The 'Wrestling' Skill

Sess'sth · Post by **Sess'sth** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:52 am

G'day, fellow Illarionites!

My character Sess'sth is a carpenter these days. Therefore, he's been using clubs and some projectile weapons mostly. But recently, he's been using his claws more (unarmed). I see it as more of a lizardman heritage thing, to fight with one's claws to prove one's true strength, agility, and strategy in the battlefield.

But, I don't know how potent one's fists can truly be. Some of you will come and say "Find this out ingame!!!", though I don't think that possible unless I max out my "wrestling" skill and fight all kinds of opponents. My question is, can unarmed combatants ever be a decent match against someone with, say, a battleaxe? I can always roleplay that I'm darting around someone's back and ripping through their armor or finding an unarmored piece of flesh and striking it, but there is only so much you can do if the game itself doesn't support you that much.

So, to those who created this skill, is it really worth training, or will I constantly find myself outmatched? Mind you, I plan to wear armor, just like my opponents.

Thankers for your help,
PO Sess

Arameh · Post by **Arameh** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 3:02 am

I think wresling can becomne rather strong, you can see it with the wresling mummys (which are like 3x stronger than the dagger ones). At first, wresling is useless agaisnt an armed opponent. But im pretty sure it can become rather good when well trained, I heard learning the skill was making it faster, stronger for sure, and more accurate. It is harder to parry a double axe than to parry a good wresler ig im sure. But, if I would want a wresling character, I would assure that he can learn dodge, because of you are a wresler without dodge, you dont have much to defend yourself..

Garett Gwenour · Post by **Garett Gwenour** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 5:29 am

At the same time, how are fists, even claws going to penetrate thick steel salkamerian armor? Not likely, I am sure wrestling is powerful against leather, but if a Knight is wearing his tank armor and has a shield and sword, your dead meat.. lizard meat.

Sess'sth · Post by **Sess'sth** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 5:38 am

I wouldn't exactly expect to be ripping through someone's armor every fight, if ever. That was a mere example. In a normal fight, a wrestler would have to move fast enough to find an unarmored spot or some other weakness to bring down his/her opponent. And they'd need to throw a lot of punches, which could bend the opponent's armor and make them immobile or something. But if you've fine-tuned your skills enough, I would think you could own someone with just your fists. I just don't know if it's like that way technically.

Cliu Beothach · Post by **Cliu Beothach** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:23 am

Wrestling against a slow moving tank might prove somewhat efficient if you get him from behind.

Samantha Meryadeles · Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:16 pm

At the same time, how are fists, even claws going to penetrate thick steel salkamerian armor? Not likely, I am sure wrestling is powerful against leather, but if a Knight is wearing his tank armor and has a shield and sword, your dead meat.. lizard meat.

Wrestling is not just hitting with your hand. It is also kicks, and throws. A samurai wasn't just a masterfull swordfighter, they also learned martial arts. And that was not kicks, or punches. The samurai learned throws and grips. They threw heavy armored enemys to the ground. because this way they got hurt amazingly. Someone wearing heavy armor suffers great inner injuries when he gets thrown with his heavy armor to the ground.

So yes, martial arts can be very successfull against armored opponents. the heavy armor makes you less agile, you cant defend against the opponents grips. he grips you, throws you to the ground, and you are f***

Garett Gwenour · Post by **Garett Gwenour** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:32 pm

Considering Stephen at 6'6" and as muscular as I play him, he would weigh around 220 lbs already, add about another.. 100 to 120 pounds for his steel..
how will you throw around 340 lbs of strength? and at the same time, the warrior isnt standing still, he is either grappling with you are beating you with his shield as you struggle to get a good enough grip and footing to throw him.

please

Dónal Mason · Post by **Dónal Mason** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:37 pm

And the wrestler would generally be unhampered by 100 pounds of steel. Hell, if we wanted to he could just WALK AWAY. Besides, rather than a real throw, they'd use the weight of his body and armour to make him fall over. Then they'd tie you down and go get a tin opener.

Thariel Feuersturm · Post by **Thariel Feuersturm** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:38 pm

well, stephen, in rl i am practising martial arts. and this dates arent a problem. Do you know Aikido, Mordern Arnis or Jiu-Jitsu? Its easy, if you are a master and the other not.

Samantha Meryadeles · Post by **Samantha Meryadeles** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:42 pm

Thariel is right. The samurai invented a martial arts form that, like jiu-jitsu which is based on the samurai marttial arts, profits from the opponents weight. As more you weight, as easier it was, and as more damager was done to you in a throw.

Garett Gwenour · Post by **Garett Gwenour** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:42 pm

i would love to see that. honestly, a knight isnt a turtle in my armors, take lor angur. it is light but it is hard, he can move easily in it. And he has a sword. He isnt some test dummy you fight against in martial arts school, he is fighting back.
But I am just being realistic, make wrestling stronger or don't. In real life there is no chance at all for a master wrestling to be able to beat a master swordsman with protection and parry and dodge skills.

Lance Thunnigan · Post by **Lance Thunnigan** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:44 pm

Yes there is, MArtial Artists have all the things a Knight has besides large bulky armour and a sword. If the Martial Artist was very skilled, he could easily overcome the Knight.

Samantha Meryadeles · Post by **Samantha Meryadeles** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:44 pm

Wrong Garret...but maybe you just don't know enough of martial arts. And I don't speak of some kid doing martial arts in a school. I talk of well trained warriors of the medi evil ages, who fought to survive

Dónal Mason · Post by **Dónal Mason** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:45 pm

Yes. Yes there is. You see, there are a lot more factors in a real life fight than equipment, and your slashing, parry and dodge skills.

Nalzaxx · Post by **Nalzaxx** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:19 pm

Knights were trained killers just as Samurai were. They also had a number of unarmed martial skills that they learnt.

Just because he wears some plate does not make him a large dumb and inexperienced hunk of steel.

http://www.thehaca.com/essays/knightvs.htm

Lance Thunnigan · Post by **Lance Thunnigan** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:26 pm

Didn't say they were. We were stating facts about both of them.

Garett Gwenour · Post by **Garett Gwenour** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:33 pm

it is just easier to romanticize the idea of a lone wrestler beating a cliche knight.

Sess'sth · Post by **Sess'sth** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 8:29 pm

This has become an interesting subject, and seeing that no GM/Dev account has replied with much of anything, all we can rely on is what we know. I was more asking about the technical side of things, I don't know if I could ever overcome an armored warrior because the game simply might not let me. But on the other hand, the possibilities are endless - just look at David and Goliath, anything can happen. I just don't know if the client will work how I imagine it to, to make wrestling somewhat balanced. After all, the client determines the main limits to our power ingame. There is only so much we can do roleplay-wise to work around the technical difficulties.

So, as I wait for a GM to say anything, let's keep up the debate! It's fun.

Retlak · Post by **Retlak** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:27 pm

Martial arts is useless. In a real fight, the andrenalin pumps up, you forget your name and what your doing, and you just swing random punches.

Dónal Mason · Post by **Dónal Mason** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:37 pm

The same could be set about swordfighting. OMG TEH ADRENALINE! It makes you swing your sword randomly!

Martial arts are also about CONTROL. DUH.

Hermie · Post by **Hermie** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 10:20 pm

It's the lack of control that can make you lose a fight. (if its hand to hand combat) you're not thinking, they are, block your wild flailing attacks, and kick you square in the nuts.

Martial arts now are not like they were in the Medieval times mind you.

If you're wearing heavy armour, lose balance and fall, chances are you wont be getting up in a hurry, then with a dagger you can stab to a gap in the armour, maybe around the neck. Then again, if you're not wearing armour and you get hit by a sword you're just as screwed.

Sess'sth · Post by **Sess'sth** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 1:12 am

While we're at it:

I know it would in real life, but does wearing gloves add damage to your punches ingame?

Arameh · Post by **Arameh** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 2:18 am

It is a fact, an armored and armed person as more chances than a wresler in a real fight. Sure, some wreslers could have trained all their lives, and be able to overcome a trained fighter, everything can happen. But it requires MUCH MORE training. And the point aboit weight from garrett isnt bad, try getting down someone being 300 lb, striking at you wit his sword and blunting his shield at your head. An armored fighter in RL does not strike SLOWLY, armors werent made random, they were giving a good mobility to arms, just getting close to someone skilled holding a weapon was insane. We arent in some movies where big fighters are slowass and small ones are mega ninjas that can run around the opponent 4x before he can turn back. Armored opponents WALKS SLOW, but they dont hit slowly. Wresling to me, should only be any good when the skill is very high, and mainly good agaisnt unarmored opponents.

Samantha Meryadeles · Post by **Samantha Meryadeles** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 2:20 am

And the point aboit weight from garrett isnt bad, try getting down someone being 300 lb, striking at you wit his sword and blunting his shield at your head.

Thats what you train in jiu-jitsu and Aikido

. exactly that. blocking a swordattack, and using the swordswingers strength, weight and power against himself

Garett Gwenour · Post by **Garett Gwenour** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 2:21 am

i would love for a master in whatever skill try to face off with a master swords man with a claymore.

Thariel Feuersturm · Post by **Thariel Feuersturm** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 2:27 am

if you want we can talk, whats the best martial arts...

I have praticed Win Tsun, Mordern Arnis, Jiu Jitsu, Thai Boxing, but i couldnt say, whats the best. Every human has his own ability. And you misunderstand us. If you are a grandmaster in sword and fighting against a grandmaster in martial arts, the grandmaster in sword will have the same chances like the grandmaster of marcial arts.

Do you know, why i was learning so much different arts?

Because, if you cant fight well as aikidoka, you arent able to know, what teh other will do. And if you ever never have had a sword in your hand or observed a swordsman, you dont know, what the other want to do.

Thats it.

Mark Strongarm · Post by **Mark Strongarm** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 8:55 am

I like the idea of how much the skill is mastered being more important than the skill being used... as for what grounds one fighting skill may be considered better than another... that would require a large survey of master knights against master martial artists that I doubt has been done.. I'm thinking it would be harder to train as a martial artist and be effective. Is it outrageous to think it would take at least 5 years to train to be decent in martial arts? Would a giant man with armor and a sword easily destroy anyone without those qualifications, with very minimal training?

-details, details,... first we'll need to be able to learn skills again..