Good/Evil/All Between

Mr. Cromwell · Post by **Mr. Cromwell** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 1:47 pm

Actually, I think it is evil to do things that the character knows to cause bad things to others. Even if that is for reaching a goal.

Aristeaus · Post by **Aristeaus** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 1:49 pm

I would say no, ill use your character as an example, he would do bad things to achieve his goals, yet on the other hand he would risk his life to save Aleytys i assume?

Mr. Cromwell · Post by **Mr. Cromwell** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 1:56 pm

Yep. But one exception doesn't make Edward a good man. One doesn't have to be 100% rotten and jaded to be evil.

Disregarding the effects of one's own actions is a prime factor in defining actual evilness. Just doing evil for the sake of evil is.. Simply unstable.

Alytys Lamar · Post by **Alytys Lamar** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 1:57 pm

He would, sure. Like Aleytys aswell would do this. Both are Char's in a grey zone i think, united bad, coldness and good things. Always playing own games.. its evil, but not the evilness the thread means I think.

Aristeaus · Post by **Aristeaus** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 1:59 pm

Hehe, im sure you understand what i say though old friend, i would personally class Edward as Neautral bastard * cough * i mean Neautral evil. As he is circumstancial bad. The same could be said for characters like Aleytys, she like to be a cold biach, but she is a softy underneath. Net example you have Meriel, who sole purpose in life is to be a bitchy witch queen from hell, but who also hides a softy side which she wants to be nurtured. All these types of character i class as neautral ;] not evil. But thats me, just an opinion.

Edit : What Dorris said

Mr. Cromwell · Post by **Mr. Cromwell** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 2:02 pm

Well, even evil characters may have desires or emotions. It's just that their "good" emotions are focused on a much smaller group of people than usual.

But I understand your point, old boy.

Samantha Meryadeles · Post by **Samantha Meryadeles** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 2:14 pm

Evil chars = Those chars who enjoy hurting and harming others. Those chars who praise Moshran, raise demons and undeads, and live an unholy life compared to "normal" peoples. Evil means the lack of mercy, friendlyness and conscience. Someone who kills without any regret, someone who doesnt lose a thought about the bad things he done. Someone who wishes the bad and the terrible for others and the world at all, and feels warm and fuzzy by that thought.

Avalyon is evil. He sells himself to Moshran, summons a demon and bounds the members soul and mind to the temple, making them slaves to it.
Galthran is evil. He has no mercy, he kills for greed and he doesnt regret when sliding someones throat. He wishes to follow the path of darkness and praise aswell Moshran and the "dark side".
Dain Laiden is evil aswell. Killing innocents without much reason, attacking others without feeling mercy or regret, betraying his friends and his knighthood, and joining a group that means evil.
Darlok is evil. Working for Moshran and powerfull lichs, helping them to steal peoples souls and lifenergy, blackmailing the isle without mercy, summoning undeads and demons, whorshipping moshran, kidnapping young woman and doing dark rituals with them. Having no regret, no conscience, just the wish for more power and more might, even if that means to go over corpses.

And so on.

Manny Noon is no evil. Sure, he does crimes, but he has some form of honor and conscience. He is no mindless killer, and he doesnt would rob anyone.
Johnny Lant is no evil. Sure, he is a pain in the ass, but he is not evil, more likely just bad educated and he needs some beating up what he missed in his earlier days.
Stephen Rothman was no evil. He simply was a fool who did anything for his powerhungry greed. But most time over he tried to do the good thing, even if just he thoughts what he is doing means good.

Just examples.

Athian · Post by **Athian** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 4:14 pm

Aegohl wrote:I hear moans from players saying Aristeaus made a pin cushion out of Darlok and moans from the other side that there really isn't any sort of organized rebellion against what is becoming an organized threat, the first side coming back with saying that neither side is really all organized at all.

just want to clear up this point. it's not that plenty of people dont' want to do something, it's that for the most part the people that usually are the most motivated are annoyed by the fact, that Darlok a player character, while acting in a GM role at the time, built virtually an entire city, made it virtually impregnable (not getting in without caster of some sort), and then did some round about rp so that in the end his own character end up in possession of the entire area.

sure we had fun with the bits of quest we've done so far, but how can Darlok act as both a player character and yet accomdate himself with whatever he needs/wants at the time. next thing we know player character Darlok will be giving himself the power to summon hordes of undead, and the power to use 'mysterious forces' to keep characters out of 'his' areas or whom knows what. its got nothing to do with evil player characters so much, but exactly to what extent should characters like Darlok recieve self GM support? it'd be different if it were like the evil town at the end of Greenbriar. but a fortress that can't even fully be navigated by players, is the same as giving any other player there own secret GM location.

Rasteel Olin · Post by **Rasteel Olin** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 4:24 pm

Rasteel Olin wrote:like Johnny Lant, he's not really evil, just a bad temper).

Samantha Meryadeles wrote:Johnny Lant is no evil. Sure, he is a pain in the ass, but he is not evil, more likely just bad educated and he needs some beating up what he missed in his earlier days.

Exactly Patric.
And I'm flattered you mentioned one of my chars

Yeah, the way Johnny is played right now isn't evil, just, bad temper, and over-emotional about his parents.

But really, evil, it's sinister.. It's.. someone who has the pleasure of causing bad to others. Whether they're his family, friends, strangers or enemies.. When he sees someone in agony, when he sees someone unhappy, he is unhappy. (Or she, of course

)
And the 'smart' kind of evil, can control his urges to cause pain, and target his victims depending on how much risk there is and how much he would gain of his act.
Risk/Gain ; -/+ = he does it. ; +/- = He forgets about it.

Fooser · Post by **Fooser** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 4:34 pm

Having evil take and hold towns is crap, because they would most likely need mass pushing to do that

Mr. Cromwell · Post by **Mr. Cromwell** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 4:37 pm

Fooser wrote:Having evil take and hold towns is crap, because they would most likely need mass pushing to do that

Or just not to have good people to be suicidical maniacs..

Indifference is good too.

Nalzaxx · Post by **Nalzaxx** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 4:57 pm

Nalzaxx wasn't evil.

But of course very few of you got to know him well enough to realise that.

Samantha Meryadeles · Post by **Samantha Meryadeles** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 5:39 pm

What? Nalzaxx was a walking skeleton leading a town for any possible criminal and unholy creatures. a man who sold his soul to moshran. A man doing dark and unholy rituals, like reviving one of the worst enemys the isle ever had. he WAS evil. and if you really belief he wasnt, than you should never again play such a char, sorry, since you simply havent understood your own role you played.

it is simply very bad roleplay to have such a char, do what he has done, be what he was, and than say "he was not evil"

AlexRose · Post by **AlexRose** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 5:53 pm

Aristeaus wrote:A lich is evil etc.

A bandit is more neautral..

Well retlak isnt evil, but i think he is meant to be a joke, no offence Ret.

And i disagree to silas, thats more.. neautral evil etc. By evil i class, mm hard to exaplin.

Silas isnt evil, just selfish

Nah Silas isn't evil, just arrogant.

Even though William ressurected Aokan and stood by him as he pwnt, I don't think you'd find any who would call William evil. I wouldn't call Silas evil, I'd just call him... I dunno... cool?

Nalzaxx · Post by **Nalzaxx** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 6:10 pm

Samantha Meryadeles wrote:What? Nalzaxx was a walking skeleton leading a town for any possible criminal and unholy creatures. a man who sold his soul to moshran. A man doing dark and unholy rituals, like reviving one of the worst enemys the isle ever had. he WAS evil. and if you really belief he wasnt, than you should never again play such a char, sorry, since you simply havent understood your own role you played.

it is simply very bad roleplay to have such a char, do what he has done, be what he was, and than say "he was not evil"

I think, I am more of an authority on my own character than you.

Nalzaxx never sold his soul to anyone.

And if you are too arrogant to realise that then you should keep quiet.

One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. You know, despite what you think, nothing of Nalzaxx nor his motives.

Skaalib Drurr · Post by **Skaalib Drurr** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 6:11 pm

Evil is all good and fine in my opinion. If a group of players were to be made and come and take the town of trollsbane and keep it, and beat good characters, I would have no problem whatsoever, and those player characters shouldn't need to be perma-killed.
What I object to is that evil characters seem to get gm help, much more so than good characters, and when the player gets pushed, or even gets special items and the like, in my opinion he becomes a quest char, and quests have to come to an end, which means that soon enough they should be permakilled.
And I also dislike the almost constant evil presence on the isle. As soon as one evil is defeated another pops up. Perhaps people think it makes better rp or something, but rp can be just as good if it is so called 'campfire' rp, without the threat of invasion and/or death looming.
And also perhaps evil should be a little more secretive, right now everybody knows basically everything about each evil, for OOC reasons, and people put up guild papers for evil guilds! So maybe evil should be kept a little quieter, both OOC and IG.

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 6:14 pm

Here's how i understand it (mostly inspired from DnD)

Good: When you put the well being of others before yourself, you fight to protect people you don't know, and you love your enemies. A person who fights to protect 'Trollsbane' (people he doesn't know) would be good. A person who is ready to die fighting for a god which promotes love would be good.

Zhambra is a good idea of a symbol of good.

Neutral: These are normal people. They love their friends and are ready to risk their lives for them, and they hate their enemies, and are ready to risk their lives to see enemies hurt a bit.

Evil: When you put the suffering of others before yourself, you fight to hurt people you don't know, and watch them suffer. Your friends are evil, or are being used in order to spread it. A person who attacks a town just to murder people to please Moshran is evil.

-

There, lyke it?

Bumbol Woodstock · Post by **Bumbol Woodstock** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 6:51 pm

Samantha Meryadeles wrote:What? Nalzaxx was a walking skeleton leading a town for any possible criminal and unholy creatures. a man who sold his soul to moshran. A man doing dark and unholy rituals, like reviving one of the worst enemys the isle ever had. he WAS evil. and if you really belief he wasnt, than you should never again play such a char, sorry, since you simply havent understood your own role you played.

it is simply very bad roleplay to have such a char, do what he has done, be what he was, and than say "he was not evil"

your such a pathetic cheese eating rodent.

Kevin Lightdot · Post by **Kevin Lightdot** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 6:55 pm

Patric: You don't know everyones character, there are lots of things left unrped, or believe it or not, unshared with you.

That's all I wanna say >.>

Bumbol Woodstock · Post by **Bumbol Woodstock** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 6:57 pm

you also repeat every statement you make in EVERY post of yours at least twice sometimes up to five times. For ***** -Arien- patric stop being so redundent.

Nalzaxx · Post by **Nalzaxx** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 6:58 pm

As much as Patric deserves it at times. I think we can manage to remain civil to him.

Lance Thunnigan · Post by **Lance Thunnigan** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 7:08 pm

Fooser wrote:Galthran and Co.? Lasted like 2 days didnt it?

Fooser was evil too

I helped in that one as well.

Damien · Post by **Damien** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 7:08 pm

It's just the community, it's overall roleplaying understanding dropped massively. Old day minimal rules don't work anymore because people abuse things whenever they can, and the game became more and more a subject of winning or loosing than RP.
Anyhow i've been looking for another game worth playing since quite a while but didn't really find one which is as good as illarion once was, concerning the atmosphere. But you won't find that in ages, that's why i'm still here.

Tinuva Geogroda · Post by **Tinuva Geogroda** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 7:25 pm

I think evil is reaching a goal, like getting a mighty thing orso or getting a city, to get mighty, to can rule everyone. Neutral are indeed like alot already said: Thiefs etc., Good people are the people that fight the evil and want to have it good for everyone, or just the economy.

I know this maybe said about 1000 times already, but I guess this is the shortest version so far.

Fooser · Post by **Fooser** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 7:28 pm

Liches are evil by definition, I don't even see how it is possible to have one that isn't. When we were all in jail for that extended period, all the people in the temple seemed pretty evil to me.

Korm Kormsen · Post by **Korm Kormsen** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 7:33 pm

the most common stance seems to be:

good = what i do
bad = the rest of the world
evil = everything what disturbs my plans

Lrmy · Post by **Lrmy** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 7:36 pm

What exactly are people fighting about here? Darlok has a castle, yes. Other people helped him with the project that no longer play. So it was not just him. He has a town no one can get in, yes.. Silverbrand, the gray rose, and the temple are all like this. So complain about one you complain about them all. It is absurd to argue over what is "evil" that is a very perceptive subject. Like Nalzaxx said,

One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter.

There are currently no attacks by non-gms being made on town. And by most of the definitions of "evil" I have read here, I have not met one accual evil character in Illarion.

And Patric, I noticed Samantha has the same views of evil as you do. Though according to our background on the gods...

His followers are few, evil beings.

Moshran has evil followers. The word evil should be removed there.

It also seems people fail to realize they can't make logic claims about good/evil acts by players. It seems like most people write their views witch come from religion in OUR world. The Illarion world has other gods therefor they have other beliefs and meanings of right and wrong. Other meanings of good and evil. Other meanings of life and death. Try and be open to the fact Illarion is so far from the world we live in. I know it is hard to separate them sometimes.

Skaalib Drurr · Post by **Skaalib Drurr** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 7:39 pm

Fooser wrote:Liches are evil by definition, I don't even see how it is possible to have one that isn't. When we were all in jail for that extended period, all the people in the temple seemed pretty evil to me.

Indeed, it was a pretty damn long period, and actually reduced rp for the most part, except for the initial capture and the final ritual (which I couldn't even make), because it was mostly just you in the cell by yourself.
And really, the characters there couldnt be reacted with also, because we couldnt see each other, only shout through walls, so there wasnt a chance to react with Nalzaxx and Retlak to any large degree.

Misjbar · Post by **Misjbar** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 7:43 pm

since you simply havent understood your own role you played.

Oh...My...God.

This is like, the ultimate form of unrighteously judging other people's roleplay. Mister Patric, user of difficult, archaeic english words while not understanding basic english grammar and word-usage, I don't think you should ever do that again. You should not judge other people's roles. Next thing you'd do might be saying that Misjbar is pure evil, with not a good thing in his heart. And if I say he isn't, well then, I might not know his role yet myself, like, the player of Misjbar, the one whom knows and dictates what goes on in his mind.

Get a life.

Retlak · Post by **Retlak** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 7:47 pm

I would like to stick my nose in here! A lich, is not evil/!

nonono, a lich is someoe who just explores the nature odf undead or something like that.

Its clearly defined in many siturations (amd games alike) that a lich is neutral, Which is why you may tihnk Retlak is a joke (no offence taken Arist). Thats how i want him played now, not some pking necromancer who kills anyone on site, but someone to add a hint of trouble to the atmoshpere. (Trouble being, anything unusual i guess).

So yeah, i do not give a shit what you say,Leyts make this lich a fun one. Whatever.

also! this game aloows people to play as they want, so why is there even discussion on evil vs good? just have fun kiddies! Bleh i dunno.