Open discussion about Slavery

Kurga Wolfbane · Post by **Kurga Wolfbane** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:01 am

Since I began trying to rebuild the Orc clan, I have had many inspirational ideas about how Orcs would or should act. What would their society be like? How have warrior races both in RL and fantasy acted?

One of the ideas "Slavery" is a controversial one, and I thought I would put it to you, the players to discuss.

Since prehistory, warrior races and clans would fight battles for land, resources or money. The winner not only carried away loot, but also took losers and survivors as prisoners. It occured to me that Illarion is the perfect setting for this. Why isn't there slavery? Is it because, as many have complained, we impose our 21st century morals and standards?

I thought about having the Orcs (a logical race to do this) begin allowing slaves, maybe just Goblins at first (They are a natural choice), but as time goes on, perhaps other races, captured in battle, or sold by their enemies, could also be enslaved, or at best indentured into servitude (Medeival Serfs).

As a character, the person would need to understand to RP a meek, servant of their master. They have been beaten in mind and spirit. Also that run'away' slaves would be punished harshly. The character should either be eager to serve and please their master, or be whipped, or worse, killed.

Also, players should put aside their 21st century morals, and not start 'Freeing slaves'. In this environment, where Slavery should be a logical and accepted practice, such notions wouldn't exist.

Question is, could players accept the conditions Slavery entails? How good RP'ers are we? Is this something the majority of players could cope with to add flavor and consequences to the game.

I would like to start a discussion about this. What do the players of Illa think?

Lrmy · Post by **Lrmy** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:08 am

I like the idea. I think there is to much 21st century morals and standards already in game. It would have to be alright with the player of the enslaved character's permission.

Wyrda · Post by **Wyrda** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:08 am

Honestly, if i were captured and enlsaved, i would play along. However, i do think that some could try to free slaves. Not everyone has always been for slaves until recently, i am sure some poeple opposed. Well ya like i said, i would do it and i like the idea

Ku 'Agor · Post by **Ku 'Agor** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:10 am

Good logical idea.

People would never play along.

A lot of people in this game play and have a special attitudes of dominance. I for one would not. I get claustrophobic in jails and delete characters that are jailed. It's just who I am - Sorry if I'm a bitch, GMs.

I might be able to.. but doubt it.. I'm a control freak.

Kurga Wolfbane · Post by **Kurga Wolfbane** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:11 am

Like player-death, it would have to be with consent of the player of course. No forced RP is a rule.

I just didn't want to start it if people would be shocked or against the idea.

BTW: this a 'slave' character would be perfect for someone who is 'meek' or even who just wants a second character to 'piddle' with. Slaves probably wouldn't do more than collect resources for their master anyways.

Lrmy · Post by **Lrmy** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:14 am

One of my characters caught a ...stumpie... and sold him to an elf that freed him once. Was about a year ago and no one had a problem with it.

Achae Eanstray · Post by **Achae Eanstray** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:15 am

I think if both players are for it, there should be no problem with it. Another interesting post about orcs also..... http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... ght=sirani

Kurga Wolfbane · Post by **Kurga Wolfbane** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:19 am

"The orcish female controls the male one by shouting at them ad hitting them with things. the average time a male needs to run away / break out is about three to five years. Others choose to stay longer for what reason ever. "

Haha!! Sounds like RL marraige!! Thanks for the topic Achae!

Gort Greegog · Post by **Gort Greegog** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:22 am

*hides*

Thorvald · Post by **Thorvald** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:28 am

http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... hp?t=17336

Since the tribes are quite poor, they tend to raid small villages or farms sometimes, if they don't have enough food for the next winter. Normally, orcs are not bloodthirsty, but when they fight with other races, their primary war tactics is to cause fear in their enemies. Captives who are too badly wounded to survive, are sometimes brutally killed after the battle, with the surviving captives witnessing it. Then, some of these captives, who show strength and a brave heart, will be given the possibility to escape, to spread the news and that way cause fear in the enemie's hearts. The others are sold as slaves or become personal servants, mostly peasants, cooks, or help the women with their work. If the slave is worthy and shows good work or strength, he is of strong blood, and may be given the choice to leave some day. Sometimes a slave marries a female orc, and becomes a member of the orc tribe that way, resulting in several half orcs.

So no, I don't think there's anything that speaks against it. Actually, quite the converse. I would look forward to such a thing.

Of course you have to expect resistance ingame. Maybe Gobaith isn't Salkamaeria, but it's not Albar either. That means it won't be easily accepted or ignored. You can't expect it either. Lady Meryadeles, Ascius, Eli, Gwendolin, Kane and many other are from Salkamaeria and would probably never accept that someone runs around with a slave. Not because of '21st century mortals', but because it's a part of the backgroundstory. But this will probably just cause more interesting RP.

So good luck

Mr. Cromwell · Post by **Mr. Cromwell** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:30 am

I'm cool with it, as long as you don't expect the slave-status to remain permanent. That would be muy sucky.

Kurga Wolfbane · Post by **Kurga Wolfbane** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:33 am

Good point Cromwell.

I'd have to think of some way either the slave would be freed after 'working off his servitude' or even sold to someone else. Perhaps the Salkmerians have a solution they have used?

I don't think players want permanent slavery, some might, but we would need a good 'escape' idea that is consistent with good RP and Orc society.

Any ideas?

I'd like this to be a compliment to the game, not a detriment.

Thorvald · Post by **Thorvald** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:36 am

Don't believe it's easy to force slavery upon an existing warrior character. Lets just take Edward for example. Until an orc would have broken his will, he would have been 'freed' thrice already from friends.

So... maybe it's less the point if you are able to break a characters will, but if you have enough *time* to do so...

Kurga Wolfbane · Post by **Kurga Wolfbane** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:44 am

Well, obviously, seasoned warriors wouldn't make good slaves anyways.

I was thinking more of lesser races, women and children. Anyone caught with a sword in hand during a battle would have been killed. So warriors wouldn't usually be salves.

Unless....

They are captured and trained as Gladiators.
Their masters would have to be exceptionally strong to control them though or have plenty of guards. It may be fun, but I see problems with it.

Better if slaves are meek.

The Returner · Post by **The Returner** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:01 am

Yay child slaves!

Ku 'Agor · Post by **Ku 'Agor** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:30 am

Aye, I call Ayra.

Ganon Harper · Post by **Ganon Harper** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:31 am

The Returner wrote:Yay child slaves!

*hides >.>

The Returner · Post by **The Returner** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:32 am

*enslaves*

Korm Kormsen · Post by **Korm Kormsen** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:05 am

i generally like the idea.

Why isn't there slavery? Is it because, as many have complained, we impose our 21st century morals and standards?

i think, it is a clear yes to the second question.

As a character, the person would need to understand to RP a meek, servant of their master. They have been beaten in mind and spirit. Also that run'away' slaves would be punished harshly. The character should either be eager to serve and please their master, or be whipped, or worse, killed.

i think, we don't have much players, who could enjoy playing a slave or serf.

Also, players should put aside their 21st century morals, and not start 'Freeing slaves'. In this environment, where Slavery should be a logical and accepted practice, such notions wouldn't exist.

most players won't be able, to do that.
it might be, that more players would go along to play a slave/serf for a foreseeable time, like mentioned above.

How good RP'ers are we? Is this something the majority of players could cope with to add flavor and consequences to the game.

just read all those bullshitty "me's".
most female chars are beautyfull or at least pretty.
most male chars look dangerous, mysterious and like the Marlboro-man.
most illa players want to play either the shining prince, or the mysterious evil uberchar.
or do you know a lot of ugly chars? just ugly, not dangerous?

i am afraid, slaves in illarion would be very probably in great danger to die by the "wipe-out-epedemy".

Lrmy · Post by **Lrmy** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:08 am

Mr. negative is not speaking for everyone..

I would LOVE to play a slave. It would be quite enjoyable role play.

Athian · Post by **Athian** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:16 am

several characters are already played as such or formerly as such, of course they aren't very well known characters, because that would require them to speak about there backgrounds.

So yes these roles are already being played in various incarnations. even got one myself. must say it is rather fun.

Salathe · Post by **Salathe** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:01 am

salathe was born a slave

Ganon Harper · Post by **Ganon Harper** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:14 am

Lrmy wrote:Mr. negative is not speaking for everyone..

I would LOVE to play a slave. It would be quite enjoyable role play.

I actually think I would also.

Kurga Wolfbane · Post by **Kurga Wolfbane** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:14 am

I am glad to hear all the support for the idea.

@Korm: Kurga is often described as "Ugly, even for an Orc" I play an Ugly character, and even slur and distort her speech to reflect low intelligence even in Orcish. Something I am sure many Characters have, but fail to RP it, like he who must not be named - ((Stephen Rothman))

Proposed Slave system:
Anyways, how about a system such as Slaves have a 'value' like property, like 100 silvers - the value noted on Guild boards just like Houses and other property. Talented slaves would be worth more, judged by the 'leader' of the society, but no more than One RL year worth to pay off. Even then it is a long time, but possible.

The slave would be 'obligated' to earn their own freedom through work and chores, but treated as the Master wishes, either like dirt and beaten or a dutiful, cherished 'house' slave. The pay would have to be set, like 100 silvers worth forgiven an IG year or something. A newbie slave would be free in 1 years ((3 RL months, which I believe is very reasonable)) unless granted freedom or sold to another. The longer a slave is a slave, the less they are worth basically, until they are worth nothing and freed. It's the Master's responsibility to direct, care, control and RP with the slave.

Slaves would be obtained either directly from the mainland (Slave characters already) or in a formal RP-directed Battle between more than 10 people, with consent of the survivors of the losing side. Any other way would cause problems, when strong warrior bandits start abducting characters and selling them into slavery. Although interesting RP, we shouldn't go there. It could be abused. Do that stuff with GM approval.

What do you all think? I would like to hear from a GM about this idea too.

Pellandria · Post by **Pellandria** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:22 am

I love this idea and actually always wanted to play a slave , or atleast some kind of controlled char, just to test out the will my char has and so on, really looking forward for this, put all the moralists to the side..long live slavery *cough*

Cliu Beothach · Post by **Cliu Beothach** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:26 am

My chamber pot is full, go clean it out.

Ku 'Agor · Post by **Ku 'Agor** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:02 am

Aye, you have my mental gears working.

xBaurusx · Post by **xBaurusx** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:10 am

Let there be slaves

Lianis · Post by **Lianis** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 5:56 am

As Athian posted, there is already slavery in game, it is just handled very quietly, because of the general reaction to it (though for the most part up until now, the 'claiming' has been completely voluntary on the part of the slaves). I know of at least six characters who are slaves to another character, and at least two masters - there are probably more still; I also know of at least three pairs that 'play' at slave/master at times.

Personally, I'm all for it, as it is very appropriate for the time period. However, this is something that would have to be completely voluntary on the player's part, talked about ahead of time. (I don't care if it is completely against the will of the character, but the player has to be alright with it, as some wouldn't be, such as Ku'agor.) If it is forced, not on the character but on the player, I would consider that a violation of the force-RP rule and see that it was dealt with accordingly.

Kiilii Zaltana · Post by **Kiilii Zaltana** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:23 am

The orcish female controls the male one by shouting at them ad hitting them with things.

http://klingonlove.ytmnd.com/

^^Be sure to turn down the volume a bit...

^^