rped out in public in front of these minors who technically shouldn't be playing this game if they are not mature enough to view some sexual content. After all, if you go to the right places in America you can see people making out in public among other things. How far is this going to go?

The Returner · Post by **The Returner** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 7:35 pm

Skaalib Drurr wrote:It's these wacky German laws about games.

Laws against game ratings and regarding minors don't change alot between countries or ratings systems. Illarion is a business. To keep this business operating it abides by child's rights laws. Otherwise to moderate this game would be forced to go to subscription with legal proof of age to ensure its status.

@Julius and the rest with the same 'rights' argument ,
Do you honestly want someone of this staff to face legal action over a trivial matter such as this for a right you've never even had to begin with?

Post by **Nitram** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 7:40 pm

I think you will understand that I can't publish logfiles about this.

The declaration is avaiable already I think. The rules on the homepage say "not suitable for minors". So this means that descriptive sexual actions are forbidden. Kissing, snuggle, hugging, etc. are not sexual actions in the meant way.

Nitram

Pellandria · Post by **Pellandria** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 7:46 pm

I'm still wondering something tougth, if this is simply is for the sake of the laws, why is there still blood involved, every commercial game has to go trougththe Usk, means everything violence related has to go, at the same time that means no blood,nowhere, to no time, if you ever played a cut game you will see, there is no blood, so wouldn't that leave the game to kill of blood aswell, atleast untill one finds a good way to "mark" minors?

Julius · Post by **Julius** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 7:48 pm

Pellandria wrote:I'm still wondering something tougth, if this is simply is for the sake of the laws, why is there still blood involved, every commercial game has to go trougththe Usk, means everything violence related has to go, at the same time that means no blood,nowhere, to no time, if you ever played a cut game you will see, there is no blood, so wouldn't that leave the game to kill of blood aswell, atleast untill one finds a good way to "mark" minors?

Wtf? Why do you have to bring up more things that they'll take away.

Post by **Nitram** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 7:50 pm

Its at all time a matter how realistic the problematic content is.
The sexual content that was avaiable in the game was descriped very realistic.
On the ther hand side the blood that is visible in the game is very unrealistic. Ultima Online has a very similar style of showing blood. And this game got a USK of 12+

Nitram

Pellandria · Post by **Pellandria** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 7:52 pm

I simply bring them up, because if this whole reason is simply for the sake of laws, we have to eliminate all content.

Something else I wonder, isn't a normal "check" along the lines of "you declare that you are over 18 or he legal age in your country" enough to keep ones head out of lawsuits, I mean if a minor would lie there..its not the staffs problem or?

Christopher..Rigden · Post by **Christopher..Rigden** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 7:56 pm

Is 'making love' wrong?

Post by **Nitram** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:11 pm

Pellandria wrote:I mean if a minor would lie there..its not the staffs problem or?

Due the german laws it sadly IS the staffs problem.

Nitram

Miriam · Post by **Miriam** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:21 pm

Is Illa really considered to be a game for people over 16 or over 18?
I never saw a rule like that...
I would have never started playing this game, if i read that it was supposed to be 16+/ 18+ . This makes Illa sound like a game i wouldn't want to play.

One shouldn't scare away the new players this way, because Illa isn't full of violence and sex and such things.
But if you write it's for 16+/ 18+ a lot of people will get an wrong image of it and they will think it is full of such things.

Or did you all start playing Illa then you were "old"?

Lennier · Post by **Lennier** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:29 pm

In past the Staff gave the advice, that Illarion should be played in an age of at least 16 years. An advice, no rule. We would not be able to check it in needed kind of way. And the advice was never followed. Propably the half of our players is younger than 18, and still enough players are younger 16 today.

We really want to ban them? Of course not. The age of the player is no real parameter for good roleplay. We really have good ones. And we need to protect our younger players against everything like it is wanted by different laws of child-welfare.

And it is also a question of what image we want to spread out. I also think an USK of 18+ would not be the best promotion for us.

Damien · Post by **Damien** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 9:34 pm

Just imagine one of the following Situations. It is very likely that 1. and 2. of the described situations have happened several times :

1. Player A and B cyber.
2. One player is or both players are minor(s)
3. his/her/their relatives read what they are doing and sue against the game

OR :
1. Player A and B cyber.
2. Player C witnesses (either wanted or unwanted) and is under age.
3. He tells someone, that someone sues against the game

OR :
1. Player A and Player B Cyber.
2. Player C witnesses (however) and thinks : "Whoah that is illegal"
3. Player C sues against the game

In ANY (or likewise) situation, we WILL have the following effect :

1. Game website and/or Server would be closed / confiscated for months or years
2. Society will be sued/punished/forbidden

-> Illa would be done for.

DEFINITELY.

You see it's throughoutly a too high risk for everyone NOT to write and follow that rule part !

If you really WANT to cyber, you can use the whatever instant messenger program or private chat channel of your choice to continue your RP of a certain type there instead of using the game server for that (where even in remote map locations, minors can accidentally walk by).

Retlak · Post by **Retlak** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 9:53 pm

Well those minors are dicks for even cybering in the first place.

Sundo Raca · Post by **Sundo Raca** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 9:53 pm

I understand why you've done this, but i cant believe that anyone would sue the game over that. Its a shame we live in such a hypersensitive world imo.

Damien · Post by **Damien** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 10:16 pm

True, but different cultures have different habits, and different countries have different laws - the Staff has to obey the latter, which are created from or influenced by the first, for the game to survive.

The Returner · Post by **The Returner** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 10:32 pm

Sundo Raca wrote:I understand why you've done this, but i cant believe that anyone would sue the game over that. Its a shame we live in such a hypersensitive world imo.

Lieberman VS Take Two, Clinton VS Rockstar, ESRB VS Bethesda Softworks, Korean government VS Blizzard, many parents have persued also legal action against huge companies over similar circumstances, don't assume they wouldn't also persue legal action against easy targets such as Illarion.

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 10:35 pm

The Returner wrote:
Sundo Raca wrote:I understand why you've done this, but i cant believe that anyone would sue the game over that. Its a shame we live in such a hypersensitive world imo.

Lieberman VS Take Two, Clinton VS Rockstar, ESRB VS Bethesda Softworks, Korean government VS Blizzard, many parents have persued also legal action against huge companies over similar circumstances, don't assume they wouldn't also persue legal action against easy targets such as Illarion.

*calls out to Fal*

Can we sue them?

Basal · Post by **Basal** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 11:00 pm

That powergaming rule means everyone who plays the game is a rulebreaker except those players who only use the game as a chatroom... wait they are rulebreakers too according to other rule which says that you can't use illarion as a chatroom.

The rule about "cooperative roleplay" needs to be defined because I think most people have not willingly cooperated to allow their character to be PKed, which would make them all rulebreakers too.

Finally. the rule about not being allowed to try to win or be the winner makes most players rulebreakers again. Everyone in a capitalist society tries to win, and as I assume most players aren't from a communist society in this game, that means they are used to always trying to win - a behavior they are unlikely to drop just for a game.

The rules have an idealistic vision and I see the idealism in the intent behind them, but they are simply impractical. I can see how these vague rules subject to GM interpretation will be easily abused to punish certain players who have looked at a GM the wrong way while leaving the majority of identical rulebreakers untouched.

Julius · Post by **Julius** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 11:58 pm

I strive to allow my character to win all the time, Basal. However, I allow for there to be situations in between the big things that he sucks at. I think that's the major theory of that rule. No more perfect "I win all the time, no one can stop because I'm a god" chars.

Retlak · Post by **Retlak** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 12:30 am

I will probably never take a powergaming rule seriously.

Evan Ross · Post by **Evan Ross** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 12:30 am

I'll always be to damn lazy to power game anyway... So I guess that rule doesn't really effect me.

Post by **Estralis Seborian** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 12:11 pm

There is no need for trolling here. Stay serious, please. Most rules are not new, so there is no need for a big show. Let us take a look at the rule about Considerateness.

All youth endangering activities are not allowed.

All activities not suitable for minors are not allowed.

Big change? No. But we made clear what we mean with that rule. And yes, it covers pornography.

On powergaming:
Carrying out an action that does not fit your character's role repeatedly and for an extended time just to raise skills is called Powergaming, and is forbidden.

Carrying out an action repeatedly in a way not related to roleplaying with the sole purpose to raise skills is called Powergaming, and is forbidden.

Is it just me or does the latter sound a bit more liberal? When you roleplay, it is OK, basta. Using the engine is not powergaming. Casting spells, bashing monsters, crafting armor, you can do this as long as you want (note that the "extended time" thingy was dropped) as long as you roleplay. We will never ban somebody who stands in front of the anvil for hours and works. But we will ban somebody who stands in front of the anvil and makes comments like "((get lost noob, I need to raise my skills))".

On cooperative playing:
Most unrest was caused by incoperative playing in the past. Selfish playing - not playing a selfish character but leaving no room for interaction - is a venom for a game like Illarion. If you want to pwn everyone and do persona play, your character's success becoming your own success, you violate one of the core concepts of roleplaying.

Anyway, the Illarion staff always has an open ear for suggestions how to improve the game. The rules are the framework the game is supposed to be played within. If you want to change this framework, you need good reasons, though. There are plenty reasons for the minor(!) changes we did, here and there they might be a bit idealistic, but without sharing the picture of how this game is supposed to be played, nothing changes.

Rhandarja Opalin · Post by **Rhandarja Opalin** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 12:56 pm

Although i already think, Sex is an important part of a char's live ... and it's the most sensitive RP I ever encoutered, the legal reasons you brought up made the point.

Nothing to say against this. The only way to avoid this is to move the Servers to Bourkina Faso and managing them through a company housed in Bhutan. Not a really alternative, eh?

Thank you for stating the PG-rule clear. My char yesterday got a flute. She never played a flute before .. but, hell, she's a barde! Practising is the craftmanship of a barde. It took me about an hour to level from worst to bad. One hour of fear for beeing banned through PG-ing

Now, it's clear: It's not PG-ing .. and it's always better to practise in a empty corner of the town then torturing the audience with infernal noise. >>smile<<

Damien · Post by **Damien** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 5:11 pm

Sex may be a thing that belongs to the life of a character, true.
But we can either give our characters some privacy or just move the core elements of said privacy to msn, icq or other chat methods where it cannot happen that minors witness the unelegantly detailed hardcore-description of underarm-thick male you-know-what-i-means impaling a 30cm tall fairy.
And believe me, that's just an itty-bitty(let's call it light-weight) example for the astonishingly compensative fantasies of a few players.

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:40 pm

^ Big Brother is watching.

LifeWonder · Post by **LifeWonder** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:58 pm

Damien wrote:unelegantly detailed hardcore-description of underarm-thick male you-know-what-i-means impaling a 30cm tall fairy.

I'm suing you just for posting that.

The Returner · Post by **The Returner** » Tue Oct 07, 2008 2:38 am

oh my god, i've never even considered that.

Anyway has there been a decision on instrument practicing? is pging? is not?