Illarion.org

I believe this is being questioned before but I don't feel like to search thread to thread to find it. So I just want a quick answer.

Why can't I pour dye out of bucket? I have made some dye but I don't whie cloth that time and don't feel like to go to sheer or kill some sheep. So I just want my buckes back, but there is no way I can do it. I try to pour it to the grass, I even try to dye my hair with it.

I think we should be able to dump dye out of bucket.

Why did you mix the dye if you weren't going to dye cloth? This seems a bit silly.

I was trying make something new. I could also practice Alchemy you know.

Because mixing 100 dye and then tossing it out for skill is..... I'll let you make the call.

He's trying to say no sane man in that day would waste buckets of dye.

yeah. just sell the dye for like a copper or two each. i would buy it two for that price if i had any money on me.

Hadre Taliset wrote:yeah. just sell the dye for like a copper or two each. i would buy it two for that price if i had any money on me.

For a copper or two?
Well, the material costs more than that.
back in the days when i sell dye, the best was 5 copper and the dearest 8 copper... just when i get the buckets back..

Solumn, I think the reason no-one pays a lot for dye is because of two reasons.

1) There are few people who do 'cloth' tailoring because it just doesn't pay. So dying is just a 'moonlight' task in Alchemy to get to the good stuff. Nobody takes it seriously.

2) The process of gathering wool, making Balls of yarn, weaving it into Grey cloth, bleaching it white, then making the dye, then dying the cloth......BEFORE you can make anything with it is just a PAIN IN THE A@@!!!!!! I think the "Cloth" Tailoring system, although very thorough and well done, just doesn't compare to the "easier" crafts of smithing, carpentry or even cooking which pay much better.

In my opinion, trying to be a "cloth" tailor versus a leather one, takes a real committment, because it just doesn't pay enough for the work you have to do.

But if you really want to torture yourself with dyes, here's the answer you seek.............



find a barrel and bend over............

I too have noticed that it's a bit hard to find a skilled cloth tailor.. Sadly

I also forgot to mention that clothing have no immediate use in the game, besides "Player satisfaction". So they are pretty useless.

You can eat food.
You can kill things with weapons.
You can make potions with bottles.
You can make staffs and arrows with wood to kill things.
You can enhance skills with Gold rings (so I've heard)
You can plant trees with a bucket and fruit.
The list for other skills goes on and on....


Most of the crafts have an In-game usefulness. But clothing, none.

Maybe this will change when and IF we are able to have our Avatars actually "Look" like what they wear. But until then, Cloth is a pretty useless and severly undervalued skill, both with players and with NPC's.

And dude, I was serious about your answer, that's what's so funny about it.

First of all, I am not try to make a living out of tailoring or dying.

Dying in my opinion is best way to practice alchemy if they allow us recycle the buckets without the cloth. Brewing is terrible, you have to run around to pick fruits while you can farm most of ingredient for dying.

Why can't we waste dye? Blacksmith and carpenters do all the time, they dump most of their bad products. Oh, just because there is no quality different between dyes. I see this stops us to dump dye. This is jut color liquid, we can pour water then we should be able to do the same with dye.

I don't see any of you always keep anything you made.

How about use dye on the wall? That is not exactly waste. Maybe it is diffcult to code the wall being colorful. Imagine graffiti on trolls bane's wall.

I think thats in there to prevent powergaming?

Create, dump, create dump, create dump.

There , 1 bucket and enough dye to last you for your life...

Solumn wrote:First of all, I am not try to make a living out of tailoring or dying.

Dying in my opinion is best way to practice alchemy if they allow us recycle the buckets without the cloth. Brewing is terrible, you have to run around to pick fruits while you can farm most of ingredient for dying.

Why can't we waste dye? Blacksmith and carpenters do all the time, they dump most of their bad products. Oh, just because there is no quality different between dyes. I see this stops us to dump dye. This is jut color liquid, we can pour water then we should be able to do the same with dye.

I don't see any of you always keep anything you made.

How about use dye on the wall? That is not exactly waste. Maybe it is diffcult to code the wall being colorful. Imagine graffiti on trolls bane's wall.

Actually Brewing is better. You can use or sell the brews.

Not all of the dye ingredients are 'grown'. And I don't believe many blacksmiths or carpenters 'waste' things they make, they sell them. It takes time to gather materials for that stuff. If they are, then they are just 'powergaming' their skills.

Veteran craftsmen would make what sells. Not junk that has no purpose. Only fighters try to pawn off or drop that junk.

As far as using dye to 'Paint' with? That's nonsense, because the dye is 'water-based' so it would wash off whatever you painted with the first rain.

As far as just dumping out dye, again, I would call that powergaming. I'll call it like I see it. Besides, the Fairies and Elves wouldn't appreciate it, would they?

If you really want to get rid of that dye, give them to Dusty, he'll give you your buckets back. Quit whining about it. I wouldn't make dye unless you plan on using it. Too time consuming and it can be frustrating.

Just my opinion.

What does this do with powergameing? Ask any blacksmith, how many creation they have toss away? I bet some of they can be sold to some weak character. I remember some people complain about forge 3000 sheets and still can't level far. 3000? If even in poor craft, it can create army yet I don't see it. I think it's unfair for smith and carpenter can waste their so-called bad products but dyer can't.

Umm....I have never wasted anything Dusty has made in any of the skills....Carpentry, Smithing, Goldsmithing, Glassblowing or otherwise. He has bags and bags of things in three depots to show for it. Never know when someone will need something.

Time is too short to gather materials, make something only to throw it out to increase skill. Honestly, what real "Craftsman" would do that????

A Craftsman "properly" role-played would treasure his creations. Either keep them or sell them. They would never just throw them out.

If they do it's powergaming dude, short and sweet.

About selling products, I see much. 100 of second-rank won't equal a good one. Dusty, remind me again who once said we should not use NPC because of their price? And what make you think other players will interest in that 100 second-rank.

Each item in game has certain use, yet I think it should be decided by its creator. Same thing goes library search, why do you read over the same books again and again? Because you lost memory? Then why I can't RP have bad dye then toss them away?

I dunno how we go from dye to reading books.....

Dusty will read books occasionally to find lost knowledge or get some hints I might have missed. Not over and over again.

I don't believe I ever said not to sell to NPC's. They bring money into the game as well as take it out and lacking a real 'player' economy, they are vital, despite the prices being messed up on things. That can always be fixed later. I simply suggested it would be nice to develop a player economy, but that may never happen.

I don't make the game rules, I play within them and I just see some of the logic in the system. Dumping out dye, would defeat the purpose of making it. I don't know why you don't see that as powergaming?

they only way a player econamie could surive if there was some way to bring money into and out the system. For example a trade ship that comes every week or so that will buy goods and sell goods to eliza and such.


on the topic of dumping items though, If I just made items people wanted I would never gain any skill. People dont want chain shirts or helmets. They get that stuff from monster and such. I personal think that armor and things should break when killing monsters and they should only get coin and wepons from them, oh and some other items that the monster would carry in a bag.

I have to smith and throw away my crap items because I know there will never be a use for it. No one will ever buy it or will want to.


Im kinda have a lose grip on my ideas but comming back to the merchant ship idea. I think this could be possiable if a gm did it. The gm could control the flow of money into the game, start a depression and such. The ship could come with different amounts of items and that would be eliza stock for the week and such. The merchent ship could buy these items that crafters never sell to anyone and could place a demand on other items for crafter to make that isnt there.

I dont know im having a hard time forming my ideas, got into an arugment with someone today and felt like I lost it.

There are some tailors around who need dye, and who cannot make it on their own.

But they will only buy it for a few copper, and the buckets itself costs that.

That's because they cannot sell their wares at a working price. See, you can sell a coloured shirt (black) and the NPC gives you 2 copper.
How many pieces of cloth can you color with one pot of dye ?

That's exactly one of my points is that clothing is very 'undervalued'.

A Blue dress should be worth 20 or 30 coppers, not a measley 4. Then Maris could sell them for 60 or 70 instead of 30.

Mage and priest robes, even more. Maybe even have some 'magical' mage robes, huh?

Black trousers are the only thing worth making at 6 each.

You know, for a medieval based economy, where wool was King, there isn't much emphasis on it. Very few sheep, One true 'Tailor' NPC, and poverty prices on clothing. It could do with some adjustments.

Honestly, if it wasn't for a certain NPC paying way too much for shoes, I don't think anyone would go into tailoring.

No, you can make very good money indeed from leather armours from morgan. 15 coppers for leather scale, 25 for light hunting, and 45 coppers for full leather armour

Also, you cannot sell dye for more than 5 coppers, because colored cloth costs 5 coppers.

Skaalib, the "leather" side of tailoring is just fine. We were discussing the "Cloth" side which involves Dyes.

If the "Cloth" Items were worth close to what their leather counterparts were worth, It would be fine I think.

Juniper Onyx wrote:Honestly, if it wasn't for a certain NPC paying way too much for shoes, I don't think anyone would go into tailoring.

Sorry, just responding to this quote.

Too many voices, I lost where we are. How can we go to talk about price and NPC?

I can understand certain crafts take some "skill" to make. But hello, without other craftmen teach you, you just so happen to make new armours every two days of working?! You should earn to craft something from instruction of book or another craftsman who has this knowledge to teach you. Yet the game does not like that. Although the game clearly state not be a leveling game but never get rid of very center idea of it.

Carpenter may just want to make good craft and dump rest of second-rank, don't tell me that does not happen in medieval time? About practice and improve skill, since the game does not have "teach trade" between players, concentrate on crafting to gain knowledge to make something new is the way of game for "teach trade". But keeping every junk we made for that process but not able to make to sell them?....

This also go with fighting. Not once, but many times I see people fight with so-called good RP. One can't kill a wolf yet behave like a expert fighter when in combat with another warrior. Showing some "awesome moves". Yeah, they certainly do not powergameing to become awesome warrior. They just so-call RP one.

I don't say we should powergame yet something is mix up in the game. Like Samantha accuse you powergaming when you talk about vase. A good concentrate on his craft become powergamer and bad player, yet those who claim to have good RP don't check on their color bar of skills.

Powergamers are those who just care leveling, once they reach highest pont. Gamer over. But you can not say those want better things for their characters are powergamers. You guys can't seriously expect any smith to make dagger for a living. Come on, how many of you don't want a longsword but a dagger?

Let me summary my points. Keep crafting to level up to make new product is not powergaming. Of course, if keep doing often then it is. Ditch some you made is compete your choice for whatever reasons, no one buy them or price ain't right and don't enough space to store them.

just find a tailor and work with them, give them dye and ask for them to return the buckets, that simple, I never had a problem with dye

Solumn wrote:I can understand certain crafts take some "skill" to make. But hello, without other craftmen teach you, you just so happen to make new armours every two days of working?! You should earn to craft something from instruction of book or another craftsman who has this knowledge to teach you. Yet the game does not like that...

Yes it does....It's called 'ask in game!' Even in medieval times, you couldn't learn carpentry from a book! You had to find a master carpenter and apprentice (aka ask!). It is a Role-playing game after all, sheesh!

Solumn wrote:Carpenter may just want to make good craft and dump rest of second-rank, don't tell me that does not happen in medieval time?

Ok, it didn't. The 'second' rate goods were often sold to peasants and the good stuff, sold or given to nobility. Once you have physically labored over making a table, sword or whatever, you're going to find some use for it. If you ever made something by hand, you'd understand. Even children are proud of their 'second' rate things and treasure them. "Thowing" out second rate stuff didn't really happen until the industrial revolution made things cheaper and 'easier' to throw away.

Solumn wrote:About practice and improve skill, since the game does not have "teach trade" between players, concentrate on crafting to gain knowledge to make something new is the way of game for "teach trade". But keeping every junk we made for that process but not able to make to sell them?....

Ok, if you know it's junk, why spend the hard hours collecting materials, making it after failing a few times, only to throw it away? You're just trying to justify powergaming.

Solumn wrote:This also go with fighting. Not once, but many times I see people fight with so-called good RP. One can't kill a wolf yet behave like a expert fighter when in combat with another warrior. Showing some "awesome moves". Yeah, they certainly do not powergameing to become awesome warrior. They just so-call RP one.

I don't see anything wrong with Role-playing combat. Actually I just went on a quest like that and we killed demons, snakes, Kraken and a Gnoll King, all RP'd and it was fun. (Thanks William!) As long as the character isn't in 'mortal' danger, I think more RP combat should be encouraged.

Solumn wrote:I don't say we should powergame yet something is mix up in the game. Like Samantha accuse you powergaming when you talk about vase. A good concentrate on his craft become powergamer and bad player, yet those who claim to have good RP don't check on their color bar of skills.

Yeah, that was funny, and really showed me what little She knows about the crafts. Vase in Glassblowing isn't Light green skill, or even close.
I only have 2 skills in the Light Green Category, but they are Lumberjacking and Mining. Everything else are shades from light blue to aqua-green. People shouldn't make assumptions based on "percieved" skills. Dusty doesn't have to powergame. He truly has requests all the time for 200 bottles of this, 100 bottles of that....200 Grain...500 boards..etc. At the same time, he sets aside some materials for Greenbriar. He actually singlehandedly bought out Silverbrand's supply of ores (3000 ores) last week. Ask Thurbert. And he has used it up already, so he'll be buying more rather than waste hours mining it himself. He has developed clients that know and trust him to get what they need for often lower prices than anyone else. At the same time, he doesn't mind buying things from others rather than wasting time to collect them. It's a win-win and helps a 'player' economy. It's not rocket science, just business.

Solumn wrote:Powergamers are those who just care leveling, once they reach highest pont. Gamer over. But you can not say those want better things for their characters are powergamers. You guys can't seriously expect any smith to make dagger for a living. Come on, how many of you don't want a longsword but a dagger?

In my opinion, powergaming is the useless pursuit of skill. Making things and then throwing them away for the purpose of gaining skill is powergaming. It's why we have "Action" caps that say "You urgently need to rest to be mentally fit again". It's to prevent the senseless waste of actions to gain skills. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but we should try to minimize it, not justify why throwing things away is a good thing (aka Powergaming).

Solumn wrote:Let me summary my points. Keep crafting to level up to make new product is not powergaming. Of course, if keep doing often then it is. Ditch some you made is compete your choice for whatever reasons, no one buy them or price ain't right and don't enough space to store them.

Again you are trying to justify something that would imbalance the game. I know Dusty 'seems' very capable, but it has taken a long time, lots of customers and some strategy on what to make to get the highest profit for my time invested. He has developed well, but there are several better than he at many crafts. Dusty just plods along, doing whatever strikes his fancy, and the skills come along. He doesn't try to 'level' up, it just happens as he ages. In a given day (Aka Today), he helped Rumil with the crops, explored the Troll Woods, killed a wolf, discussed Politics and gathered conifer boards and fruit and he leveled up in three areas. All of his days are just as busy and varied. He doesn't have to "Powergame".

To justify powergaming by saying "It's OK to throw stuff away to gain craft skills" is nonsense. You began by asking how to empty your dye. Let's end with that by saying "ask In-game"

Solumn wrote:
Carpenter may just want to make good craft and dump rest of second-rank, don't tell me that does not happen in medieval time?


Ok, it didn't. The 'second' rate goods were often sold to peasants and the good stuff, sold or given to nobility. Once you have physically labored over making a table, sword or whatever, you're going to find some use for it. If you ever made something by hand, you'd understand. Even children are proud of their 'second' rate things and treasure them. "Throwing" out second rate stuff didn't really happen until the industrial revolution made things cheaper and 'easier' to throw away.

The interesting part you bring up here, and what I DO still like about Illarion, is that people even used to buy my grey coats that I made, and the shoes that I crafted. My tailor never even had to take her resort to NPCs.
Ah well, just think about selling your goods to players rather than NPCs. Will get you a good time as well.