Illarion.org

I just wanted to share a couple of 'somewhat' objective thoughts about the english language players leaving the game. I have made it a point to avoid player conflict and only interest myself in character issues, but this is too big to continue to ignore, in my opinion.

Of course part of the reason is the inevitable 'shopping around' that came with the server issues. The language barrier possibly plays a part, as well. But I think the biggest reason is the tone of the community.

I was very reluctant to go to that 'other' game and was practically dragged there by another player. I can't express how shocked I was to be welcomed with open arms by players and staff alike. I went to that game thinking it would be something to fill in my spare time until Illarion's server issues were resolved. I did not expect to be so drawn in by kindness.

The 'other' game is in some ways better than Illarion, but in many ways it is not as good. The reason the players stay there is not because of the game, it is because of the environment. It's a real pleasure to log in and be made welcome. In Illa most times that does not happen.

I am relatively new to Illarion, but I have grown to love it and would be sad to not continue playing. There are a few players in Illa that have kept me interested as people are leaving. I plan to keep playing, but I think many of the players who have left will not return. Given the choice between logging into a nearly empty game with hostile undercurrents or a game rich with players all happy to have you there, the choice is not difficult to understand.

I would recommend the staff of Illarion go to the 'other' game and see for themselves. Go just to the irc and you will find a big difference. I think there is a lesson to be learned on how to manage the game culture to make people feel welcomed and valued.

I got one word for you. Bravo. Cause guess what you just did? You reminded me of something, somethig that I searched for weeks at some points, asking even PO Pender ( which didn't help). Now, I can pwn someone like I did before. Just gib me a link to dis game?

I am not trying to compare games, however I was pleasantly surprised at the RP and the more then welcome by the staff and every PO I have met. The owner even got on IRC once with me to help me figure out why the game didn't work. But I have met no player ig that didn't spend as much time as needed to help with questions including the GM just to tell us welcome.

Illa will always be first for me, but I am slightly drawn to the atmosphere in this game and it is very disheatening to see some leave and no longer playing that I have in the past enjoyed RPing with. The online list dwindles.

Gah...

I haven't played this game, but have been told by some it is great. However, by others I have been told that its role play is not up to par with illa's. That being said... Role play does require players online... So... I don't know. I wish that there was some way to revive this game. But as Walter said to me, "I'll play until the server explodes!"

Well I'm probaly one of the older player, who still had much worse times in illarion then you will ever see, we had people casting iceflames everywhere, shooting you with the bow, while you had no attacksign at all, means we all had to hide inside houses to get away from snipers, then there was an empty map aswell and it was even liveless, now the map has much more details, no vast empty landscape but flowers, mudholes and nice Forests, in the end its allways the same Illa has sometimes a high flow, just a few weeks ago it was 20 people online ..per day, but this will come back some day, Illa had worser days and will have a bigger community, maybe the flow is only that low because Illa is, after all, not a easy game, Powergamer and "normal" Player don't have such fun here, because its hard to beginn serious play, so just wait we have enough people out there and as soon as the serv stops f-cking up..everything will be fine, changing to any other games brings you nothing believe me, you will allways miss the "magic of Illarion" it has something others don't have, just see that his game is completly without any advertising and I would click on any to help the staff, still they don't want too..its not about making money for them .some do it for the training others maybe just for fun or to bring "joy" to the gamers and this..is by far the really unique, that this game is written from players for players, has his logical ground structure and its own charm...such things are rare.

Pellandria wrote:Well I'm probaly one of the older player, who still had much worse times in illarion then you will ever see, we had people casting iceflames everywhere, shooting you with the bow, while you had no attacksign at all, means we all had to hide inside houses to get away from snipers, then there was an empty map aswell and it was even liveless, now the map has much more details, no vast empty landscape but flowers, mudholes and nice Forests, in the end its allways the same Illa has sometimes a high flow, just a few weeks ago it was 20 people online ..per day, but this will come back some day, Illa had worser days and will have a bigger community, maybe the flow is only that low because Illa is, after all, not a easy game, Powergamer and "normal" Player don't have such fun here, because its hard to beginn serious play, so just wait we have enough people out there and as soon as the serv stops f-cking up..everything will be fine, changing to any other games brings you nothing believe me, you will allways miss the "magic of Illarion" it has something others don't have, just see that his game is completly without any advertising and I would click on any to help the staff, still they don't want too..its not about making money for them .some do it for the training others maybe just for fun or to bring "joy" to the gamers and this..is by far the really unique, that this game is written from players for players, has his logical ground structure and its own charm...such things are rare.

0.0! Well, indeed, we aren't just a game, we are a Role Play game. Where most games go for levels and stuff, we go for sitting around a campfire and telling stories (while the forest will go on fire because we are around a campfire >.> ) and I think you need to play this game first for a week before you can see if you like it or not, because you don't see such game really much.

"Magic of Illarion" <3

Does this topic have any more deeper sense then "Mysterious other Game" > Illarion?
(Just don't tell me its one of these UO-Shards .... don't get me started about this, please.)

What is there to learn for a developer when you criticise the community?
A thing the developer has the least influence at.
How, from a technical view, can a Dev make Illarion more friendly?

Have you even actually ever been in the Illarion IRC?
(Quakenet -> #illarion)

Keikan Hiru wrote:Have you even actually ever been in the Illarion IRC?
(Quakenet -> #illarion)

Yes, I have.

Keikan Hiru wrote: What is there to learn for a developer when you criticise the community?
A thing the developer has the least influence at.
How, from a technical view, can a Dev make Illarion more friendly?

Develop little smiley faces flying around ig?


But anyway, from some of the games I checked, I have to say the community indeed was much nicer, even though most suck horribly for my timezone. I don't see much wrong with the mechanics of the game, nothing there I think would make me leave, basicly, atleast for me the problem is that around the times I usually play/can play, most don't bother speaking to someone English, atleast this is what I figuired, and of course those who don't bother at all. And honestly, for the community part, I've made some nice friends here but it's not like 'one big happy family' thingie, wich would deffinetly be best, but close-to impossible.

I may be taking a little break, or, somewhat already have, I've hardly been ig, but that is also largely because of some rl stuff bothering me.
But I kinda doubt that I'd ever really, forever will be leaving. Illarion still has some things no other game really has.

But anyway, hard or not my opinnion is something has to be done about the community, only what is kind of the question.

Feel free to comment.

I think that Pell put everything into a nice perspective. I haven't been here even for 6 months... I suppose I haven't seen Illa in such downtimes. But I think it's fine if people go to play other games... I imagine that they'll come back. I just wish I could do something to make people come back now!

I don't see much wrong with the mechanics of the game, nothing there I think would make me leave, basicly, atleast for me the problem is that around the times I usually play/can play, most don't bother speaking to someone English, atleast this is what I figuired, and of course those who don't bother at all.

Well, that can be a issue, basically it is difficult/hard to RP with anyone when you can't understand the language. I have had positive and negative experiences. There have been a few times where even though I have RP'd in English with the chars, a group will be around the depot and RP in German. Nothing against it but it can have the effect of making you feel left out if you are the only English speaker. Then there are times all will be kind enough to RP in English and I know they are doing it just because my char is there which can also be awkward. I have learned to RP a #me first... some chars will walk by without even a Hello in German, some are kind enough to try and even RP a #me in German, and some will answer in English. So, the multilanguage can be a factor in the game however IMO on the whole that is part of it's charm.

What is there to learn for a developer when you criticise the community?
A thing the developer has the least influence at.
How, from a technical view, can a Dev make Illarion more friendly?

I have no set answer, possibly when the newbie island is set up, we will get some PO's to stay, many just come and leave. An interesting setup though that was just started is: when a new PO is ig, there will be an announcement to all, anyone that wants to only has to say two words (within a 5 min time only) and will be transported to the site of the new player to help teach (which can also be monitored by a GM). On the reverse, those that would prefer not, can avoid that area. I also like the idea of the trial account, then an application for those that are interested in staying.

so just wait we have enough people out there and as soon as the serv stops f-cking up..everything will be fine

I hope so, the situation is worse for the English speaking part of Illa however. In the past there have been anywhere from 7-12 online at the best time of the day to RP. Now anywhere from 1-4 chars max.

"I'll play until the server explodes!"

Me also, even if I RP by myself!

She skips down the streets of Trolls Bane talking to herself.

Honestly, this thing about the 'other game' just goes way over my head.

I find it funny that there has not yet been a valid responce from the staff besides critizising the topic. After all this is aimed at them as well in hopes that they will listen. Dispite the fact that yes, she is most likely talking about this UO shard, she is also trying to get a point across. Even if this game isn't Illarion, and will never be, Illarion, it has a few things that Illa does not have and we could learn from it.

Does this have to do with rp? No. Graphics? No. Skills? No, though they have an interesting concept to it which I wouldn't mind seeing in Illarion as it would be very useful to all non-pgers.

I guess this leaves you thinking, what the hell does this game have that Illa doesn't? Community and friendly staff and players! We let them know that we had a failing server and they were almost desperate for us to stay. On Illa, if someone even posts something in disagreement in the staff, you see them getting their heads bitten off expecially if they are a newbie who just wants to offer up ideas.

How do we fix this? How do we as a community fix this? First off, stop biting everybodies heads off expecially if they are new and rather confused. Yet, in a way, this is not the entire problem. The problem truely lies in the staff.

I'm sure no one is willing to say this, as most people would rather kiss ass and be on the good side of people with power, and I understand entirely. I try to stay on their good side too as I really don't want to cause trouble or get put in a bad possition. But this has been going on for to long and is a suttle reason behind people leaving.

Quite a few times I have seen the staff pull people apart for having opinions that they do not agree with. I have seen aboslute rudeness from the staff from time to time and it has made many things very discouraging. In fact at many times, it has made me want to avoid the staff and pointing out things that could better the community. What could the staff learn from this other game, you say? What can you do to make this game more friendly? First off, actually go an read the forums of this mysterious other game. You will see how the staff treats their players, the new arrivals, and the suggestions. Then take a few steps back from what you do on Illa and look at it from a point as a new player. Read some of the responces from another minds eye. How would you feel if that was you getting ripped apart?

Would you want to stay here after experiancing that from the staff running the game? I wouldn't think so. Go ahead and tell us unhappy players to leave, we can lose more rpers, and damned good ones. The staff makes this game so people can play it. Keep making people unhappy, and you will have no one left to play it. As for me, I'll be around. I'm not leaving any time soon. But I am just another of the unhappy and discouraged players that make up this magical game called Illarion.

-- Allison
-- PO Dantagon Marescot and various other people.

Hello!

Well, not long ago there was a thread about "Illa dying", where I have mentioned that it would not be unwise to listen people complaining about the game instead of flaming them.
Although I'm not a native english speaker I have left Illarion as well and found a new home with another free MMORPG. This other game is far from being perfect but I feel more welcome there.

With kind regards
Ex-PO Magdha Tiefenerz

-_-

Ugh... people with the leaving and the flaming.... I wonder who is still here. *looks up* 4 to 5. Cool. *goes to look for those people*

Dantagon Marescot wrote:I find it funny that there has not yet been a valid responce from the staff besides critizising the topic. After all this is aimed at them as well in hopes that they will listen. Dispite the fact that yes, she is most likely talking about this UO shard, she is also trying to get a point across. Even if this game isn't Illarion, and will never be, Illarion, it has a few things that Illa does not have and we could learn from it.

The staff is listening and the staff is talking about it. You can't just expect a decision or a response in behalf of the whole staff within one single day. And you can't expect that Keikans opinion is that of the entire staff (+ the way he words it.)

- Thorvald

Problem is if the staff are unfriendly people begin to leave, or the players are unfriendly.

Less people means less occourance of roleplay, meaning that people are less willing to answer questions as they have to scout about for RP.

With less answering of questions newbs don't returns because they don't understand the game, because even the once bursting TB pub is empty.

Less newbs means that there are less new RPers being created, so as old RPers leave due to unfriendliness or simply time conflicts etc there are less people to fill their gaps.

Less players means less roleplay etc.

You get the idea, it's an endless thing and it's already in play, as is obvious from the fact that about two years back the server had so many more people on at a time, at most times now-a-days it only has about 12-16 maximum except during the times when people MSN or otherwise messenger to get people on the server for a big event.

(By the way I've played on and off for two years, and really enjoyed the game RP, I however didn't make myself known very much.)

Actually you've played under a year...

I've not even played 2 years yet, Bell. And 2 years ago there were about 10 people ig on a good day.

But they all roleplayed.

The problem isn't the staff, and I don't want to kiss anybodys ass here, but the dammed old players who get this huge " I leave and say whats sh*t in Illa" and then come back and back and bac again, I would get annoyed by them and personally never saw the staff being mean to players, atleast we don't have bitches like back in time, when your char gets banned out of the simply reason that the gm doesn't like you -.-, but you name things like "Staff unfriendly", the only one who was "unfriendly" untill now is only keikan and honestly..Keikan was always like this and many people allready bitched because of this and he hadn't changed.
As I allready said we always lost people and people will always come back then there are "hypes" where suddendly all think there is a great other game and it turns out they come back...and I don't see where newbs questions aren't answered, I for example try to help, as long as the answer is not obvious and with anything technical ..there is an answer in less then a half day normally..so what are you talking about?
Oh and something else, why should the staff hold back with honest anwers, if someone does some sh*t then why should they show "mercy" anywayif someone is unfriendly to you in rl then you won't be friendly to him or?

Personally, I used to prefer illarion when it was just a small community game, when you could have ALL the online player list sitting around one/two campfires, when people would pass by, you greet them and they sit down.

The times when you used to know everyone, when each character MEANT something...



Nowadays I hardly know the name of important officials... let alone most people.

What illarion needs is a tighter community.

LIKE OH MY GAWD! The major run on queen is in da house.

My turn.

Basically i think the real problem of Illarion is not the game engine. It does not work perfectly allways, but all in all its not bad. The development is really slow so noone can complain "It changes to fast".
The way of introducing new things is... discussable. But thats not the real problem.

I think we have serval problems like newbie treatment, player treatment, staff treatment, staff - player communication and roleplay atmosphere.

Okay. Newbie treatment is currently like "scare away all new players, who stays is good enougth."
If a new player comes into the game basically 3 things can happen.
1. He finds a GM / other player who is willing to help and shows the newbie around.
2. He finds someone who is not willing to show him around and gets scared away.
3. He is alone.

The first point gets seldom these days. As well as the third one. The newbie spawn in Trollsbane was placed because there were pretty often many characters around in Trollsbane. The the chance was huge that the newbie finds at least someone. Now Trollsbane is empty and we have to think about placing the spawnpoint maybe at a different location.

All in all i like the idea of Kaila.
And it would work pretty easy to set something like this up in case there is a newbie island. The staff will remember that proposal when the newbie island is done.

But beside the first moment treatment of our new players. What is there for a new player. Anything they have to scare. Something that sounds like adventure? Something that shows the possibilities in that game?
I don't think there is anything like this, but this goes hand in hand with the roleplay and game atmosphere. I will say something about this in that post as will. But later

Next point player treatment. Well... I don't have to say that i'm not the most neutral person you can find in Illarion to write about this topic.
The player treatment has to be splitted in 2 parts. First of the way the staff treats the players. At this part i basically can only speak about the way i treat the players. I know its often not what everyone would call perfect. The players have the feeling that they are basically ignored and are only an means to an end. Its not meant this way but many many times its hard to give the players the feeling that they are wanted around here if you get positive feedback really seldom. I hardly know how to change this, but it has to change, thats clear. The problem is the player - staff communication and the way the communication works. I say later something about this.

The second part of the player treatment is the treatment between the players. I only see what i get from the forum but there is a kind of worse group forming. I don't speak about game related groups. No. Just players to group up for whatever reasons and pick at other players. Reasons are different. I don't think that the persons in the forum are a real community. There is small community A who don't like small community B who picks normaly at small community C who ignores small community D. I think you got what i'm talking about. The level of communication and the flaming between the players will become less in case the players stand together. I don't want all players to hug each other and dance around. But we all play a game and if you consider the other players as friends it would be much better.
A good beginning is to try to talk with the ones you really dislike, on a friendly level. That would fix serval problems i think.

Staff treatment. Basically the treatment player - staff.
At this point again, i can only talk about the feelings i get from the players. Intended or not, thats what i get. At mainly every change at the game i do, the feedback that reaches me is negative. All who think its good and find remain silent. So i get more or less no feedback but negative words. That works some time pretty good since i'm able to motivate myself out of more or less nothing pretty good. But that does not work forever. The average level of motivation lowers slowly. I think its the same thing with basically all other staff members. The players don't like what we do is the impression that reaches us. Nearly allways.
Beside this there is no respect of the players in front of the staff. Respect comes and goes with the distance between the persons. In this matter the distance between the staff and the players. I think the staff is all in all pretty close the the players. The staff members are considered from the most players just as members of the community who do some more things for the game here and there. I don't know if this is really good but i doubt it.

What could be a solution? I can't say it for sure. For the feedback thing it would help that those "omg thats worse" topics are avoided. Well-grounded critism by pms or e-mails to the staff members help much more then 30 pages long ranting topics with 29 pages filled with ... not that well-grounded arguments.
For the respect thing, i can't even say if its a real problem or not. Maybe at the player amount we have now its not. Maybe it becomes one in case we have more players. I really can't say it.

The next point is the staff-player communication. I think thats one of the current worst problems that required a urgent fix.
The players think the staff ignores them completly and the proposal board was just a way to make them shut up for a while.
The staff members think the players talk basically seldom something usefull for the game and the proposals are basically useless.

Thats something that needs a change. But how to increase the ability of the players to talk with the staff and the ability of the staff to talk with the players. I have to admit i thave no real idea how to do this. I know about the problem. It maybe helps if some staff members are set into position who have the work to talk with the players and solve problems in case they are able to or forward the players to ther staff members who are able to help. Someone who represents the staff between the players. Maybe it helps. Maybe...

Last point of this small post is the roleplay atmosphere. The main reason why i play really seldom currently. The point is, there is no roleplay atmosphere in Illarion. It just does not exsist.

At the time i just joined in as i joined into the game i heared stories ( it was some time after Darlok was beaten ) that there is a worse land behind the desert now called Varshikar. At the borders they collect taxes and if you don't play they slay you and leave you rotting in the desert.
I was like "woa" I keep myself far away from there. I didn't know that i have to walk 10min to stand in the middle of the Castle of Varshikar. I didn't know that everything there was pretty empty. But i knew the name and feared that worse things happen to my character in case i go there. I avoided this place nearly 2 years.
After this time i found those strange ruins and asked someone what this is. He said "This is Varshikar". The great fear left me instandly

But something like this misses the game completly. Instances ( guilds, towns ) that are respected. Players that are respected. Is there something like this? I don't think so. Everyone is everyones dude.
There are no tensions between the city. You won't meet anyone in Trollsbane ( if you meet one ) who tells you "Up there in Varshikar, there are only bloodthirsty murderers". And in Varshikar you find noone who tells you that Trollsbane is filled with wimps. Just as example. Something like this misses the game really. And those differences make the game interessting.

Something like this can't be established by the staff members i think. Only be the players. Only they are able to make something like this possible. And those players who are in the leader positions are in charge to try to change something.

Thats it for now. Maybe i missed something out... then i post it when it comes into my mind.

Nitram

Nitram wrote: Next point player treatment. Well... I don't have to say that i'm not the most neutral person you can find in Illarion to write about this topic.
The player treatment has to be splitted in 2 parts. First of the way the staff treats the players. At this part i basically can only speak about the way i treat the players. I know its often not what everyone would call perfect. The players have the feeling that they are basically ignored and are only an means to an end. Its not meant this way but many many times its hard to give the players the feeling that they are wanted around here if you get positive feedback really seldom. I hardly know how to change this, but it has to change, thats clear. The problem is the player - staff communication and the way the communication works. I say later something about this.


Staff treatment. Basically the treatment player - staff.
At this point again, i can only talk about the feelings i get from the players. Intended or not, thats what i get. At mainly every change at the game i do, the feedback that reaches me is negative. All who think its good and find remain silent. So i get more or less no feedback but negative words. That works some time pretty good since i'm able to motivate myself out of more or less nothing pretty good. But that does not work forever. The average level of motivation lowers slowly. I think its the same thing with basically all other staff members. The players don't like what we do is the impression that reaches us. Nearly allways.
Beside this there is no respect of the players in front of the staff. Respect comes and goes with the distance between the persons. In this matter the distance between the staff and the players. I think the staff is all in all pretty close the the players. The staff members are considered from the most players just as members of the community who do some more things for the game here and there. I don't know if this is really good but i doubt it.


Nitram

I know I am banned and all, you having alot of bearing on why I am banned. But no matter what, you were always the nicest GM. You get probably 7686576476476533765437 requests a month of msn ( someone them probably half assed at best) and even though you don't fulfill them ( who can blame you for not fulfilling half assed requests?) you still listen to the players.

Well... I don't have to say that i'm not the most neutral person you can find in Illarion to write about this topic.

I seriously dunno why you put this. You always helped me no matter what. I hate that people are saying shit like this. This is illarion guys, it gave you countless memories. Don't turn your back on it and the GM staff that strive to make it a positive environment.

Michael Zanar wrote:
I know I am banned and all, you having alot of bearing on why I am banned. But no matter what, you were always the nicest GM. You get probably 7686576476476533765437 requests a month of msn ( someone them probably half assed at best) and even though you don't fulfill them ( who can blame you for not fulfilling half assed requests?) you still listen to the players.

Well... I don't have to say that i'm not the most neutral person you can find in Illarion to write about this topic.

I seriously dunno why you put this. You always helped me no matter what. I hate that people are saying shit like this. This is illarion guys, it gave you countless memories. Don't turn your back on it and the GM staff that strive to make it a positive environment.

Michael Zanar, think about posting something as such in a nicer tone. I think the goal of this conversation was how to attract people to Illarion/why are people leaving? Saying player requests are half-assed is not something that is remotely posotive. And how would you know if they are half-assed if you aren't even in game to know that proposals are needed?

Not eevryone has the same fovorite GM, I can't even stress to you how many complaints I myself have heard about almost every GM. I am sure the GMs themselves have heard more than I ever will though...BTW, I do like Nitram and I do find him very helpfull.

It's Raheem, jack ass. I was refering to my half assed requests anyway

So… now I just want to say what I think about all this…
I read so much about „there is another game, which is better than Illa“, „there are problems about the languages“ , „there is that less good RP“ and „The stuff is mean“… Oh! I have enough!

Fist of all: The staff does a great job! It is a lot of hard work and they don’t want anything for it! And there are less people I can hear say a simple “Thank you!”

Second: If there is another game… well, play it… but Illa is great the way is. I know, it’s sometimes hard to find someone for a good RP… Especially, if some players don’t have enough patience to wait for you, if you get stressed by typing as fast as possible or because you have to look for some words in the other language… (I’m German)… But stop complaining and start being a good example… I wouldn’t ever say, I’m a good role-player, but I try my very best…

Third: Treatment of Newbies… Oh yes… I can talk about… I’m not that long here, but on my first day IG, I was attacked 3 times, when I asked for help… Nevertheless I’m still here! And why? There were others who helped me out - in both languages by the way…

I think complaining about the community or the game and flaming against players or the staff doesn’t help anyone! The problems you complain about can only be solved if we stop complaining and start to try to communicate right.

Fourth: I think players come and go… They’ll always do… I think talking about an exodus is too much…. Let’s wait and see….

And don’t forget! Illa is a game! It’s there to have fun! All the time wasted by complaining and flaming is time you loose for a good RP! So go on and play to have fun!


~Elvi

I read all, yes ALL posts and to some points I agree, to others I strongly disagree ... anyway, here my two cents again:

you don't like illa presently, the way it works for you, rather don't work out for you?
my proposal: go ingame, try to make it better, or simply leave for while. I don't want to get anyone out of here right now, but fact is: if you get tired of something, the best cure is to stay away from it for a while, until you are looking forward again to playing it, not looking forward to not hearing or seeing anything of it. BUT: if you leave, please, do us a favour, leave without ranting or bitching ... cause imo THIS is what causes the bad mood at the forums and which probably scares new players away. They read something like "you all suck, illa sucks, I'm leaving this crappy place, bye". As a new player I'd be like "aaaaalright, hi and bye, that was it". Just leave for some while and get back if you feel you got the nerves to search for some nice rp, initiate some nice rp, care for new players from time to time but also are ready to deal with days, when you find no rp that pleases and satisfies you, days when only 15 players are ingame, days when some other player rps not the way you expect it ... everyone has some bad days every now and then, we all now it from our RL, why should it be different here?

... which brings me to communication, player/player - player/staff - staff/statt - staff/player, whatever. We are all human, we all can deal with a certain amount of ... let's say bad news, criticism, ranting, proposals here, suggestions there ... it's simply human.
Let's see: how many staff-members are there? what do "we" players expect from them? ... fixing the server, keeping it running, editing/"improving" the map (including new buildings), developing new features/items with graphics and the like, caring about new players, keeping the present players in good mood, reading forums, answering posts, answering PMs, answering messengers, working on magic, working on druidism, working on crafting system, fixing bugs posted here, fixing bugs posted on flyspray ... apart from the real life all of them have.

Yes, there are of course also things I don't like and which bother me, which I would like to see improved, no rather I'd be happy if they'd be improved, but if they are not, I will not spend sleepless nights on them.

Fact is, that those people working on this game (staff or volunteers - not to forget those ) all have a real life with job, school, uni or whatever.

I've been taking a close look at the proposal board since it's been opened. ... some proposals are really nice and they sound like it would be fun to have them implemented. But guys, please, what else do you want? Don't you think it would be more useful to get one things after another fixed and not to start thousands of things at a time, which will NEVER be completed due to one simple fact: lack of time, lack of helping hands (I just remember the topic where help for the new homepage was asked for or even others, don't know).
And if you don't get a reply within the next 2 hours, you start whining. ... and almost each of those whing posts developes to a real nasty flaming and bitching thread.

THIS is what new players scares away, what lowers the mood, lowers the wish to stay on the forums and ingame.

The suggestion has already been made: MAYBE proposal should rather be made by PM (but please Adrian, not 50 a day though some of your proposal really sound smart).
And in case you sent a PM to some staff-member, please keep in mind, that most of them (if not all) are not online/with illa 24/7. Give them time to read, think about it, maybe discuss it with other staff-member and THEN answer. Stop making this game already looking real bad on the forums, cause this is the way it might look now for new players with posts like: this is bad, that could be better, this got worse, those are crappy, don't like that, change this and so on.

Well, more words than intended, sorry, what I wanted to say actually is:
give the limited number of staff-members time
don't expect the staff-members to improve the rp, THIS depends on the players
don't expect the staff-members to post nice and friendly, if you don't

life, also that with illa, could be nice and easy, if you'd expect from others only what you are also willing to give

Nitram wrote: Last point of this small post is the roleplay atmosphere. The main reason why i play really seldom currently. The point is, there is no roleplay atmosphere in Illarion. It just does not exsist.

At the time i just joined in as i joined into the game i heared stories ( it was some time after Darlok was beaten ) that there is a worse land behind the desert now called Varshikar. At the borders they collect taxes and if you don't play they slay you and leave you rotting in the desert.
I was like "woa" I keep myself far away from there. I didn't know that i have to walk 10min to stand in the middle of the Castle of Varshikar. I didn't know that everything there was pretty empty. But i knew the name and feared that worse things happen to my character in case i go there. I avoided this place nearly 2 years.
After this time i found those strange ruins and asked someone what this is. He said "This is Varshikar". The great fear left me instandly

But something like this misses the game completly. Instances ( guilds, towns ) that are respected. Players that are respected. Is there something like this? I don't think so. Everyone is everyones dude.
There are no tensions between the city. You won't meet anyone in Trollsbane ( if you meet one ) who tells you "Up there in Varshikar, there are only bloodthirsty murderers". And in Varshikar you find noone who tells you that Trollsbane is filled with wimps. Just as example. Something like this misses the game really. And those differences make the game interessting.

Something like this can't be established by the staff members i think. Only be the players. Only they are able to make something like this possible. And those players who are in the leader positions are in charge to try to change something.

Thats it for now. Maybe i missed something out... then i post it when it comes into my mind.

Nitram

As someone who was highly involved with that, I can't agree enough. *This* in fact, expresses what a lot of the older players try to express and couldn't find the words for.

For a very long time I've been looking back to the days when I played Moskher Heszche and realized that I wouldn't have had the opportunity to play such a character today at Illarion and the thought of that has poisoned my view of the game.

For those of you who weren't there at the time, Moskher Heszche was a dark mystic who often played advisory roles to some of the major villains of the day. Although his only skill was Library Research, there were people who feared and/or respected the character. There were several points where it was very likely that he was going to end up ruler of Varshikar and the only reason he didn't is because I didn't have the time to play him as such.

While then I was able to avoid death (with a 4 to 6 in all my physical attributes) all but once at the hands of other players, today such a character would be ignored or killed, simply put.

This thread here is perhaps the last example of that kind of roleplay to exist at Illarion:

http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... highlight=

It's not really that hard to see why new players don't stay, just use your imagination to figure out what we're giving them at the beginning. Depending on the time zone, they will log on to a ghost town. Gamers are very impatient people who want to either A) be doing something or B) be entertained, and theyd probably get neither within the first hour of playing under the current circumstances, so they dont stick around. Then other players get discouraged because there are less players and stop playing, leaving fewer players for new people to interact with, leaving less players coming in, and the cycle needs to be broken somewhere.

Game atmosphere is hurt by less people, and it's also hurt because of the spread of population. When this happens players see that same group everyday, and become part of that group, which 'tolerates' other groups, but does not 'engage' with them, there's quite a difference between the two. A crazy idea I probably wouldve opposed just a month or two ago, and might get me flamed by some ( ) would be to cut back on the number of settlements/guilds that are spread around, we don't have the people for this many, and it's showing. Back in the day we were wondering how we could get everyone out of Trolls Bane and to other places, now it seems the opposite.

Also Nitram, with feedback always go under the assumption that those who are discontent with a change will always be louder than those who like it. It takes 1 sentence to praise something, which might get less attention from staff. Disliking a change though ... tends to attract the making of new topics, long drawn out arguments, angry back and forth 'discussion', things that stick to the memory more than a sentence does. People who like a change are content and just accept it, while those who don't seem to feel either a conscious or subconscious belief that angry rants will bring attention to what they feel is a bad change.

Alright, I started this, so I guess it's only right that I take responsibility for it. First of all, if anyone thinks I'm complaining about the game...I'm not. I think the game is incredible and lots of fun. I think the staff is doing an amazing job with the technical stuff and the game has improved greatly through their efforts. So before I say anything else, I want to say a huge 'thank you.' I am in no way trying to say that another game is better. It's not about the game, it's about the community.

Elviane wrote:
If there is another game… well, play it…

I have to say that I don't think this comment is particularly helpful, except to illustrate my point. This comment seems to show an attitude that players can be just thrown away. This is what I would like to see change.

Dantagon wrote:
Does this have to do with rp? No. Graphics? No. Skills? No.....I guess this leaves you thinking, what the hell does this game have that Illa doesn't? Community and friendly staff and players! We let them know that we had a failing server and they were almost desperate for us to stay.

For anyone that may have missed it, this is the point.

I think a lot of the suggestions posted here have been very positive. I am glad at least that there is a discussion under way. Thanks for that.