~ Building Rules / Bauregeln ~

[Thorin Solfgar]

I assume to have caravans and such as good idea. But I can't see how this
will resolve the problems. If you slow down the travel possiblities, you will
get more stationary roleplay, because travel will be too dangerous and/or
too expensive for a certain kind of characters. If you invent and enforce
a transportation system, there have to be an economical basis to run this
new form of enterprise. Keep in mind that a civilisation have to have the
ability to survive. No dwarven kingdom could exist if they can't feed their
inhabitants. I prefer to have that for example halflings can make food better
than someone else, so that every race/town is interested in getting food from
them, but it can't be the only reasonable way. If you are dependent to
player merchants who organize the caravans, you will get the problem of
"possibility". We have RL restrictions of online times, but the crafters are
dependant on the merchants to get money for their essentials. If you can't
meet a merchant because you have not enough players online to have a
merchant and his caravan guards in time when you need them, you will
loose.

Be aware that the players of a MMORPG are the minority of the supposed
to be inhabitants. So far Illarion seem to try to ignore this. But it is
beneficial to think of it. For example: yesterday there were a lot of
robbery attempts in Trolls Bane, some of them with no RP at all and with
log-out fleeing, when the present citizens fight back. There is a group of
players called "Trolls Bane Town Guard" and a group "Silver Arm" who
is paid to patrol Trolls Bane afaik. But every char I talked about the
situation there, said that neither were present.

A town guard or a mercenary group offers security and should have
a demand of weapons, armor and food. But at current state of players
online and economical situation the crafters produce with a weapon in
their other hand or belt. If a citizen cries for the town guard, which
supposed to be a handful in a city like Trolls Bane and nobody is online
(OOC reason) why should this citizen want to pay taxes IC for the
assumed to be there but never present security?

We need solutions that will function with the few players active we have
but which also grants benefits if a task is done by a player instead of
an NPC. It has to be attractive to let things to be done by players! But
the supply has to be possible with struggling player numbers or the whole
system will collapse or it is upheld by totally unreasonable game
mechanics.

For example: A player present in game for one Illarion day should get
hungry even if he only sits on a chair and chats or watches the
surrounding. It is unreasonable at all that you can live in Illarion without
any problems by not working at all for your essentials.

So every player should have demands to be filled based on his situation.
A town guard needs weapons, armor and food regularly and should get
this from the town or get enough money as salary to supply himself.
A town mayor should need fine tailor goods/dishes and so on to
represent a living standard he is supposed to have.

Do not forget the simple profit thinking: if I buy X to make Y from it, then
it should be possible to sell Y for more than I did by X. If this is not
possible, basic economy laws say that you won't make profit by doing it.
Stop thinking in macro-economy terms if the micro-economy is totally
broke and can't function. There is no macro-economy without micro-economy.

Imho there are mainly three kinds of actions at present gameplay state:
1. producing something to sell to a NPC - insulted as powergaming
2. producing something to gain skill but for no profit
because it can't be sold at a reasonable price - insulted as powergaming
3. Avoid any action which drive demands - labelled as good RP
avoiding any bare necessities by benefiting from the non-existence of
necessary restrictions or benefiting from unreasonable gifts granted
by Illarion like living months from only eating apples if you get hungry at
all.

True roleplay would be in my eyes if these things weren't dividable.
If you want to be somebody on top of the social ladder, you should
have to have a way to earn the necessary money for it. On the other
hand you should be able to earn that money reasonably.

At current state we will get "magic merchants" who teleport with the
goods to their destination because they gain the mana for free in a bit
of time. No "travelling merchant" will be able to bet this by risking live
and goods while travelling with caravans and paying the guards for
accompanying him. The other possible exploit of the upcoming situation is
a good transport runner, created with max speed and strength to carry
the goods, so he can run away from any robbery attempt.
Without the ability to travel save to another place
(without loads of goods in your belt) the roleplay will die a slow death, because you will normally have only the handful of players present in
your town and no possibility to meet others unless you play a
fighter-type char who is able to protect himself.

[Korm Kormsen]

Keep in mind that a civilisation have to have the
ability to survive. No dwarven kingdom could exist if they can't feed their
inhabitants. I prefer to have that for example halflings can make food better
than someone else, so that every race/town is interested in getting food from
them, but it can't be the only reasonable way.

i have written more or less the same in another boardsection.
to your example - if dwaves could not farm (or could not farm good) they still could slaughter pigs and harvest some fruit. they would need others for better food, not for all food.

If you can't
meet a merchant because you have not enough players online to have a
merchant and his caravan guards in time when you need them, you will
loose.

a couple of days ago i proposed player owned NPC-traders, that could sell the wares, their owners have them stocked up with.

There is a group of
players called "Trolls Bane Town Guard" and a group "Silver Arm" who
is paid to patrol Trolls Bane afaik. But every char I talked about the
situation there, said that neither were present.

as i wrote about a week or two ago, we should have NPC townguards (Baldur's Gate-style) that should keep at least some part of the towns safe for non fighters.

For example: A player present in game for one Illarion day should get
hungry even if he only sits on a chair and chats or watches the
surrounding. It is unreasonable at all that you can live in Illarion without
any problems by not working at all for your essentials. So every player should have demands to be filled based on his situation.

fully agreed.

At current state we will get "magic merchants" who teleport with the
goods to their destination because they gain the mana for free in a bit
of time. No "travelling merchant" will be able to bet this by risking live
and goods while travelling with caravans and paying the guards for
accompanying him.

that is, why i am in contra of every joe and jack being able to travel by book or gate.
in my opinion, there should be only a couple of high level mages be able to travel by magic.

a good transport runner, created with max speed and strength to carry
the goods, so he can run away from any robbery attempt.

no. i would be content, when robbers would leave the towns, i would not want to extinguish them entirely.

[Lennier]

I like the idea. Though, lets say a guild wants to buy 3 tools at once(first purchase of tools for the guild). Will that cost them 100 silvers? or 60?

100 silver coins in total. But the quoted prices are only an example at the moment to explain the concept.

At Kormson: I see the point which you tried to explain. Yes. My solution to this would be following.

A town has a number of tools free to use for all citizens. This is "Account A". A guild in this town has an own account of tools ("Account B"), because the most guilds have much more strict rules about the access to their building and tools inside. In general only for members or about licenses.

I see no real problem here. If a town has no treasure to buy anymore tools, maybe it would be a good idea to search for people, which want to found a guild, with own tools. I would not have something against it. It would be the advantage of founding of social and political "structures", which are really needed ingame.


I do not know what you mean with, that the whole trading and crafting system need to be changed again. This is not the topic here. Equal how the crafting processes look like, differences between the settlements are needed beside of it. At the map i only have the possibility to force differences about the ressources and tools. But tools are something, which should be reachable and buy-able for all. But the people should really think about, what kind of tools are needed in their location and group. And thats a question about the price and rules about it. I do not really want to say to the players "No, i do not want, that you get this." I want to point at rules, which are for all.

[Siltaris]

Gobiath is not large enough and has not enough players to run an economy with villages fighting each others.

Illarion has not enough players in general, BUT it has too less players who are continuously active. I have the feeling that most of the current players hardly care for political structures, for the political background, for any structures which could influence their private roleplay. As long as there are only a few of those, who DO care, it is indeed very difficult to set up such an isle-wide economy.. not to mention any wars taking place at the same time between any villages.

However, in general I have to agree to many of Thorin's statements. The problems cannot be tackled by changing some aspects of the game alone. It has to be a bundle of actions and the players minds have to change, too.



Back to topic.

Based on what I have tried to explain above, I do not like the idea to try to make differences in the stock of stationary tools between towns. In my personal opinion, there already are too few (active) players for the number of locations we currently have. Sometimes I have the feeling that we need less locations.
I do not like measures which would make some towns less attractive because they cannot provide the desired tools.

Apart from that, crafting is not balanced. Consequently, people and guilds supposably would focus on those tools which make most profit. Tailors and bakers presumably will fall apart.

[Korm Kormsen]

lennier,

i wrote:

i would prefer to rethink the whole crafting and trading "system".

with that i did not mean "change". i meant think about it, to see, where it has to be fleshed out, where it has tu be cut a bit, where it needs to be easyer, where it needs to be more complicated.

if i for instance say, put in one or two additional workprocesses in farm-production, i dont want to change the system, i only want to cull overproduction of agricultural products.

(the problem is, as player, i only get fuzzy input. so at best, i can give fuzzy suggestions.)


------------

siltaris,

Sometimes I have the feeling that we need less locations.

lets erase trolls bane!!!1!!!

a game functions like a shop. if you don't offer enough, nobody will stay to buy.

this game does not need to be cut back to an earlier state.

the game should be adjusted to changing circumstances.

you can look in both languages, you'll see the same thing:
the new players, coming to play, are different to the players, that left and leave.
in general they are younger and less articulate.
it is a fact, that education is going down everywhere.
so you simply can not get the same type of player anymore, that you were used to.
we (and that means the more dedicated players and the staff) should evolve something, where we can live and interact with simpler players
.

[Noglik]

lennier,


the new players, coming to play, are different to the players, that left and leave.
in general they are younger and less articulate.
it is a fact, that education is going down everywhere.
so you simply can not get the same type of player anymore, that you were used to.
we (and that means the more dedicated players and the staff) should evolve something, where we can live and interact with simpler players
.

That is utter c***. I don't know what country you come from but I'm in England and have just done my GCSEs. Where do you get your statistics from anyway?

[Korm Kormsen]

first: everybody on earth knows, british, and specially english are allways and everywhere an exception.
so it was not necessary, to mention it.

second:
either you live very protected, and are so lucky, to have only upper class friends,
or you yourself have no base, to compare the results of former education to the actual.

third: forgeddit!

[Noglik]

I'm not upper class you fool. I know chavs are some of the most stupid people on the planet, but how many are playing illarion? I mentioned I was Enlglish because that is what country I come from, I wasn't trying to be all high and mighty ¬¬

Oh you might want to check your spelling too, there is no such word as 'forgeddit'

[Korm Kormsen]

Oh you might want to check your spelling too, there is no such word as 'forgeddit'

ain't there?
please forgive my ignorance, i'm just a vog.

[AlexRose]

lennier,


the new players, coming to play, are different to the players, that left and leave.
in general they are younger and less articulate.
it is a fact, that education is going down everywhere.
so you simply can not get the same type of player anymore, that you were used to.
we (and that means the more dedicated players and the staff) should evolve something, where we can live and interact with simpler players
.

That is utter c***. I don't know what country you come from but I'm in England and have just done my GCSEs. Where do you get your statistics from anyway?

How is that relevant whatsoever? I'm pretty sure Korm means that the standard of education is going down, not the amount of people being educated, but either way, the fact that you've done your GCSEs bears no relevance to the circumstance. EVERYONE does GCSEs, so that doesn't mean that you've been educated better than education was in previous times, because they had O Levels then, and they were supposedly a lot harder to rank highly in. I'm about to do my GCSEs, but that doesn't mean that I'd boast great education worldwide, which surpasses previous education.

[Rosendil]

Korm,

its sad to read this from a player I have mostly agreed with and always respected:

you can look in both languages, you'll see the same thing:
the new players, coming to play, are different to the players, that left and leave.
in general they are younger and less articulate.
it is a fact, that education is going down everywhere.
so you simply can not get the same type of player anymore, that you were used to.
we (and that means the more dedicated players and the staff) should evolve something, where we can live and interact with simpler players

I completely disagree!

Rosendil

[Noglik]

How is that relevant whatsoever? I'm pretty sure Korm means that the standard of education is going down, not the amount of people being educated, but either way, the fact that you've done your GCSEs bears no relevance to the circumstance. EVERYONE does GCSEs, so that doesn't mean that you've been educated better than education was in previous times, because they had O Levels then, and they were supposedly a lot harder to rank highly in. I'm about to do my GCSEs, but that doesn't mean that I'd boast great education worldwide, which surpasses previous education.

I said that because it shows I am in the education system, and my view is that it is fine. This is one angry forum! haha

[Lennier]

Please calm down. the topic here is to discuss building rules.

[Fooser]

I think we should get rid of text and just communicate via mini-pictures, the simple players will understand that.

[Munalunder]

Ich wollt mal fragen wie tuer Hecken sind, oder sind sie nich käuflich?

[Lennier]

Rohe Steine sind nun implementiert und werden für Straßen und Burgmauern verwendet.

@Munalunder: Hecken stell ich schon immer ohne weitere Regelung auf.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Raw stones are implemented now and usefull for streets and castle walls.

[Werner von Mintraching]

Maxt Du die auch ohne weitere Regelnweg wieder weg? *vorsichtiganfrag*

[Lennier]

Ich verstehe den Inhalt deines Kommentars leider nicht. Tut mir leid...

[Jupiter]

Er will wissen ob du Hecken auch weg machst..

[Lennier]

wenn sie stören.. von mir aus.

Brandrodungen haben sich in letzter Zeit auch bewährt

[Werner von Mintraching]

naja, ich würde die Hecken beim Häuschen gerne umpflanzen. Brandrodung find ich immer so.... naja Co2-Ausstoß und Feinstaub und dann ist da noch die Brandgefahr...

Na die Hecken beim Klo hätte ich gerne ums Eck hinten am Häuschen drann dann kommt man von der Straße besser hin.

Und wenn auf der Toilette einer nen kleinen Fluch flüstert wegen der scharfen Gewürze... dann hört ma des ned gleich.

[Korm Kormsen]

dann sammel mal schoen tannensetzlinge.
in der nordmark hat der baumeister setzlinge fuers pflanzen verlangt.

[Ashayen]

Maybe someone can change the building-rules on the mainpage? I just had an argue with Crommy about the windows, was wondering why we need glass ingots, 'cause they are not listed under windows on the mainpage.

[Lennier]

With an update of the webpage of Illarion in not far future i will be able to change the page of the building rules for myself.


The list in the first post of this thread here is the only right one, like written more than one time, also since people began to change the list in the wiki in result of the differences between the list here and at the webpage.

[Miklorius]

Why is this thread not "sticky"?

[AlexRose]

Because the actual up to date building rules are on the homepage.

[Kadiya]

No, the building rules on the homepage is not actual.
This here is the actual list.

[Miklorius]

Because the actual up to date building rules are on the homepage.

Read:

With an update of the webpage of Illarion in not far future i will be able to change the page of the building rules for myself.

The list in the first post of this thread here is the only right one, like written more than one time, also since people began to change the list in the wiki in result of the differences between the list here and at the webpage.

[Fooser]

By "sand" do you mean the coarse sand, or the finished sand?

[Pellandria]

the sand you dig out, so not the sieved one.