Illarion.org

After reading through the poll about what we like and dislike about illarion in the general bord, it seems to me, that the comunication between the staff and the playercomunity is the biggest problem. I came to think about that and got an idea.

How about both, the german and the english comunity chose a speaker (maybe new election all three or four months) that will care for the opinion of the comunity. Those speakers could be the ones to talk to for the players, if there are any problems, while the speakers will be given the right to attend to staff-discussions plus the right to read and post in the internal bords to inform the comunity about the most important plans and stuff, while trying to stand for the opinion of the playercomunity in staff.

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Nachdem ich die Umfrage im Allgemeinen Teil des Forums mit "Was ich an Illa mag/nicht mag" gelesen habe, habe ich festgestellt dass die Komunikation zwischen Staff und Spielerschaft eines unserer größten Probleme zu sein scheint. Ich hab ein wenig drüber nachgegrübelt und mir kam folgende Idee:

Wie wäre es, wenn sowohl die deutsche, wie auch die englische Spielerschaft einen Spieler wählt, der sie im Staff vertritt und für ihre Meinung eintritt. (vll. mit Neuwahlen alle drei oder vier Monate) Man könnte diesen "Spielersprechern" den Zugriff aufs interne Forum geben, sowie das Recht sich an Diskussionen im Staff zu beteiligen. Die Spieler hätten dann jmd. an den sie sich gezielt mit ihren Wünschen, Problemen und Anregungen wenden können und der Staff wäre ein wenig entlastet, was das ewige durchforsten und entmüllen der Spielermeinungen angeht.

Ich halte das für eine gute Idee. Da ja nu doch hauptsächlich die Spieler sich beschweren wobei der Staff alles andere zu erledigen hat. Die ihre Arbeit hier umsonst machen und weil es ihnen spaß macht.
Und für manche Spieler wäre es einfacher etwas anzusprechen bei einem Spieler als bei einem vom Staff.

Bin genau der gleichen Meinung wie Shen^^

I see a certaint problem there, the illarion community is splitted into several groups or cliques.. and everyone would want one of their group to be a speaker, if you decde on one, others will beginn to moan and propos other people for it, but if we then increase the numbers of speaker we won't get something done.
Other than that..good idea.

*g* sowieso dabei *blickt zu nora und vil* kommt euch das bekannt vor?

That's why I said one for the english people and one for the german ones, since the biggest gap is between english and german speakers I think. Also, if we do a vote via poll +maximize the number of times a single player can be voted again, we should get rid of that problem with the moaning.

Find ich gut, würde vieles erleichtern

I am against it. The internal forum is not accessible for a good reason. If a ("corrupt") speaker is elected s/he could - in the most extreme case - copy&paste the internal pages.

So here we have a discrepancy between the favourite user and the staff's "chosen" responsible users.

I can't see a reasonable solution.

In general I don't think its a bad idea, but i want to add a few points.

I think its would be better if there is only one "player speaker" for serveral reasons.
1. I get annoyed by only one persons. j/k
2. I think if the community is "forced" to descide for one player speaker, I hope the different "groups" within our community come together a little more.
3. I think the staff members are more willing to answer questions, knowing that they have to answer them only once. Its boring to tell the same stuff 20 times and the feeling that the answers are useless comes up fast.

Nitram

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Generell denke ich das das keine schlechte Idee ist, aber ich würde trotzdem gern einige Punkte anfügen.

Ich denke es ist am besten wenn es nur einen Spielersprecher geben würde. Die Gründe dafür hier:
1. Ich werde nur von einer Person genervt.
2. Wenn die Community sich auf einen Spieler einigen muss der sie vertritt, kommen die Grüppchen in der Community etwas näher zusammen.
3. Ich denke einige Staff-Mitglieder werden eher willens sein, Antworten zu geben, mit dem Wissen das sie die Antworten nur einmal geben müssen. Immer wieder das selbe erzählen ist langweilig und wird schnell als Zeitverschwendung aufgefasst.

Nitram

I think one of the big problems actually is that the staff choses people. Many peopla moan about gms or tech-staffs that have some favourite players that somehow know a lot more about the developing and the engine than the normal players.

Edit:

Ich seh bei nur einem Sprecher auch das Sprachproblem. Wird ein englischer Spieler gewählt kann dieser sich nicht um die nur deutschsprachigen kümmern, wird ein deutscher gewählt der englisch wird er bei komplizierteren Angelegenheiten Probleme haben alles 100% richtig zu übersetzen. Außerdem gibt es viele englische Spieler die sich jetzt bereits beschweren dass es zu wenige englische Muttersprachler im Staff gibt.


The problem about only one chosen speaker that I see here is, that an english only player won't be able to care for those who speak only german, while a german one who speaks both languages will have problems with the more complicated discussions and stuff. Also, there are a lot of english players that already complain about too less english staff members.

The idea behind this idea (yeah!) is based on an illogical assumption. Basically, the staff is MADE of players!
It's not that the staff consists of "outsiders" who "rule" Illarion, but the staff consists of players like you and you already.
So, you are going to vote for a player-speaker to speak to other players?! Whats that?
Furthermore, you're probably expecting too much from this. I mean, seriously, even having access to 1 or 2 internal forums wouldn't be worth a cent, as not much is going on there actually.

Oh, and as for the staff chosing people: This is utter nonsense. While this of course holds for GMs, it does not hold for techies, as techies chose themself by simply doing something technical, you know. And once again, the staff consists of players! It's not "we" and "them", it's just "we".

Martin

Pellandria wrote:I see a certaint problem there, the illarion community is splitted into several groups or cliques.. and everyone would want one of their group to be a speaker, if you decde on one, others will beginn to moan and propos other people for it, but if we then increase the numbers of speaker we won't get something done.
Other than that..good idea.

I agree fully with Pellandria here ... no offense


So, wie es momentan bzw. seit geraumer Zeit im Forum aussieht, wird diese Idee nichts bringen. "Spielersprecher" ... hallo? wo sind wir hier? Wieviel Mitspracherecht habt ihr in anderen Spielen?

Es gibt das Proposals-Board, wo nach einigem Gemecker sich meiner Meinung nach schon einiges zum Besseren gewandt hat, was die Resonanz des Staff angeht. Das Proposal-Board ist glaube ich das, woraufhin "Spielersprecher"auch abzielen würden:

ihr habt Ideen, prima, teilt sie mit, mittlerweile kommt ja auch eine Resonanz vom Staff, unterbreitet sie weiterhin im Proposal-Board;

ihr habt Fehler entdeckt, die beiseitigt werden sollten?
> Flyspray ist euer Freund

Rechtschreibfehler? da gibt's auch nen Thread

wie ich das sehe, haben sowohl englisch- als auch deutschsprachige Spieler am Wiki / Illapedia zusammengearbeitet, um was für neue Spieler zu tun,

Noradur hat etwas gestartet, um neuen Spielern zu helfen

alte/ältere Spieler wissen, an wen sie sich wenden können, wenn es Probleme gibt

Leute, ihr vergesst einfach eines, das ich immer nur wiederholen kann:
setzt bitte nicht voraus, daß der Staff 24/7 für euch da ist.
Da sind Leute, die ihre Freizeit opfern, die sich ihre Ärsche für euch aufreissen, die euch unterhalten, das Spiel für euch weiterentwickeln, sich per msn/ICQ bombardieren lassen ... denkt ihr auch darn, dass diese Leute ein Leben neben Illa haben?! Was erwartet ihr? Nochmal die Frage: wieviel Mitspracherecht habt ihr bei anderen Spielen.

von mir hier jetzt letztmalig auf gut deutsch und unmissverständlich meine Meinung:
dieses blöde "ich will aber" Gehabe kotzt mich an! Wenn euch das Spiel nciht passt, spielt was anderes!
Ich frage mich, wie Illa seit Jahren überleben konnte, wo es so lief wie es lief. Ohne "ich will", "ich fände besser", "können wir nicht" ...

Oh, mein erster Vorschlag an den Spielersprecher:
können wir bitte das Forum deaktivieren ...


Übersetzung folgt vllt morgen, jetzt geh ich ins Bett *grummel*

hm I was never told not to blab about internal affairs... but it is self-evident I think.

But for a better communication concerning the scripters (I can only speak for this part), I could imagine a topic for each scripter in the development section where we are to inform on what we are working currently, unless otherwise told.

Perhaps this could work for all Devs...

It doesn't matter to me.
More than likely, even if this is implemented, it won't change anything.

I think the development board should be used more personally. Instead of a new feature popping up and everyone has to 'enjoy' it, people should know when something new is coming, and a chance given to vote on it.

So far the development board is cobwebbed, the only person I ever see updating it is Lennier.

I don't think we need a player representative to be honest, its not the way to get more communication.

Pellandria wrote:I see a certaint problem there, the illarion community is splitted into several groups or cliques.. and everyone would want one of their group to be a speaker, if you decde on one, others will beginn to moan and propos other people for it, but if we then increase the numbers of speaker we won't get something done.
Other than that..good idea.

/signed so hard.

Taeryon, there are not two factions being "German" and "English". This is ridiculously clear. There are several English factions and several German, and think about dislike between the leader and other people. A leader is more likely to disregard the thoughts/ideas of those they dislike.

Plus what Martin said.

i dont think that the problem are players, that do not express their wishes and opinions.
apart from crating another "job" with another person to be flamed at, it would only open the gap between those players, who help developing the game and those, who do not.


ich glaube nicht, dass das problem aus spielern besteht, die ihre meinungen und wuensche nicht artikulieren.
abgesehen davon, dass da ein neuer "job" kreiert wuerde, mit jemand mehr, der angegriffen wuerde, wuerde dies nur den abstand vergroessern zwischen den spielern, die das spiel weiter entwickeln, und den anderen.

ich gebe zu bedenken, dass wenn es nur einen sprecher gäbe, dieser nur zweisprachig sein könnte (bzw. jemanden bräuchte der zweisprachig ist). da sonst ein grossteil der spieler seine wünsche nicht ausformulieren könnte.

Hadrian_Abela wrote:So far the development board is cobwebbed, the only person I ever see updating it is Lennier.

You thinkin? PO Lennier was just the last one updating it.
There is just not much to update...

btw, some features were discussed in the proposals board before. So all users had the chance to take part.

pharse wrote:

Hadrian_Abela wrote:So far the development board is cobwebbed, the only person I ever see updating it is Lennier.

You thinkin? PO Lennier was just the last one updating it.
There is just not much to update...

there was this good day /bad day thing to update. also the progress of the paperdoll (i think its paperdoll) were a good point for the development board. i mean its on the test server and no one knows about it...

i think there is a lot you can post.

It's not paperdoll, it's "examine closely".

the good/bad day was new to me too... But the Devs wanted it to implement for reasons which only they know because they have the overview. So there was no point to "ask" in the forums. This was stated before I think, so no need to discuss this again.

maybe, but there are other things like the examine command. and i am sure, the devs working on other things in this moment.

Sure. --> Newbie island. But because there was not that much help offered -as one could assume- to my post in the general board, I don't think it is necessary to post anything in the Dev section for lackadaisical users.

Alright, had a cup of coffee, so here the translation for our English-speaking players, even if they might not care about my personal opinion:

As it looks on the forum presently, this idea won’t lead anywhere (flame wars, ooc-quarrels between players). “player speaker” … hello? Where are we? How much right for voting/voice do you have in other games?

There is the proposal-board, where after some moaning things turned out better now concerning answer of the staff. The proposal board in my opinion is what a “player speaker” would aim at:

You have ideas? Fine, announce them at the proposal board, there are opinions/feedback from the staff (even if not immediately, yes, sometimes things take time);

You recognized mistakes/bugs, which should be fixed?
> flyspray is your friend (yes, they work on flyspray, not immediately, not constantly, but it is worked on)

Spelling mistakes? There is also a thread

As I recognized, there are many things done together, in cooperation German/English-speaking players: the Illapedia to help new players

Noradur’s NHC

Old/elder players know whom to turn to in case of problems/questions

Guys, you constantly seem to forget, what I can only repeat:
Please don’t take the staff for granted to work and be there for you 24/7.
Those are people who spend their free time, who work their asses of to entertain you, develop the game for you, let themselves be bombarded on msn/ICQ … please keep in mind that those people have a life beside Illa … what do you expect? And again my question: how much right for voting/voice do you have in other games?

Now, for the last time and absolutely clear and understandable my personal opinion:
This stupid and constant “but I want” stuff really pissed me off! If you don’t like the game, go and play some other!
I really ask myself, how Illa was able to survive during the last years as it was running as it did, without “I want”, “I would rather”, “couldn’t we” ….

Oh, my first suggestion to the player speaker would be:
Could we deactivate the forum please …


PS It might be the fact, that I am about 20 years older than the average of the other players.
But couldn’t you guys once simply be thankful for the things you have, for what is offered to you for free instead of moaning all the time? You can’t always get what you want

klingt gut


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sounds good

I totally agree with martin in this. Instead of carving the "gap" between players and players (staff) into stone, one should try to reduce this felt gap. To be honest, I do not think the communication between players (staff) and players is not that bad, but it could be improved. The development progress board is a good step, it has to be used more frequently, though. Also, the proposal board is on a good way, even though I'd like to see more "general" proposals instead of minor requests that make the game more and more complicated.

In the past, we had so called player-gm-chats. Do you think such chats, e.g. in IRC with a given topic, could help the situation?

Estralis Seborian wrote: In the past, we had so called player-gm-chats. Do you think such chats, e.g. in IRC with a given topic, could help the situation?

probably ... though the players in there are mainly also ig while on irc and the staff members mainly also seem busy, there is not much communication going on during the times I have been there

I don't play atm.. you all know this and I read the whole stuff with carefulness.

I agree hereby with Dariya and with martin.. and to be honest... If I would see a playerspeaker and think this is a poor sod. Sorry for to say that so blatant, the only necessary for this would be that the staff has to speak with only one or two players....

Seriously --- I'm pretty sure this would change simply nothing.

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I spiele im Moment nicht... ihr alle wißt das und ich habe das ganze mit Sorgfalt gelesen.

I stimme hiermit mit Dariya und martin überein.. und um ehrlich zu sein.. würde ich einen Spielersprecher sehen ich würde denken das ist ein armes Schwein.. Entschuldigt dass ich das so krass formuliere, aber die einzige Notwendigkeit dafür sehe ich darin dass der Staff nur noch mit ein oder zwei Spielern zu sprechen hat.

Ernsthaft ..... Ich bin ziemlich sicher es würde einfach nichts ändern.

Seriously --- I'm pretty sure this would change simply nothing

Agreed, then there would be "flame wars" between the players and not agreeing with the speaker. Uh *laughs* though it might put the speaker on the fire instead of the staff.