Illarion.org

Djironnyma wrote:elves dont searching "salvation" they seem their life as a travel for cognition - for knowledge and wisdom witch they must found in the life, witch cant given by the five or anyone else - if they have enough cognition for this life they will gone the "next step" on their travel - left her life as a elf wit her immortal soul, think some time about it to get than reborn as a cat or a fish e.g. to collect more cognition...

elfs also dont pray directly for aid from the five - a elf would never say "oh plz u 5 give me a uber-sword to kill these bad undeeds plz!", a elf would more pray for enough wisdom to bring the life back in balance

you maybe think that is the same, but it isnt - firstly elfs see the responsibility for her life an all thinks witch happen in their life by them self an not by any god/ any power

second, elfs the the five not as personality witch are "friendly" or "fair" - they see them as the elements of everything, witch hold the world in balance - a elf would say a human "god" like Malachin is just a part of the five, like the human himself is a part and the elf himself....

Its hard for me to explain that in english - but maybe you read that laste post there, it will help you a bit to understand

http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... hp?t=23233

I completely understand and understood you the first time. Though, unless the person playing plays an elf..it really doesn't apply.

I found Moshran very forgiving, he even resurrected one of my characters. . Perhaps he had gained much favour to him in his lifetime.

so what it all boils down to is that each persons deity is however they interpret him/her to be.

ROFLMAO, i didn't want to write in here, but that's a really good gag. Moshran -_saving_- characters...
Not that it would be a [irony]"little bit"[/irony] more appropriate for any Moshran related thing to NOT rescue anyone or anything who/what is in a need and cannot get out by own strength, uhm, rescuing - is a complete misinterpretation of the whole thing. Of course such things can happen if a GM is involved, because being moody belongs to playing an evil NPC too. That's an exception, of course : putting "moshran saved my very ass" into your char background is kinda, well, you get it. Some people did it, and not too few, even if using other words. There are exactly three letters for that, the first is an L, the third too, and in the middle comes the O !
Like the temple thing, when they "rescued" their fellow cultists from the prison again and again and again. And that, instead of letting them rot slowly while being happy about the possibility of a free, possibly "higher" position they could claim themselves. Not to mention at all, the little fact that those imprisioned ones were incabable enough to get cought(even repeatedly), and should deserve to be removed to make room for stronger and more witty ones...

To explain the concept in an easy way:
Just imagine you were some really twisted, evil, powerhungry, sadistic 455hole who believes in nothing but that strength and brutality as well as mean trickery are the solution to everything, would you rather rescue someone or watch him get torn to pieces, preferrably slowly ? Hmh ? Hmmmh ? Does the bell ring ? *g*
Keep in mind when playing a villain : one other person out of the way is exactly one person less to share all the power with. AND one possible dagger out of ones own evil back, too !
Remember, Dr.Evil is not Dr.Evil2's friend. The concept of being a villain - especially, an evil cultist - includes happily falling into each another's back when there's even a little gain in it.

Just my opinion as (sometimes-)player, but having all these "friendly" villains of the neighbourhood around who help each other and everyone else and drink with the common townsfolk in the tavern when they're not busy planning their next bloody human sacrifice or how to conquer and enslave the world kinda really ruin the mood in illarion to a somewhat very laughable point.
Reminds me of some complaints about some evil lich actually KILLING a player in combat, who choosed to stay near instead of leaving when he got really hurt... cough cough...
Or that other guy, who complainedlike hell after an NPC demon killed him... "You guys just attacked me for no reason !" "Well... it is a DEMON, right, and there was this big fight..." "But.. you just KILLED me !"...
Or that guy jumping on the NPC-Dragon's back with a force emote, saying : "And now, FLY !"...
etc, etc, etc..

Gives me an idea... The staff should perhaps collect such happenings somewhere. Always good for a laugh or two.

I killed the NPC dragon and got scolded for it by other characters

Faladron wrote:I killed the NPC dragon and got scolded for it by other characters

Bad Faladron!

And for a good reason too.

...all slap Faladron !

*gets huge smelly trout and starts slapping*

Damien wrote:ROFLMAO, i didn't want to write in here, but that's a really good gag. Moshran -_saving_- characters...
Not that it would be a [irony]"little bit"[/irony] more appropriate for any Moshran related thing to NOT rescue anyone or anything who/what is in a need and cannot get out by own strength, uhm, rescuing - is a complete misinterpretation of the whole thing. Of course such things can happen if a GM is involved, because being moody belongs to playing an evil NPC too. That's an exception, of course : putting "moshran saved my very ass" into your char background is kinda, well, you get it. Some people did it, and not too few, even if using other words. There are exactly three letters for that, the first is an L, the third too, and in the middle comes the O !
Like the temple thing, when they "rescued" their fellow cultists from the prison again and again and again. And that, instead of letting them rot slowly while being happy about the possibility of a free, possibly "higher" position they could claim themselves. Not to mention at all, the little fact that those imprisioned ones were incabable enough to get cought(even repeatedly), and should deserve to be removed to make room for stronger and more witty ones...

To explain the concept in an easy way:
Just imagine you were some really twisted, evil, powerhungry, sadistic 455hole who believes in nothing but that strength and brutality as well as mean trickery are the solution to everything, would you rather rescue someone or watch him get torn to pieces, preferrably slowly ? Hmh ? Hmmmh ? Does the bell ring ? *g*
Keep in mind when playing a villain : one other person out of the way is exactly one person less to share all the power with. AND one possible dagger out of ones own evil back, too !
Remember, Dr.Evil is not Dr.Evil2's friend. The concept of being a villain - especially, an evil cultist - includes happily falling into each another's back when there's even a little gain in it.

Just my opinion as (sometimes-)player, but having all these "friendly" villains of the neighbourhood around who help each other and everyone else and drink with the common townsfolk in the tavern when they're not busy planning their next bloody human sacrifice or how to conquer and enslave the world kinda really ruin the mood in illarion to a somewhat very laughable point.

I am not entirely sure how I should react to this post. Hilarity? Disbelief?

Are you on crack?

It seems to me that you are reducing all evil characters into one dimensional, chaotic, bloodthirsty, brainless and disloyal muppets. What you are describing is essentially chaotic evil. Me, me, me.

A lawful evil villain methodically takes what he wants within the limits of his code of conduct without regard for whom it hurts. He cares about tradition, loyalty, and order but not about freedom, dignity, or life. He plays by the rules but without mercy or compassion. He is comfortable in a hierarchy and would like to rule, but is willing to serve. He condemns others not according to their actions but according to race, religion, homeland, or social rank. He is loath to break laws or promises.

This reluctance comes partly from his nature and partly because he depends on order to protect himself from those who oppose him on moral grounds.

Newsflash!
Not all characters do evil things for the sake of doing evil things, they might actually do such acts to achieve certain set goals. As these goals are achieved, they function pretty much like every other member of the society, which includes, yes, drinking and shagging with the rest of the villagers.

As for evil god saving a follower, well: As unthinkable as it may sound for you, a useful servant is a useful servant, no matter how much delight you would derive from having him torn apart. This should apply for gods as well, but meh: When you purpose-design the only evil god to be batshit crazy, and quite unservable (if the players were supposed to follow your line of thought) except for the most stereotypical, polarized, bloodthirsty and shortlived thugs.

Seriously. I'm beginning to see why Illarion's pantheon is so woefully inadequate and reduced to such utter insignificance ingame-wise.

Easy kids.

And yes, the evil characters are evil. But the fact that they then come into town and act normal after attacking about 10 people in town, is what is the problem. And its more common than you think.
So, set goals. But if your character is flat out evil, then they shouldn't go into town and act like regular people because they aren't. They are evil. And when everyone -knows- they are evil, and they act like normal people it disrupts the flow.

I think damien simply means that most evil chars are attacking and slashing in everyone around them, know not one bit honour or fairness, not even friendship, but if they meet with "friends" they suddendly are well mannered, noon who is~evil~ to the point where not even laws apply to them, than they shouldn't even socialize with other people, especially no one, who is also ~evil~, because that would mean that they take away prey and thus must be eliminated, but alas the evil side of illarion is stragly enough exactly as friendly as the good side to each other and there is something wrong with it.

The topic at hand yes Damien is right, dieing or getting catched is a weakness, and moshran hates such, just look at his goddescription and you have it, everyone who would serv him and be stupid enough to die, well let him die and torture him in his realm for the fun of it, seeing how everyone has turned away from him, after he risked his live for everyone well and the corrupted armor and sword didn't help to keep his mood up, so yes he is a bastard who jsut knows torture and has not one bit humanity left, because he fell from the top to rock bottom.

Damien wrote: Like the temple thing, when they "rescued" their fellow cultists from the prison again and again and again. And that, instead of letting them rot slowly while being happy about the possibility of a free, possibly "higher" position they could claim themselves. Not to mention at all, the little fact that those imprisioned ones were incabable enough to get cought(even repeatedly), and should deserve to be removed to make room for stronger and more witty ones...

DUH-HOY-HOY is what your post basically says. Honestly, that makes no sense at all. I for one did play in the temple and did help people out of jail in the temple. Maybe if you would think about why for a moment you would understand.
Here is the scenario:
There are 10 people in the temple.
There are 100 people that want to destroy the temple.

My character would not think, "LIKE OMG I AM IN POWER BECAUSE THE PERSON OF HIGHER RANK IS GONE!" More like... "Hmm, I am going to be gone/dead/no-longer-able to get power if I am in this alone. This person in jail can still help me in my search for power." The smart bad-guy would use all available realistic resources to get power. If freeing some one from jail is easy as cake at the time, I find it realistic and necessary Personally, I think the black-cultist description is a bit...you know? LOL. Unless a cult-like group actually has power, what is the point in knocking-off the top guys who can help the group to get power? Lastly, stop and think that some characters have more depth than just KILL KILL KILL? Second thoughts at times?

I think the point may be that a more hardcore follower of the Moshran religion would be more like likely to buy into the selfish cruel enjoy-your-own-teammate-suffering type persona which reflects the Moshran description, rather than ALL evil villians, of other gods and non-religoius, behaving that way.

Dyluck wrote:I think the point may be that a more hardcore follower of the Moshran religion would be more like likely to buy into the selfish cruel enjoy-your-own-teammate-suffering type persona which reflects the Moshran description, rather than ALL evil villians, of other gods and non-religoius, behaving that way.

Don't think that was how Damien intended it since he grouped the "temple" with it. Not to mention 90% of the time the temple was around it was a town and not a temple...just a tid-bit of info...

@Cromwell : No, i am definitely not "on crack" as you put it so nicely : There's absolutely no need to become insultive about opinions, especially if it concerns a more amusing (game)matter like this one.
If you read my post rather than flying over it, you'll also find that i was indeed mainly pointing at moshran cultists and villains, not darker themed characters in general (even if i used a bit irony and a few side slaps here and there which might make my post a bit harder to understand).
Playing a blood god cult as a town just doesn't hit the nail on the head. I'd say it even hits the thumb.

And yes, it is exactly the "attacking everyone and be evil, then come into town acting nice and normal expecting everyone else to accept it" - habit which i find throughoutly game-disturbing and illogical : Get attacked in public by some bloodthirsty killer who gets away, meet him the next day and be yelled at for being "intolerant" and wanting him locked away safely is kinda disturbing too, don't you think

Oh, and Newsflash back @Crommy : single mortals = not even a tiny bit useful to EVIL gods... more like, a nuisance... and completely replaceable. That's the concept of CHAOTIC EVIL alignments, and Moshran's definitely intended to favour exactly that, and no other alignment amongst possible follower organisations. That's why cultists where usually intended to be NPCs only, not players, but that changed quickly cause everyone wanted to play one.

Damien wrote: And yes, it is exactly the "attacking everyone and be evil, then come into town acting nice and normal expecting everyone else to accept it" - habit which i find throughoutly game-disturbing and illogical : Get attacked in public by some bloodthirsty killer who gets away, meet him the next day and be yelled at for being "intolerant" and wanting him locked away safely is kinda disturbing too, don't you think

Let's say a blood-thirsty killer comes in town and tries to kill someone. Then the killer sends them to the cross. The next day that person sees the killer again. You would think they would be scared, but in Illarion they are stubborn and most of the time and rude to the killer. Let's also say some of the guards like the killer and the people in the government that dislike the killer have only made futile attempts to stop the killer. Is the killer wrong for meeting someone in town they need to meet? Or getting armor? Or food?

Damien, not every follower of every god was intended to sin in the eyes of their god, but they do anyways. In fact, a large chunk of the world's population will tell you they sin everyday even though that doesn't fit their religion. Human nature I think is the reasoning.

Mr. Cromwell wrote:

Damien wrote:ROFLMAO, i didn't want to write in here, but that's a really good gag. Moshran -_saving_- characters...
Not that it would be a [irony]"little bit"[/irony] more appropriate for any Moshran related thing to NOT rescue anyone or anything who/what is in a need and cannot get out by own strength, uhm, rescuing - is a complete misinterpretation of the whole thing. Of course such things can happen if a GM is involved, because being moody belongs to playing an evil NPC too. That's an exception, of course : putting "moshran saved my very ass" into your char background is kinda, well, you get it. Some people did it, and not too few, even if using other words. There are exactly three letters for that, the first is an L, the third too, and in the middle comes the O !
Like the temple thing, when they "rescued" their fellow cultists from the prison again and again and again. And that, instead of letting them rot slowly while being happy about the possibility of a free, possibly "higher" position they could claim themselves. Not to mention at all, the little fact that those imprisioned ones were incabable enough to get cought(even repeatedly), and should deserve to be removed to make room for stronger and more witty ones...

To explain the concept in an easy way:
Just imagine you were some really twisted, evil, powerhungry, sadistic 455hole who believes in nothing but that strength and brutality as well as mean trickery are the solution to everything, would you rather rescue someone or watch him get torn to pieces, preferrably slowly ? Hmh ? Hmmmh ? Does the bell ring ? *g*
Keep in mind when playing a villain : one other person out of the way is exactly one person less to share all the power with. AND one possible dagger out of ones own evil back, too !
Remember, Dr.Evil is not Dr.Evil2's friend. The concept of being a villain - especially, an evil cultist - includes happily falling into each another's back when there's even a little gain in it.

Just my opinion as (sometimes-)player, but having all these "friendly" villains of the neighbourhood around who help each other and everyone else and drink with the common townsfolk in the tavern when they're not busy planning their next bloody human sacrifice or how to conquer and enslave the world kinda really ruin the mood in illarion to a somewhat very laughable point.

I am not entirely sure how I should react to this post. Hilarity? Disbelief?

Are you on crack?

It seems to me that you are reducing all evil characters into one dimensional, chaotic, bloodthirsty, brainless and disloyal muppets. What you are describing is essentially chaotic evil. Me, me, me.

A lawful evil villain methodically takes what he wants within the limits of his code of conduct without regard for whom it hurts. He cares about tradition, loyalty, and order but not about freedom, dignity, or life. He plays by the rules but without mercy or compassion. He is comfortable in a hierarchy and would like to rule, but is willing to serve. He condemns others not according to their actions but according to race, religion, homeland, or social rank. He is loath to break laws or promises.

This reluctance comes partly from his nature and partly because he depends on order to protect himself from those who oppose him on moral grounds.

Newsflash!
Not all characters do evil things for the sake of doing evil things, they might actually do such acts to achieve certain set goals. As these goals are achieved, they function pretty much like every other member of the society, which includes, yes, drinking and shagging with the rest of the villagers.

As for evil god saving a follower, well: As unthinkable as it may sound for you, a useful servant is a useful servant, no matter how much delight you would derive from having him torn apart. This should apply for gods as well, but meh: When you purpose-design the only evil god to be batshit crazy, and quite unservable (if the players were supposed to follow your line of thought) except for the most stereotypical, polarized, bloodthirsty and shortlived thugs.

Seriously. I'm beginning to see why Illarion's pantheon is so woefully inadequate and reduced to such utter insignificance ingame-wise.

Wait... Is this your first time meeting Damien? Let me introduce you...

Damien wrote: single mortals = not even a tiny bit useful to EVIL gods

100 cents still make a euro.

I wanted more gods back then, but the rest of the staff slapped me so i had to cut them down and we now have only 16 for all races.
I admit to have cheated a tad by throwing in Bjolmur, Drargorok and Cherass, but they're usually not used by players.
Anyhow the 16 should be enough, and the other gods have a few dark traits as well, they're just not "really, really, really frickin' evil".

A problem of many players is, when creating a "bad" char, they usully want him "really" evil, and they connect "really" evil with "moshran" immediately. It's like : "Oh, lets make a villain, they're fun, but hmmh why could he be a villain, oh, wait, yeah, Moshran !"

But without reading the infos they can get about it, it doesn't really work out too well. Playing a well-played villain is hard because of two reasons : 1. One has to be creative, and 2. one really has to work out a scheme for the char. Not just "be evil", but more details : Personal traits, psychological weaknesses, that all are tiny things that add up to make a "villain" character "evil", even if he has some "good" traits as well. And that with some character depth ! A Character scheme like that can easily fill a page, even without taking away the possibility of acting spontaneously.

But noone wants to do that. People don't want to write down even half a page of character concept before playing. People dislike thinking about why their char should act like a villain, or if, they use short, easy "excuses", the shortest being : "Moshran", which was used by too many already.

There are millions of ways to create a villain, or several, each differing from the other and each not having to do anything with "Moshran" at all.
If you really want to make a villain with some actual depth, some persona and perhaps some style as well, a char that does not have "excuses" to act how he does, but "reasons" (No, "elfies killed my parents" is NOT such a thing), if you're not afraid of working out a longer char scheme that noone else knows (or will ever read), you can PM me and we can go through the creation of such a char together.

But if you just want to hack away and need an excuse for agressive ingame behaviour, forget it

Well, the door has two sides

*Creates a demon paladin of Zambra*

*creates a Paladin of Ronagan, the long overlooked god of lawfull evil...*

Seansan worshipped Bragon even though he was long gone.....I think he did well, dont you Damien?

To me knowledge Dravish never broke his bonds.

He ursurped the one whom was given charge of him due to his power's exceeding his masters. But in the greater scale he was still a pawn to the greater powers.

Where did you come from?

The cave which holds all the loot of those i Pk'ed.

Which is that huge cave guarded by spiders, fire spiders, flying skulls and summoner demons that could also hold one or two of Samantha's Archmage rings

Damien wrote:Which is that huge cave guarded by spiders, fire spiders, flying skulls and summoner demons that could also hold one or two of Samantha's Archmage rings

ASSEMBLING A RAIDING PARTY!

WHO IS WITH ME!

Gods are boring.

Cliu Beothach wrote:Gods are boring.

Shouldn't you be busy reading Emerson?

Lrmy wrote:

Cliu Beothach wrote:Gods are boring.

Shouldn't you be busy reading Emerson?

Emerson is boring.