Good/Evil/All Between

[Lrmy]

I think that since the community was having a conversation that was productive and with little flaming it should have at least be made into a new topic and not locked...

Here is the last few posts...

Hadrian_Abela:

Suggestion:

5 minutes of fame

Illarion is a RP game.

If a character is attacked/destroyed during a VERY important event (something that everyone will know about such as a siege, or a quest, or an ambush or something), that person MUST step down of his position OR kill his character, or at least RP as very badly weakened.

Personally, i'd just kill him, to give him a good ending, but thats just me.

Added: Example of how this works.

-

Char A is the leader of the town of BCD.
Char B decides he wants to take the town.

Player B notifies player A ooc, to prepare for a battle, and one day, an army of char A and char B, fight for the town.

During the battle, char A gets killed.

Now, char A should admit defeat, appriciate that Char B is stronger; step down and give the town to B.

He will not try another attack or anythign unless there is a big change, and the shame of the defeat stays on with him....

--------------------

Fooser:

The reason why "evil" has a hard time is just common sense. The game world is in general a majority of decent people. And any decent, sane person would not allow a lot of this stuff to happen. You don't just let evil walk in and set up shop, you fight it wherever it is. Interact with them? For most people on the island, defeating it IS the most logical way to interact. Long lasting evil doesn't work either. That would involve characters/players going off and isolating themselves from everyone else for long lengths of time. Generally that turns into them coming into town everyday pestering. It's at that point where the pre-mentioned PKing them out needs to occur because they insist on coming in all the time (out of boredom perhaps). Another thing to consider is how having a dominant evil would effect the game itself. Although good and innovative, I felt bad for anyone who happened to have joined Illa during the lich wars, when the town wasn't in our control, etc. It can hamper many aspects of what goes on.

Samantha Meryadeles:

I agree with Fooser

To read more, here is the link http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... &start=120

I would just like to say that "evil" characters have never accually wone in the long run, witch you all know. Would you all like it if there were no evil characters? I think conflict is one thing that makes the game fun and worth playing. Conflict in Illarion, normally comes from "Good" Vs. the good guys perception of "Evil". I remember the last attack on the town from Retlak I played a character who was on Retlak's side. I had to cloud this one guy 3 times along with clouding another two guys. We had a force of a decent mage, a necromancer, and 6 warriors. We could not do anything up against Samantha and Gerron, along with the other 10 people that helped them and kept coming from the cross. The point of mentioning that last battle was to show that evil guys can't win though they still try and play.

In short..
Why can't evil last? Why can't evil characters fight off and on with the good ones? Does it matter that much that you get another role play element?

[Cliu Beothach]

Until or if the game finally ever ends, then there never IS a winner. These arguments have been going on for a long long time, and you know what? They never change. The "evil" chars always say: its hard to be evil, it wouldn't be fun without evil, evil never really wins.

The Good side always has the frustation card amoung other things. The point is, who cares? Its a roleplaying game. It isn't about winning or losing, or not getting your way. Thats what it boils down to. Its fun to have conflicts and drama. Its fun to be the winner or even have a chance to be one, but just as the game portrays a battle of good versus evil, so will the community.

Lets all just suck it up and play. Sure, the evil side should have their day and so should the good. When the game isn't going your way, just roll with it instead of complaining. Who cares if a GM aided one group, or if the other has so many forces. You get the short end of the stick, fine.

This has been argued so many times with so many other topics and it seems instead of growing as a community we just cycle. Good to evil, knights to mages, dark to light, "deep" to shallow. The circle is just beginning again.

[Asesino]

Until or if the game finally ever ends, then there never IS a winner. These arguments have been going on for a long long time, and you know what? They never change. The "evil" chars always say: its hard to be evil, it wouldn't be fun without evil, evil never really wins.

The Good side always has the frustation card amoung other things. The point is, who cares? Its a roleplaying game. It isn't about winning or losing, or not getting your way. Thats what it boils down to. Its fun to have conflicts and drama. Its fun to be the winner or even have a chance to be one, but just as the game portrays a battle of good versus evil, so will the community.

Lets all just suck it up and play. Sure, the evil side should have their day and so should the good. When the game isn't going your way, just roll with it instead of complaining. Who cares if a GM aided one group, or if the other has so many forces. You get the short end of the stick, fine.

This has been argued so many times with so many other topics and it seems instead of growing as a community we just cycle. Good to evil, knights to mages, dark to light, "deep" to shallow. The circle is just beginning again.

thanks! I think that brought almost everything to the point.

[Lrmy]

Until or if the game finally ever ends, then there never IS a winner. These arguments have been going on for a long long time, and you know what? They never change. The "evil" chars always say: its hard to be evil, it wouldn't be fun without evil, evil never really wins.

The Good side always has the frustation card amoung other things. The point is, who cares? Its a roleplaying game. It isn't about winning or losing, or not getting your way. Thats what it boils down to. Its fun to have conflicts and drama. Its fun to be the winner or even have a chance to be one, but just as the game portrays a battle of good versus evil, so will the community.

Lets all just suck it up and play. Sure, the evil side should have their day and so should the good. When the game isn't going your way, just roll with it instead of complaining. Who cares if a GM aided one group, or if the other has so many forces. You get the short end of the stick, fine.

This has been argued so many times with so many other topics and it seems instead of growing as a community we just cycle. Good to evil, knights to mages, dark to light, "deep" to shallow. The circle is just beginning again.

0.o yes, good points.

[Dantagon Marescot]

Personally I would find it amusing if for once the 'bad guy' really did take the town of Trolls Bane. For once, we have to retreat. We have to hide from them for a change instead of the other way around. Sure none of you will want that, but it would be a change of pace. The good guys do not always have to win.

Fooser made a point about people who are new who joined during the Lich War. Well... If the evil dudes hold the town, we should have an agreement down for what to do with newbies. Don't cloud just anyone in town you don't know, rp with them, if you find they are a noob, treat them as such and pretend they are new to the isle and must submit to their rule or leave (eventually, they are noobs remember, takes a while to get to know what is going on).

Okay, last thing for me. Patric mentioned the need for a fresh evil character. I have to agree, Darlok is getting old, and I have only met him once ingame, but I know he is one of the original evils. Maybe he is grooming someone else to take his place. Darlok falls, someone slips into the shadows, waiting, biding his time. Then he makes his move at the right time, and boom, new evil, new player, new ideas. Something to keep the game fresh. You don't even need an evil player who is always ploting to take over the place either. He could just be doing evil things, still evil, just not insane like the rest of them.

[Azuros]

Personally I would find it amusing if for once the 'bad guy' really did take the town of Trolls Bane. For once, we have to retreat. We have to hide from them for a change instead of the other way around. Sure none of you will want that, but it would be a change of pace. The good guys do not always have to win.

Fooser made a point about people who are new who joined during the Lich War. Well... If the evil dudes hold the town, we should have an agreement down for what to do with newbies. Don't cloud just anyone in town you don't know, rp with them, if you find they are a noob, treat them as such and pretend they are new to the isle and must submit to their rule or leave (eventually, they are noobs remember, takes a while to get to know what is going on).

Okay, last thing for me. Patric mentioned the need for a fresh evil character. I have to agree, Darlok is getting old, and I have only met him once ingame, but I know he is one of the original evils. Maybe he is grooming someone else to take his place. Darlok falls, someone slips into the shadows, waiting, biding his time. Then he makes his move at the right time, and boom, new evil, new player, new ideas. Something to keep the game fresh. You don't even need an evil player who is always ploting to take over the place either. He could just be doing evil things, still evil, just not insane like the rest of them.

I believe we had a bandit king as the ruler over Trollsbane once...It did not go so badly in my opinion, I forget what happened though

[Fooser]

Galthran and Co.? Lasted like 2 days didnt it?


Fooser was evil too

[Cliu Beothach]

Indeed.
Gerard was located in the center of town and caused terror.
The overgrowth sent people to evacuate
Darlok would send people running
The Cult would raid the town
The whole Movement would...annoy the guards.

Those and a lot more events would trouble trollsbane, and for a moment, give the bad guys the winning sense the good get.

[Gro'bul]

Darlok ruled over a town too, he's consider a all time evil person. He didn't randomly pk people, he attracted them with power, relationships, promises. Now ultimately it didn't work out perfectly for him, but he built his own city and had many citizens and people to back it up, at least at the start. He killed Elaralith too, a smart move. Gotta love those full armor double knight shield mages of olde.

Much of evil stuff of late is "evil kill good, good kill evil", you gotta have goals people can rally around if you want to live on as a evil person, other than just killing people.

[Pendar]

Yes I am alive, no I am not coming back and my opinions here may be horrible skewed as I have only read some OOC topics.
How ever my experience of Illarion was as follows, “And as I have subsequently posted if my parting implied any animosity . It has long ceased and I look back on my time with Illarion with a smile”
When I started playing it was with Characters like John Irenicus, Durin Goldtooth, Lennier and Garret Gwenour and so many other awesome players. Yes we use to get riled up about evil characters, reskilling even happened on occasion. Yet the over whelming atmosphere in game was one where evil was not only not permitted, but potentially punishable. The old bloodskulls were awesome to rp with and as adversaries and friends Gurik,Grunith,Gorge and Wiergraff etc but those characters would often end up in jail for long times. Trollsbane still burnt necromancers and jail time was not a point to oocly whine about, more often than not a battle to break a character out of jail would ensue anyway.
The new map came and many old players stopped playing but more than that the game world had changed, it was no longer a little clique of rpers the game was growing and advancing the skill grind and cap came into affect. One could no longer build a character up in a few days and with that it seemed to become more competitive. More over it felt as if characters more and more wished to play in a game with out the boundaries of law, role-playing fear of punishment or pain slowly ceased, and any jail time was either walked out on or bitched about.
I truly became sick of a game world where criminals would just walk into town, killing some one meant nothing and if you found a way to jail some one or ban them from town. They would lie or moan via msn or pm to such a point as to make jailing/banning a real life chore.
This lack of respect or ability to rp respect law at any level seems to have only escalated and at base, no one is ever moaning there is evil or good. They are moaning in Illarion conflict has no resolution. This game has an on average younger player base, the concept of honor and honesty is pretty alien in today’s world anyway and usually only adopted by adept role players at best of times. More over people will always become over involved in a game, as such not wish there character to die, languish in jail, know fear or be banned.

My point is a serious role playing environment can only be achieved with mechanical consequences. I also imagine if Illarion long term wishes to hold the interest of more advanced players, such being the type of players who tend to shape and forge the game world. Then a serious environment needs to be nurtured other wise its simply a slow spiral to a role-play encouraged game or a game with role-play in some areas and pvp in others.
There are a lot of mechanics that can be put in place to foster a system that allows players power and makes laws feared.
Five deaths from players and that character is locked for 2 weeks?
Systems were by dieing X amount of times with in X times causes a fatal or final death.
Or a command that lets you –banish- a cloud to the nether world for 48 hours.
Basically you can use any system to put some fear into dieing or being executed…
With that suddenly good and evil can really battle, wars can be waged and decided and ctrl clicking would have a real risk.
Also no one could moan evil does X or good does Y, be smart and kill them.
Sure people will say but I don’t want to lose my character all my skills and hard work but at core Illarion needs to decide if it’s a more cerebral runescape or role-playing game. In a role playing world, you care about the world before the character. So if you die, you make a new character content in the knowledge you new character is born into a better virtual world.
Any system that allows conflict encourages skills and as such competitiveness needs a system to settle disputes, clearly losing armor and going to the cross solves nothing.

With a system that rewarded alliances, rewarded assassinations and made death matter strong leaders could shine, good or evil could be removed and the game world would truly be moldable by the players who inhabit it.
Basically if I could have dealt with criminals or enemies and actually achieved something I may have stayed around, in a game world were there was some fear and some reason to respect anything.

Also evil guys you don’t have to kill people to be evil, my villain did a lot of damage and most people liked Maliss. You really don’t have to be like what ever that ridiculous idiot was who was murdering people and hiding in the forest with no skills apparently abusing a seer’s acct lol.

Lastly great to see the player count up the game world strong the new client is pretty awesome when I used it. Fact the game is no longer for me is immaterial for a built from base project this rocks. You guys need to come together more as a community and decide what you want from Illarion not what spell affect or new feature. What you really want your world to be, so the staff can facilitate that.
Thanks for great memories
Brian

P.s Those who know what I am doing now, don’t pipe up with yes he now plays a far more awesome game or something equally silly. Frankly seeing other rp places pumped on illarion is rude and I would never wish it done in my name.

[Aegohl]

Risking being entirely covered in the shadows of a huge Pendar post, I don't think it's an issue of good and evil right now--what I see is that there are two types of rp going on in the North and each is ignoring the other to their own benefit.

I hear moans from players saying Aristeaus made a pin cushion out of Darlok and moans from the other side that there really isn't any sort of organized rebellion against what is becoming an organized threat, the first side coming back with saying that neither side is really all organized at all.

If there ever was more of a classic situation for the GM's to get involved with in deciding once and for all what is actually happening in the North, I don't know of one. In pen and paper games, that's the only thing GM's do, is decide on the reality of things that aren't covered by the system.

To the credit of the staff (you heard it, Thor. I said "credit" and "staff" at the same time!) it's not an easy decision to make, and one party or the other is going to bitch about the outcome.

On the other hand, one side of the Northerot/Varshikar equation has the staff's fingerprints all over it.

[Korm Kormsen]

apart from what aeghol writes (i think he writes about a result from a problem, not about the problem itself) in this thread i read some really interesting things.

they make me think, that, in short, we need that actions of a char should have consequences.
we don't need "coming round the bend again" eternal heroes, that live for ever. (players tend to identificate too much with such "pet-chars")
we need permanent players, with changing chars.

we need that actions of a char, that get it killed (or killed repeatedly) should have permanent consequences.

my two coppers

korm

[AlexRose]

I've got 1 minute to write this post so it's gonna be quick, I'll do an essay post when I get home.

Evil chars get killed. They get a bit of fun, a taste of power; but eventually they WILL be perma killed or in my opinion it's just BS.

And Avalyon; stop with the "Good chars should be perma killed too", just because you play the new leader of the occulte and don't want Avalyon to die. Good characters don't hinder Gobaith, they don't take skeleton armies and overthrow towns, they don't do terrible deeds that have a permenant impact on Gobaith. If you create an evil char, you risk being perma killed. Just because you play an evil char shouldn't mean good chars should also end up being perma killed, because that's stupid.

[Dantagon Marescot]

Nothing wrong with good characters being perma killed. In fact it should happen every so often so good suffers a loss as well. It is more likely that an evil character will be perma killed, but there is no reason that a good guy can't die too. As said, good guys should suffer a loss every so often as well.

Not everyone needs to have a hero chracter either. It's an rp game to us, it's real life to our characters. They should have real fears, real feelings, real problems. They shouldn't be perfect. Some should flee and hide when trouble comes. When someone ushers them into the tavern because of an attack in town, they shouldn't shrug it off and go ahead and start wandering outside. Some should shake as they walk onto the battle field, they chose to come, but fear for their life, maybe even run when the going gets tough. Some should stand steady and firm. Few should play the hero.

Maybe there needs to be more realism in the game. We can't kill our characters every time they get clouded, but we can give them injuries from the encounter. We can give them fears and the want to never have that happen again. None of us are perfect, none of us can perfectly rp our characters all the time. So why should our characters be perfect? It is that diversity and realism that makes the game more fun. It isn't just a game, it's life.

[Avalyon el'Hattarr]

Perhaps your problems stem from the fact that you think you are supposed to beat the evil side.

This is not some single player RPG where you play the hero who goes on the quest to destroy the evil lich.

It is infact a multiplayer game. The evil players arn't there for YOUR entertainment and to feed your ego by being defeated. They are there to play the game.

Its not about defeating them, its about interacting with them. If anyone had bothered to interact with Nalzaxx beyond "OMG Lich L3ts pwnzor" they would have realised he WAS a different kind of evil.

Instead you decide to bring it here because the evil players are not conforming to what you think they should do. They are not there to be destroyed by you. They keep coming back when you kill them just as you keep coming back when we kill you.

Why is it when an evil player kills a good player he can come back after awhile and continue without incident. But if a good player kills an evil one it is expected to be a perma kill and is "bad rp" if the evil player comes back just as the good player did?

There is the false impression in many of the players that evil only exists to be defeated. This attitude needs to change. They are not here to be defeated, this is a multiplayer game, they are here to be interacted with

Nothing more to say.

[Korm Kormsen]

Dantagon,

Yes.

[Ereaes]

Yes I am alive, no I am not coming back and my opinions here may be horrible skewed as I have only read some OOC topics.
How ever my experience of Illarion was as follows, “And as I have subsequently posted if my parting implied any animosity . It has long ceased and I look back on my time with Illarion with a smile”
When I started playing it was with Characters like John Irenicus, Durin Goldtooth, Lennier and Garret Gwenour and so many other awesome players. Yes we use to get riled up about evil characters, reskilling even happened on occasion. Yet the over whelming atmosphere in game was one where evil was not only not permitted, but potentially punishable. The old bloodskulls were awesome to rp with and as adversaries and friends Gurik,Grunith,Gorge and Wiergraff etc but those characters would often end up in jail for long times. Trollsbane still burnt necromancers and jail time was not a point to oocly whine about, more often than not a battle to break a character out of jail would ensue anyway.
The new map came and many old players stopped playing but more than that the game world had changed, it was no longer a little clique of rpers the game was growing and advancing the skill grind and cap came into affect. One could no longer build a character up in a few days and with that it seemed to become more competitive. More over it felt as if characters more and more wished to play in a game with out the boundaries of law, role-playing fear of punishment or pain slowly ceased, and any jail time was either walked out on or bitched about.
I truly became sick of a game world where criminals would just walk into town, killing some one meant nothing and if you found a way to jail some one or ban them from town. They would lie or moan via msn or pm to such a point as to make jailing/banning a real life chore.
This lack of respect or ability to rp respect law at any level seems to have only escalated and at base, no one is ever moaning there is evil or good. They are moaning in Illarion conflict has no resolution. This game has an on average younger player base, the concept of honor and honesty is pretty alien in today’s world anyway and usually only adopted by adept role players at best of times. More over people will always become over involved in a game, as such not wish there character to die, languish in jail, know fear or be banned.

My point is a serious role playing environment can only be achieved with mechanical consequences. I also imagine if Illarion long term wishes to hold the interest of more advanced players, such being the type of players who tend to shape and forge the game world. Then a serious environment needs to be nurtured other wise its simply a slow spiral to a role-play encouraged game or a game with role-play in some areas and pvp in others.
There are a lot of mechanics that can be put in place to foster a system that allows players power and makes laws feared.
Five deaths from players and that character is locked for 2 weeks?
Systems were by dieing X amount of times with in X times causes a fatal or final death.
Or a command that lets you –banish- a cloud to the nether world for 48 hours.
Basically you can use any system to put some fear into dieing or being executed…
With that suddenly good and evil can really battle, wars can be waged and decided and ctrl clicking would have a real risk.
Also no one could moan evil does X or good does Y, be smart and kill them.
Sure people will say but I don’t want to lose my character all my skills and hard work but at core Illarion needs to decide if it’s a more cerebral runescape or role-playing game. In a role playing world, you care about the world before the character. So if you die, you make a new character content in the knowledge you new character is born into a better virtual world.
Any system that allows conflict encourages skills and as such competitiveness needs a system to settle disputes, clearly losing armor and going to the cross solves nothing.

With a system that rewarded alliances, rewarded assassinations and made death matter strong leaders could shine, good or evil could be removed and the game world would truly be moldable by the players who inhabit it.
Basically if I could have dealt with criminals or enemies and actually achieved something I may have stayed around, in a game world were there was some fear and some reason to respect anything.

Also evil guys you don’t have to kill people to be evil, my villain did a lot of damage and most people liked Maliss. You really don’t have to be like what ever that ridiculous idiot was who was murdering people and hiding in the forest with no skills apparently abusing a seer’s acct lol.

Lastly great to see the player count up the game world strong the new client is pretty awesome when I used it. Fact the game is no longer for me is immaterial for a built from base project this rocks. You guys need to come together more as a community and decide what you want from Illarion not what spell affect or new feature. What you really want your world to be, so the staff can facilitate that.
Thanks for great memories
Brian

P.s Those who know what I am doing now, don’t pipe up with yes he now plays a far more awesome game or something equally silly. Frankly seeing other rp places pumped on illarion is rude and I would never wish it done in my name.

I agree with Brian said whole heartedly, and it was a slap in the face when i realized it. I remember the old times in Illa, when the community actually worked together, helping new players, facilitating good quests, and even better rp. I cannot add much to what Brian said, other than his points hit home.

Mike
PO:Lork and so on and so forth
PS: good to see you about the forum Brian.

[Eresil Relondas]

I think I was mistaking all along.
I actually thought this game was a role playing game..
Hmm..

[Llama]

Nothing wrong with good characters being perma killed. In fact it should happen every so often so good suffers a loss as well. It is more likely that an evil character will be perma killed, but there is no reason that a good guy can't die too. As said, good guys should suffer a loss every so often as well.

Actually, good characters should get perma killed, its good for roleplay.

The MAIN important point is this

The 'good' fight against the 'evil'
The 'evil' fight against the 'good' and the 'innocent'

Now the innocent will get really angry, and the evil will have the rest of Gobaith after them

If the evil wants to suceed, it needs to pick on its targets carefully. thats the point of it.

[Rasteel Olin]

Alright, I'd like to give my two cents on that.
First of all, there is a new, fresh evil coming out. You simply need to play the right kind of character to know about it before it crops up.

Secondly, something most here don't seem to note is that.. (Quoted from somewhere I can't remember..):
Evil isn't stupid and it isn't nasty. It's sinister and devious.
If you kill for fun, sure you are evil, but you are mainly being blunt, and there's much worse you can do than that. (Just like Johnny Lant, he's not really evil, just a bad temper).

So basically, in my opinion;
Grabbing a woman by the hair, placing a dagger to her throat and slowly sliding it till her death, isn't evil.

Grabbing a woman, jailing her in a cell for five days without food till she starts crying of hunger, then bringing her child, pinning him to the ground and chopping his head off with a hatchet, then throwing the head into the cell, so she dies of shock AND hunger, is what I call evil.

[AlexRose]

Perhaps your problems stem from the fact that you think you are supposed to beat the evil side.

This is not some single player RPG where you play the hero who goes on the quest to destroy the evil lich.

It is infact a multiplayer game. The evil players arn't there for YOUR entertainment and to feed your ego by being defeated. They are there to play the game.

Its not about defeating them, its about interacting with them. If anyone had bothered to interact with Nalzaxx beyond "OMG Lich L3ts pwnzor" they would have realised he WAS a different kind of evil.

Instead you decide to bring it here because the evil players are not conforming to what you think they should do. They are not there to be destroyed by you. They keep coming back when you kill them just as you keep coming back when we kill you.

Why is it when an evil player kills a good player he can come back after awhile and continue without incident. But if a good player kills an evil one it is expected to be a perma kill and is "bad rp" if the evil player comes back just as the good player did?

There is the false impression in many of the players that evil only exists to be defeated. This attitude needs to change. They are not here to be defeated, this is a multiplayer game, they are here to be interacted with

Nothing more to say.

You can't talk Avalyon; your opinion is biased as you play the fecking owner of occulte noctournalis and simply wish privilages on yourself. You've already had a huge share of privilages, remember? e.g. your 8 runes in a week.

[Llama]

Grabbing a woman, jailing her in a cell for five days without food till she starts crying of hunger, then bringing her child, pinning him to the ground and chopping his head off with a hatchet, then throwing the head into the cell, so she dies of shock AND hunger, is what I call evil.

Thats also likely to get you banned...

STILL, we could use one of those

[Rasteel Olin]

Why's it likely to get you banned? I didn't say you had to force role play it, and I'm sure theres a few decent roleplayers of good who would agree participating in such a scene..

But in other terms too, yeah, they should pick their targets precisely.. Not just invade with a horde of skeletons and slay every breathing thing.
It's rather choosing, for instance, the governor.
Kidnapping him.
The magistrate comes to look for him, trespasses in the 'evil''s land, that is against their rules, they kill him "lawfully"..

[Aristeaus]

I thought i had something to say but i dont, i no longer really play anymore as the people who know me realise, yet most of the answers really are commen sense, but this seems to be lacking in most off the community these days. *shrugs* There never used to be arguements to the scale that there are today, the few odd flames yes, but never like this. And in those days those flames were taken seriously, but now its like the boy who cried wolf, im certain that the players need someone to pat thier head everytime they graze thier knee.

[Gro'bul]

Are you kidding me? There were endless convo's about elaralith logging and Grant Herion and his shananagins.


Aaaaanyway, I agree with pendar. Now you can be robbed at any time in town, theres no safe haven besides behind locked doors of guildhouses and silverbrand. I guess the general interest in playing normal chars is receded and traditional campfire roleplay is on the back burner as far as player aspirations are concerned, and the environment doesn't facilitate it either.

[Nalzaxx]

Saying evil characters should be created in view that they will get perma killed eventually is complete bullshit. It's a purely subjective argument and therefore not valid.

[Nitram]

How do you define "evil" ?

[Aristeaus]

A lich is evil etc.

A bandit is more neautral..

Well retlak isnt evil, but i think he is meant to be a joke, no offence Ret.

And i disagree to silas, thats more.. neautral evil etc. By evil i class, mm hard to exaplin.

Silas isnt evil, just selfish

[Korm Kormsen]

that is question, difficult to respond.

a thief must not be evil. he can be just bad. same for a robber.
but a robber, who, after getting what he wants, tortures and kills his victim just for fun, that would be an evil robber, i think.

so, might be: evil = doing bad things to others, just for doing them. not just to reach a goal.

[Aristeaus]

Precisely, this is where i think people get confused. When i say evil. from the past you can use as examples. Darlok, Drahken, Ashakuul, The undead in general ie Nalzaxx.. Once again Retlak isnt evil he is joke :p.