Illarion.org

I like and I don't like the idea of npc teachers. On one part, it would be great for those that want their char to be a mage and have to wait at endless lines of students, but on the other part, we risk having a lot of l337 speakers pk-ers and zero skill roleplayers walking arround and shooting magic left and right. I say that a written aplication at the beggining of the char would be a neat idea.
Also, to be a mage, one should have good knowledge of the world of illarion.. How about, if going trough with this, to force players to have a test of some sorts that would require them to read a lot of books (also means that one must have good library research skill - a mage should be able to read lol). Per example, we could have an Archmage npc char in the MA that does this.. As for the high lvl runes, I say we leave them still for player to player teaching.

martin wrote:

Nalzaxx wrote:Punishing players who are unable to meet a minimum time/teaching quota because of a poor system is both unfair and unintelligent.

Speaking of unintelligent:
A teacher who does not teach and therefore loses the possibility to teach is, in your eyes, "punished"?

If this is the case, we have a real problem. We can't talk to eachother then, because obviously the words we use do not have the same meaning for you and me.

So, taking away something that you do not use and do not need by the real owners (us, the staff) is punishment, yes?

Well then.

Martin

I work hard for 10 years and buy a house in England. I live in the house for awhile but decide I want to take a holiday.

I go to Spain for a holiday, but I like it there, so I rent a house out there and live there a few years.

In the meantime, there is a housing shortage in England and the government takes my house to put other people in.

I decide that I've had enough of Spain and return to England. Only to find that I no longer have a house because I wasn't using it those years I was in Spain.

Yes, sounds perfectly fair to me.

Well, npc teachers have some advantages, but they should only teach very basic runes IMO. Also, are there still students who have been waiting for a teacher for a long time? And by that I mean like a year? I havent seen anyone in some time.. And soon Taeryon is taking students as well... seems to me teachers are no longer a problem?

Nalzaxx wrote:I work hard for 10 years and buy a house in England. I live in the house for awhile but decide I want to take a holiday.

I go to Spain for a holiday, but I like it there, so I rent a house out there and live there a few years.

No, this is not a fitting analogy.

I tell you the reasons:
1) If you decide to go on holidays, you will tell your boss and you will most likely tell it to your friends, family and coworkers. You don't just LEAVE and don't tell anyone.
2) There is of course, as always, the option for mag-teachers to take a break (and thus not having their bhona removed).
3) In your example, you BOUGHT a house in england. However, noone bought the bhona-rune. Also, the house is of use for YOU, you can live there and you don't get wet when it rains. The bhona-rune has NO whatsoever use for you.
4) You own that house. You don't own the rune.
5) ...

In the meantime, there is a housing shortage in England and the government takes my house to put other people in.

I decide that I've had enough of Spain and return to England. Only to find that I no longer have a house because I wasn't using it those years I was in Spain.

Yes, sounds perfectly fair to me.

Yes, speaking of unintelligent again, create a proper analogy. This was not even a try. It was crap.

I tell you a real analogy now:
Your boss says "Hey, Nalzi, you worked so good, I tell you what: You can borrow a car from me for FREE, you don't have to pay anything! I see that you work hard and I see that you just got that bicycle to come to work, so, here you are!"
You take the car and drive to work with it, day after day.
However, after 5 month or so, you just don't show up anymore. You didn't tell him that you parked his car somewhere else. You didn't tell him that you're not gonna come anymore. You just left the country, noone knows where you are.
Your boss decides: Hey, it's MY car after all! You don't use it anymore, you didn't come to work without telling my a word, you don't need that car anymore! So, I take it back.

Here's your analogy. It's not perfect, but it's more fitting.

Martin

I feel sorry for the Boss who has to track down this man that left the country with an unknown location just to get his car back.

If you start teaching, then I agree that you should finish, but it might take some time to find a student who suits your char.... I mean, if my apprentice ever becomes a teacher, he is not going to run around to find a student, he will wait til he meets the perfect one. That might take some time?

Executor wrote: Also, are there still students who have been waiting for a teacher for a long time?

http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... ht&start=0

Since an aspiring mage can't craft well and earn much copper that way, nor fight well and go with a group of fighters, the char is made to be a mage and they can't even RP a mage, some get discouraged. I know of a couple that have been deleted, there may be more (and they were very good RPers IMO), but I have also seen some still ig occasionally.

I would disagree.

I think that the player/character does own the rune.

You didn't lease out BHONA to players, you GAVE it to them. Your boss didn't say you can borrow this car, he said you can have this car.

In either case these characters have worked hard for the rune, you loose nothing by them having it. If they have it and don't teach no-one gets taught. If they don't have it. No-one gets taught. If they take a break and come back they can resume teaching again.

And since when should we have to tell everyone we're leaving. Most of the time it isn't a sudden decision, you get bored, log in less and less, then get pre-occupied with real life issues.

Don't remember that this is also a game, not a commitment. If people have to commit to an even greater extent then you are only going to amplify the problem we have now.

@Kevin
The point is, that even if the system worked with the following batch of students, what promises that we would have a working system still in say, six months after that? Nothing. That is the bad thing with this system. All success is temporary, as we cannot be sure that the key players do what they are supposed to do in any give time from this moment on, even if they were doing the right things now.

And that just is not the kind of long-term working system I would like to see. If the gamemasters and devs have to tweak the system like this every two weeks, then it obviously is not working. Though, it has been obvious that this system was failure from the start (due to the reasons mentioned above and a bunch of others which have been repeated ad nauseam).

Personally, I think that a system where the basics are obtainable individually through NPC (or alternatively, through a teacher.. but this would be voluntary now. I would be willing to give some bonus for teaching in order to encourage PC-PC interaction), but which is supplemented through PC-PC teaching and (GM) quest obtainable runes when it comes to more advanced magic would be the best.

And like I have said before: Those PO-mages who feel 'that they have worked for nothing' now really are quite selfish and sad people. Lets keep the not-working system and make everyone wait because I had to wait too.

Be-au-ti-ful.

Kaila Galathil wrote:

Executor wrote: Also, are there still students who have been waiting for a teacher for a long time?

http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... ht&start=0

Since an aspiring mage can't craft well and earn much copper that way, nor fight well and go with a group of fighters, the char is made to be a mage and they can't even RP a mage, some get discouraged. I know of a couple that have been deleted, there may be more (and they were very good RPers IMO), but I have also seen some still ig occasionally.

I know tons of good WARRIOR chars that have been deleted:/ If you ONLY play illa to get a mage, then well, your problem. I waited for a year before I finally got my chance, meanwhile ive had lots of fun with warrior characters, and I do not plan on stop playing them.

What is the problem about a teacherless mage not being able to earn much money til he becomes a real mage? Playing a starving mage apprentice can be fun... If that discourages you so much... make a warrior?

Newbies usually will not wait a year until they can play the role they want to.

They wait half an hour, then they abandon the game for good.

Estralis Seborian wrote:Newbies usually will not wait a year until they can play the role they want to.

They wait half an hour, then they abandon the game for good.

OR they give it some days and realize that there's more to playing some games than just getting what they want right away. Do you really want the kind of players that can arrive and find a mage teacher in half an hour?

I'm going to promote the sacrifice stones until my fingers don't work anymore.

Kaila Galathil wrote:Since an aspiring mage can't craft well and earn much copper that way, nor fight well and go with a group of fighters, the char is made to be a mage and they can't even RP a mage, some get discouraged. I know of a couple that have been deleted, there may be more (and they were very good RPers IMO), but I have also seen some still ig occasionally.

Preposterous, money is not hard to get at ALL.

Kaila just doesn't have very good ideas evidently .

I supose my point is: Few mages... GREAT!

There are maybe 3-4 active mages at the moment. Perfect if you asked me, this is how I felt about it during the year I was waiting for a teacher as well.

I do not say this because I want it to be fair to us who have waited for so long, i say it because I think it is how it should be.

Soon there will be some easy spells for the new hopeful mages to learn. Hopefully this should please the POs. I still don't think getting a teacher should be any easier though.

Estralis Seborian wrote:Newbies usually will not wait a year until they can play the role they want to.

They wait half an hour, then they abandon the game for good.

True, but most agree to play a warrior. I have only met one new player this far, who has left the game because he couldnt play a mage.

Quinasa wrote:Do you really want the kind of players that can arrive and find a mage teacher in half an hour?

I want every kind of player who wants to roleplay with us. Sure, challenges are a fine thing, but waiting a year is not a challenge Thus, we need a new learning system asap.

Executor wrote: If that discourages you so much... make a warrior?

I have, among others, and did not say specifically it was I that was discouraged . It just seems to me, waiting a year to be able to RP a char you made for a game is a little excessive. But, even the first level runes can help make a char "feel" more like what they were made for.

Even worse is having an elf who won't leave Tol Vanima usually and who won't accept teachers other than elves.

Juliana D'cheyne wrote:

Executor wrote: If that discourages you so much... make a warrior?

I have, among others, and did not say specifically it was I that was discouraged . It just seems to me, waiting a year to be able to RP a char you made for a game is a little excessive. But, even the first level runes can help make a char "feel" more like what they were made for.

I know your chars:P
Anyways, yes, the basic runes available for everyone will be great, and allow players to rp mages. It is also fun to rp a wise char though, and that is exactly what a mage without runes is. If you are not willing to do that for at least half a year, you wont make a very good mage I think:/

This is all about what we want though. Does Illa still want few mages?

Noone sayd you HAVE, just that you should be prepared to wait for some time.

Quinasa wrote:Wait, who says you have to wait a year? I missed something somewhere I think...

Well, with the current teachers and students, yeah, likely a year if not more for some.

omg I didn't even start to teach. Will's students allready got their first runes. Don't blame us.

Taeryon Silverlight wrote:omg I didn't even start to teach. Will's students allready got their first runes. Don't blame us.

lol, I'm not.
Just saying, it takes forever to get accepted as a student, not your fault, just cause there are too little teachers and too many students.

Truely, I can see now, why all the teachers quit. I don't even know how they did it that long. I am a teacher for not even a whole four days now and am allready frustrated. Right after the teaching system actually spits out the first results, they decide to put NPCs in, say that the teachers won't manage to do teach enough students and all such trash. Half of the people who say "YEAH; omg wtfsies! Give runes out to everyone!" have not a freaking idea about the magic system or the teaching system. 50% of the people who whine because they don't find teachers are damnit ignorants, who play a char with a billion crafting and fighting skills and then wonder when they don't get accepted. Ok, I whined a lot when I wanted to play a mage and get runes, too. But as soon as I realized that whining doesn't help, I stayed calm and focused on rp and BAM! three weeks later I have teacher. Why don't you people just stop whining, give the new teachers 3 months and then see what happens?

Also, it wouldn't be any problem to change the teaching rules. They are greatly hindering the teaching speed. You could raise the maximum number of apprentices to five, so that the mageteachers could teach a small class and raise the maximum teachable runes per week to 3. About 2 or 3 weeks of active teaching would be enough to teach them what they need to get most of the runes and have enough ig-knowledge to rp a good mage. It would take an other 6 weeks then and we'd have five finished students. Also, the rule for BHONA is crap, too. The teachers should be allowed to deicde by themselves, after one of their students got 18 runes together, if he or she is ready to teach. After all, you can still take BHONA away from those, who use it incorrectly, if you realize any problems after some time.

The teachers should be allowed to deicde by themselves, after one of their students got 18 runes together, if he or she is ready to teach. After all, you can still take BHONA away from those, who use it incorrectly, if you realize any problems after some time.

Amen.

Suggested compromise:

An NPC system is added as well, however people who use his services can only skill ONE aspect of magic. This would be described as 'specialisation'. So if I'm a newbie and I want to become a mage, I get a choice, perhaps he's a healing mage, or a battlemage or anything else.

Once you get a teacher however, you create general purpose mages who train up any skill.

Newbies get their magic, people who know how to RP get more magic and more nyce stuff, and everybody's happy.

Hadrian_Abela wrote:Suggested compromise:

An NPC system is added as well, however people who use his services can only skill ONE aspect of magic. This would be described as 'specialisation'. So if I'm a newbie and I want to become a mage, I get a choice, perhaps he's a healing mage, or a battlemage or anything else.

Once you get a teacher however, you create general purpose mages who train up any skill.

Newbies get their magic, people who know how to RP get more magic and more nyce stuff, and everybody's happy.

the first good suggestion I red in this topic.

Indeed.
Or maybe simply a npc teacher that only teaches 1 lvl runes.

I got BHONA on Sunday and have already held 2 lessons and have arranged a practical for my students to put their new spells into use this weekend