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I just wanted to say that I think the various weapons styles need to be balanced against each other a bit.

It's no fun if everyone in the game uses a bloody double axe. But if you want to be a 'good' fighter, you pretty much have to use slashing weapons.

For example:

Maggie has yellowish-green concussion and parry. However, she gets her head handed to her by someone with only low-to-moderate skill if they're using a double axe... and that's with her in decent armor, and them in just leather.

Now, this seems to have gotten *slightly* better with the big fighting system overhaul, but it's still way out of whack if you ask me.


I speak from experience when I say that someone who is proficient with a staff is on equal footing with someone who is proficient with an axe. Yes, the axe does more damage... but the staff is much, much faster.


In game terms, the 'best' weapon of each style should do about the same amount of damage in a given time. for example:

double axe - 30 points of damage per hit, 1 hit in 10 seconds - 30 pts/10 seconds

battle staff - 5 points of damage per hit, 1 hit in 1.7 seconds - 29.4 pts/10 seconds


The differences don't need to be quite that extreme, but it's just an example.

I realize that, Richard. You missed my point entirely. ::sighs:: All I'm saying, is that everything else being equal (stats, skill levels, etc.), someone weilding the best conc weapon, or slashing weapon, or whatever... should be on roughly equal footing with someone using a double axe.

That's all. And that isn't how it is now.

I agree all weapens apart from double axes are void once more.

You can parry more with a double axe than with a shield it seems..

Yeah, I tried that and it seems so.

It does seem that double axes are much better than other weapons. I used to dtruglle with mummies but now they are easy.

concussion weapons have always been a bit weak compared to bladed weapons and there are sooo many bladed weapons. if you want you use your concussion skill to it's fullest i suggest buying a shiled and using a one hander now a days.

two handed weapons have been slowed down to a bit more of a believeable speed (double axes were worst when they were the strongest AND fastest weapons in the game). but because there slow they need to do more damage.

i agree however double axes have always needed to be toned down, this was mentioned a year ago by myself but duely ignored. and not just concussion weapons need to be improved. but the other weapons groupings.


Rapiers suck for instance. they're barely better then a dagger, and not many people can win a fight with a dagger. even if there very skilled with them.

staff's need to be faster, they aren't made of metal nor carry rediclously heavy heads like axes. they should rightly be a bit faster. warhammer should remain the same.

wtf does a sling do anyway? but here's a big one and i'll highlight it and keep posting it until it drives Nitram crazy (and if he doesn't look then i'll just have to IM him....alot ) it seems one handed throwing weapons like stars and spears can't be used if your holding an object in your other hand, meaning there practically still two handed weapons only alot weaker. the point of them is to be able to be used while holding an item like a shield but you do less damage then a bow or crossbow.

okay i'm done now.

Spare a thougth for totally unarmed.

No shield means no parry; and the dodge skill is VERY slow to increase... (don't know why)

Hadrian_Abela wrote:Spare a thougth for totally unarmed.

No shield means no parry; and the dodge skill is VERY slow to increase... (don't know why)

completely untrue. parry happens anyway. i'm sure if you ask a noob, he'll tell you he's even been parried by a rabbit once or twice. and tw handed weapons also parry very well.

O_o

What on earth do you parry with? Your fist? oww...

Ok, if you DO parry then thats ok; still no increase in my parry though

i think one might be able to manage parrying a blow with steel gloves on. after all a parry is a redirection of force. it's not like blocking where you take the full brunt of a hit.

Well right now, using either a one handed weapon, or a 2 handed weapon, or a one handed weapon + shield, its always the same, nearly exact parry, try it, its getting worked on I think though, just wait.

I have a few suggestions for improving the 'balance' of the fighting system. Some of them may be implemented, and some of them may be fresh ideas. Since I know nothing of the combat system in Illarion, I shall assume nothing.


Armour

In terms of armour, the player is presented with several choices, for my purposes I'll refer to three key points on the 'armour' scale, and everything else in between will be implied. On one extreme, you have the plate armours, in the middle you have chainmail, and on the other extreme you have leather armour. The choice between these armours should not be made simply based upon the type of character, but also upon the situation in which the character will be fighting.

Leather Armour -
Leather armour should be the logical choice for characters with great agility. It is both lightweight, and offers greater mobility than the other armours (except clothing, but if you don't want anyone to be fighting in plain clothes, don't add any more penalty to leather armour than that which clothing would have). For this reason, leather armour would allow those with high agility to utilize their full dodging skills. I would even suggest that in a one-on-one battle between a skilled, agile dodger, and an armoured knight, the dodger would be victorious. However, it should be remember that it is very difficult to dodge the attacks of multiple opponents

In Conclusion;
-No penalty to dodge
-No penalty to speed
-Good choice for character with high dodge skills, and high agility
-Very little damage resistance
-More effective than plate armour in one-on-one combat
-Loses effectiveness if faced by a second opponent

Plate Armour -
Plate armour is the choice for knights and warriors with great constitution. It is heavy and cumbersome, but provides excellent resistance to damage. This would be the choice for characters who don't dodge blows, but simply minimize the impact. Although lacking the effectiveness of leather armour when facing a single foe, the armour does not diminish in effectiveness when faced by multiple foes, because unlike dodging, plate armour catches every blow.

In Conclusion;
-large penalty to dodge
-large penalty to speed
-Good choice for character with low dodge skills, and high constitution
-large damange resistance
-effective against multiple opponents

Chainmail -
Chainmail, and other armours, would occupy the positions between the two extremes, offering decent chances to dodge, moderate damage resistance, and less of a speed reduction.


Weaponry

It seems there is a great focus on achieving a balance between speed, damage, and accuracy between the weapons, when more focus should be placed on making certain weapons more effective in certain situations. Sure, you could make every weapon balanced, and as effective as the last, but then what's the point of even having different weapons? You might as well replace all weapons with a token that's either (bad weapons), (medium weapon), and (good weapon), and let players call it whatever the hell they want, but I don't think that's a good solution.

I won't claim certain aspects of my suggestions are realistic, but this is a game. After all the discussion that's gone into decided which weapon should be stronger/faster/harder, I'm going to skip right over that (though I do have certain ideas about it), and suggest that Illarion should adopt a system bearing some resemblance to rock-paper-scissors. I'll keep it short, because the concept is fairly simple. Against certain sorts of armour, certain weapons would be more effective. I'm not going to lie, I can't explain how this is realistic, but in terms of balance, it makes alot of sense.

Heavy Armours
Piercing > Concussion > Slashing
Light Armours
Slashing > Piercing > Concussion
Medium Armours
Concussion > Slashing > Piercing


Those are my ideas for achieving a bit more balance in the fighting system. Although certainly not all of my ideas, those were the most pertinent. For more questions, you know how to get in contact with me. *wink wink, nudge nudge*

Korwin, those were wonderful ideas.

I do just want to add (for the third time) what I was talking about was *all other things being equal*... ie, no armor or whatever.

I think there is a basis of your little 'effectiveness chart' there at the end... it just doesn't seem to be real strong yet.

Warriors with light armors better than heavily armored ones? I do not find it really logical nor balanced, think about it, why should someone using the armor he got from killing undeads be better than the other one that paid his armor 20 silvers? I do not think so, you must also consider that most fights are duels.

For the armor/weapon, it should be pretty much the opposite, light armors should be good agaisnt concussion weapons, because they are slower thus easier to dodge (or absorbs well the shock in case of staves), while heavy armors are solid and should not be easily broken by a small sword.

Warriors with light armors better than heavily armored ones? I do not find it really logical nor balanced, think about it, why should someone using the armor he got from killing undeads be better than the other one that paid his armor 20 silvers? I do not think so, you must also consider that most fights are duels.

If you feel that the most expensive armour should be the best for every situation, then I can't argue with that.

For the armor/weapon, it should be pretty much the opposite, light armors should be good agaisnt concussion weapons, because they are slower thus easier to dodge (or absorbs well the shock in case of staves), while heavy armors are solid and should not be easily broken by a small sword.

That's exactly how I have it written. Slashing weapons are the weakest against heavy armours, while Concussion weapons are the weakest against light armour. '>' is the greater than symbol, meaning the first weapon in the row is the strongest against that armour, and the last is the weakest.

I'd be willing to elaborate on the 'effectiveness chart' if the idea was entertained by the developers. For now, it's just a prototype.

For the armor, I thought you meant the strongest that armor is agaisnt that sort of weapons, I guess I misunderstood you.

For expensive armor, you just wanted in your post that light armor be 90% of the time more efficient(because its about that % of fights that are duels), no I do not think 'Expensive armors' should be the best for every situations, but for duels it should be, even when wearing heavy armor you can still use a shield and be rather agile, the arm armor is made to be light and give some space.

Personally, i think that wrestlign should bypass a good %age of the armor block.

Since you're not going to try to break THROUGH the armor, but trying to choke, maim or twist limbs off or something... not bleed him to death.

I also believe wrestling should effect dodge, parry, and tactics.

I have about light yellow wrestling and a pig parried my blow once, wtf is that lol

eerm.. the pig knows Kung-Fu?

I guess so be careful or else they might karate chop you also there flying kicks hurt lol

All in all it should be better now. Would be nice if you could test some PvP fights and see how the different weapons take effect.

Nitram

Thank you, Nitram. I'll do some sparring over the next couple of days and try it out.

weapons seem to be striking as fast, someitmes faster then unarmed combat. that should definatly be changed, the only thing unarmed combat has going for it is speed. since there are no weapons which increase the damage done by that skill. unless of course gloves are made to improve the damage in unarmed combat. (as in knight gloves hurt more then bare hands) if not then it need to be made a faster, or other weapons a bit slower.

would it be a possibility to some day have hand weapons?

i'm sure it'd be possible with work. but for now i'm willing to settle for not going practically blow for blow with a person wielding a sword, dagger i can understand, and it's practically blow for blow with two handed sword and axes vs unarmed combat too

strangely enough i think someone with a huge double bladed axe of doom and destruction will beath the person who wants to play fisty cuffs ;]

they very well might. but large polearms are easy to dodge and hard to bring around fast. and a cuncussion is fairly easy to give someone whent here surrounded by metal. besides i never rp killing anyone with your fists. but knocking them out makes sense.

the only time huge polarms were atually any good wasn't in singular battle they were best places on the large battlefield where there was to much choas for a man to concentrate on dodging a weapon and making a counterattack. in one on one combat a large slow weapon missing would leave your vitals open more then long enough for someone with a dagger or light sword to slip in and make a kill. but remember if we get super realistic it won't be any fun. weapons like huge axes were given names like 'horse killers' because they were used best against charging foes, taking the enemies mount or the enemy themselves during a charge.

I SO want a Zanbato. Pwease? Very few people even know what that weapon is. I do agree with what Athian is saying. Axes and Large swords would leave your body open to an Unexpierenced fighter. (Sorry to bring Total Japanese ethics to this game) Long ago, there was a style of martial arts, It was Nameless, and there was only a small group of monks that used it. What it was in essence, was a style of combat, in which large weapons such as a Zanbato, was not used so much as a weapon, but as a tool. What they would do, was swing the Zanbato at the horses legs, bring the horse down to it's front two knees, then they would use the momentum of the sword, and use it as a pivot to swing their body horizontaly and kick the rider off the horse, then use their body momentum to swing the sword up over there head and down on the fallen rider. This is just an example of how a large sword can be advantageous. But more often than not, it does leave you open.