I got to thinking - Yes, it hurts......

[Wanderer]

Okay, prepare yourself for a really long post.

Alright, i have thought of a way to make the game more roleplaying and not quite a hack and slash game. I think that All characters should be required to choose a profession when creating a new character, those with characters already made would have to pick one. Once a character has chosen a professions, whether it is blacksmithing, carpentry, etc. they can only do that one "job". This would be the there craftmanship skills. It would not then  be just a carpentry skill for instance, but you can branch off from it and under Carpetnty have like bootmaking, glovemaking, etc. Or a blacksmith has swords, axes, maces, shields, armor, helms, etc. This means they have to work a really long time to max out each subgroup, and would not be able to make master equipment in a short time. As there skill in these subgroups increase they would learn new things, like from cloth boots to leather boots to steeltoed boots and so on each level offering better protection/attack then the previous. Now if every person was only able to do one skill, they would have to rely on other people with different craftmanships to get there tools. For instance a carpenter could be the only one able to make boots for people so that is how they make money, but they couldn't make anything without a needle from a blacksmith, while the blacksmith couldn't make anything without materials from miners. This would mean that everyone would have to rely on others to accomplish things. Now everyone would have extra supplies obviously, but then they could sell these surplus supplies to a Npc, or a real character, which i will get into later.

The ability of a person to make stuff should have to be based on something, and perception and willpower would be it. For instance, a person with the minimum perception would only be able to do the most menial work, like peasantry for their profession. Since it is so simple they would only be able to sell there supplies for the minimum amount of money so they would mean they would have to work and work to make enough money to buy good weapons and armor and supplies from others. Now a person with high perception would be able to do the more difficult crafts, like blacksmithing, and this could mean they would be able to in a sense make a little more money. If a person has high stats in perception, they can't max out there dex, con, str, and agil and be superhuman fighters,  this would mean they  could outfit themselves with better equip but have lower stats to fight with so they can balance out a little.  if they have low perception they would be able to be great fighters, but be so poor they couldn't outfit themselves with the top equipment and be invincible.

This is how leaders could be made. A rich man would in theory be a really weak fighter, but could higher others with great fighting skills( peasants) to fight for him. He could supply them with the best equipment and keep supplying it as it breaks, and be there main source of income. THis would make good individual leaders, or if groups of people team up and combine there individual skills, make great and properous guilds.

Okay this is where durability comes in. If a item is allowed to last forever a person never has to earn enough money again to keep the top of the line stuff. But if the weapon breaks after so many uses a person has to either work there ass off to make enough or they have to settle for weaker stuff that always needs replacing. I think that we should be able to check a items use, description, durability, and stats( attack, defense, parry, etc.)  by right clicking the item so we know when the weapon is almost gone. If items have to be continuoulsy replaced then the need for the carpenter, blacksmith, and miner, etc. will always be needed. This is supply and demand ( hehehe, i new goverment class would come in hand some day). Each weapon should have a certain amount of durability it takes away from itself and others armor as it hits. A fist shouldn't take away any because it is free and extremely fast, while a sword takes away medium amount of durability with medium damage, while a punture weapon takes away lots or durability but as really low attack against armored foes.

Alright, now we should have regular players to sell the surplus supplies to , who could be greedy bankers that would decide the price for certain items. This could be a great roleplaying chance, because a person would not be able to just walk up and say " i got 1000 boots, give me 5000 gp". They would have to interact with the banker to get better price, or the banker could pay less or not pay at all. This would be player interaction, and if the banker decides a peasant doesn't deserve a certain amount for ther work then the peasants would then have a reason to rebel and start a bloodbath, and this would be roleplaying. The real player bankers would have to be responsible though, someone who would not just screw with one profession, but would spread it around at key points to get some action started. there should be several so that there is always a chance to sell.

Now more difficult work shouldn't mean you still only need one of each product to make something. A blacksmith shouldn't be able to make a plate armor for 6 gp with only 1 ore and coal. They should need like 6 of each and get a little more gp.  A easier job like peasantry would take less material, so they can make more to sell, but they sell for less. It means people can make a living, but some have a advantage over others.

Okay almost done. Now i couldn't think of what to use willpower for. Maybe it could be how long they are able to fight. Or how much they are able to produce in there profession. A person with high willpower can last a long time in a fight and work nonstop, but higher willpower means less perception and stats for fighting, so balance is kept. A new bar should be added so we can see how much is left, like between the read and blue one. Maybe we should be able to have more points to distribute when creating.

Okay, thats all i can remeber for now. I still have ideas that i think i might have forgot. I'm not all that stupid for those of you who think so, i'm actually quite smart when i'm not killing and cussing.I would appreciate it if all the following posts were for additional ideas and not other crap

BROR, you never really respond to my posts, but least say a couple words so i know you actually listen to players ideas. Like "your a stupid ass" or "damn you have to much free time". Something!!!

[Wanderer]

Fogot one thing. The other skills catagory should be like hobbies. Everyone should be able to fish without it being there main job. These hobbies shouldn't be able to directly affect a persons success in the game, but a way to spend extra time between there work driven lives. Some other skills could be fishing, apple/cherry picking, Boating ( oh yeah, we need boats!!), and others.

[Wanderer]

Damn! last thing. These other skills should also allow people to get more things as they improve. A fisherman starts out with catching perch which only heal a little and sell for nothing, then catches trout which heal more but still worthless, to trout that heal even more and sell for a Little bit. Same with apples. And if boating is ever possible, they can sail farther which each level.(if boat doesn't break and they drown before a carpenter with a high enough carpentry is found to fix it).

[Captain Kirk]

Hallo

hmm interestin ideas i think
hehe to punish the powerbodies is good

subskills could be nice for a good worker maybe we will get subskills for fightin too (weapons he is very good with swords but bad with axe and so on)

and perception will be good for findin traps too
and will power is good for a man with no clothes in a snow storm or so

Bye
Read ya
MfG

Capt. Kirk

[Farlorn]

I like these ideas

Willpower by the way could be used for magic resistance, too, and perhaps there should be a chance, depending on your willpower, that a very hard hit in a fight will force you to rest one round, beforer you're able to fight back.

Then I think there should be a time component in raising your skill, too. It should not be possible to do "extreme-blacksmithing" for about 2 hours and have maxed skills then. Let's say every skill can rise for about 1/6 a day or so, so you still need a week to max and powergaming is less effective.

Farlorn

[Damien]

Most of this are great ideas, yes. But most have already been discussed several times. It would be not very realistic if you can learn only one profession...
In fact, in medieval times, people weren't able to specialize too much. For example, a simple soldier had to know how to repair and handle  armor and weapon - his own equipment. A noble knight had to be a knave before getting into his "job"... knaves learnt to care for horses, feed and cure them, and to do several other works. So every knight had to know these "jobs" too.
The specialisation is a great idea, yes - but everyone in real life can and has to learn / understand different things.
A solution would be, one could learn several first learned skills easily, and when one skill goes near maximum, it would take more time for other skills to increase. If a second skill is high, it would take a bit more time.
Note that, if you learn several skills, they all increase quite quick to a certain point. (ground knowledge). After this point, it gets harder to learn them. The more skills are over this point, the harder the learning will be.
Skills may have different difficulties. For example, digging is very easy.
There is only a problem with magic users : They need to know many skills (runes). So perhaps the runes must be handled special - and druid skills (and later priest skills) too. That would mean, if you know more runes, it would be harder to learn other things. If you start late with the learning of the runes (after reaching high fighting skills and some craftmanship) you will learn the runes quite slowly.
And, how you distribute your attributes, surely affects the use of skills. I myself have real problems getting my skills (except for magic) over a certain point. I guess the reason lies in the attributes. So it takes me very much time training my fighting skills. My only other good skill is blacksmithing (and mining, for smiths really need that at the moment). So, i buy all other things from others.

It would increase the buying of clothes and boots if they could be worn out(only when used!!! not in inventory) with some time (perhaps about ten to twenty hours of playing time) but for this graphics for "old boots" and "old clothes" would be needed. High quality clothes may perhaps be used for a ten times longer period, or even longer. And, good tailors may repair them...
The making of high quality one-use-items can increase trade too. Imagine priests and mages making one-use-scrolls with (bought) paper. These scrolls would be the way for non-magic-users to cast some spells.
Priests could perhaps make one-use- holy items, like incense or stuff... who knows ?
The specialisation on "jobs" from the begining would have all disadvantages of a very static single-class-system. And imagine the following situation : many persons need different stuff - and the "maker profession" is not wel liked among players. So the most people would simply make an extra character for this profession. That may perhaps disturb both roleplay and gameflow, since many people can not seperate their characters. And it would make many used names lol..

[Captain Kirk]

Halllo

but i fear players do it already and have a magic char and thier privat druid and so on

yep a single prof sys is toooo borin and needs much more players

Bye
Read ya
MfG

Capt. Kirk

[Raziel]

How a about every character can do a little bit of everything but have to choose what profesion they want to master. SO they can only master one skill such as black smithing, Carpentry, fighting

[Wanderer]

Yeah, maybe They can do everything under a cetain profession, but only weak stuff for all the other professions. this way you would still need the help of other players to get the best stuff, but you could still survivie without them.

Damien, it may that knights in the old days had to be able to do very simple things that needed to be done in a variety of fields, but they were by far not the master of everything they did. If people had to rely on others for stuff then there would be much more player interactions and not just a simple make stuff and kill type game. It should not be possible in any way for people to master every area of skills, even if they devote half their life because then it means that the game does not require you to cooperate with others, and i constantly hear from people that there needs to be roleplay. You commented on how people may not like the person they need stuff from, but this also is more good then bad. It would make it possible for people to be evil, in this case greedy, and this would start some trouble that has a reason. If you can think of any other way for people to have a justifiable, and roleplay hostility, post it.

[Damien]

You're right, that's my opinion too. A person who invests MUCH time may be able to master several skills. But not all.
For investing much time, one must be rewarded. But, it must get harder if you already have mastered something other...
This discussion has been made over and over again. Just let the game masters time to test some system variations. They will need it.
There are several things not able to be done now, but may perhaps come : Pottery, animal taming, boat building, building of siege engines... you will perhaps need several of the skills we have now to complete such a task. And i think we can be quite sure that a person who has all skills trained to make all stuff for boat-making, for example, will have very few capacity left to learn other things - so one will surely have to learn several few things, and rely on others to make the other needed things. The more skills come, the less you can concentrate on. And, i just guess there will come many new ones within this year. Illarion is full of development. Systems that match now, may not fit in perhaps three months.
Just give the programmers some time, and let's make more well-thought ideas for them to look at =)

[Bror]

I don't want to limit someone in his skills because of his profession. A solution for professions would be, to define skill maximums for the diffeent categories (e.g. Mage= 30% craftsman, 40% druid, 100% magic, 20% fighting...). But how about a peasants son, that is learning the wizards profession? He would not be able to have a high peasantry skill.
The possibility I favor at the moment is the following:
A profession is defined by:
- a set of skill gain rates for each skill group (i.e. fighting skills rise 3 times slower than normal, magic skills normal...)
- in case of magician/druid/bard... the main magic realm, they can learn all runes/herbs/tunes
- every profession can learn runes, herbs AND tunes to a certain amount. This amount could be keyed to intelligence (e.g. a fighter with intelligence 5 can learn magic too. He can choose 5 runes, that he wants to use - there are 32 components in each realm)
- each profession has a set of starting equipment (craftsmen: hammer, shovel; fighter:sword,shield....)

This system is supposed to have these effects:
- magic is very limited to non magic users (fighters, thieves, craftsmen)
- specialization on only some skills (you can max all skills in theory, because there is no limit to your skills, but its harder for the skills, you profession doesn't need and the skill decay will reduce them from time to time)
- one can learn from all realms of magic


The craft menues will be restructured, like the smithing: In low skill levels you will have a limited set of selections.

[Antarion]

In my own pen-and-paper RPG I deal with professions in this way:
Every profession has a different time of apprenticeship. After this time, you start with specific skill-bases. This represents the average skill of a person that has done his time under a teacher. You get also an amount of points to spend over this specific skills, related to that profession, representing personal interests.
After that time, you develop skills by using them, or learning new things.
I think, this is the best way between professional limitations and free-developing characters.

[Damien]

Hmmm, skill loss with time will only lead to training and reduces roleplay. Skill loss when dying is far enough.
Every viewable skill loss will make the players angry... perhaps such training thing can be realized about moving attributes ? (absolute minimum = starting values ) that are not seen. And things forgotten must not be learned totally new in real life too, only refreshed.

[Captain Kirk]

Hallo

what about subskill groups (like smithin: blacksmithin and goldsmithin) if u r very good at bs u will get a bonus for gs and vice versa it eould be fine for fightin (swords and staffs aso) and maybe magic (but not yet coz to less spells)

hmm i think u should have a min int  to cast like 7 and than u can only low level spells and cant max them coz with the help of pots u can cast like a power mage and thats strange a humanor liz with int 4 cast more than an elf with int 16

hmm bror what about warlocks or paladins ?? it is tooo hard if they cant learn fightin faster than a mage or merchant

and skilldecay for longtime not usin a skill (craft and weapons) is ok (if u dont smith for a long time u arent a master anymore u have to train to restore ur mastership but not so long like one who never was a master)

Bye
Read ya
MfG

Capt. Kirk

(Edited by Captain Kirk at 4:47 pm on May 15, 2001)

[Damien]

Yes, but longtime must not be too long time and not too short... i think the range of about ten to twenty hours playing time can be okay.

[Farlorn]

how about this idea:

While your skills rise it gets slower and slower. It doesn't matter which skill you're training. So at first when you have no skills at all, they will rise very fast. But if you already have good skills at mining and blacksmithing, your fighting skills will rise considerably slower, and then if you try to learn carpentry too, sometimes it will get really really slow.
In this way you can choose if you max SOME skills or you learn more skills on a more moderate level.

For the programmers, Bror, this would mean that everyone has skillpoints (there is no need for, but may be a maximum) to spend. With each skillpoint that is spent, the next one needs a little more "effort". There can be a differentation between "fighting skillpoints", "craftmanship skillpoints", etc but I like it better with overall skillpoints and you just need e.g. twice the amount of them to max a fighting skill than to max a craftmanship skill. When more skills are added later, you can just decrease the "slow down effect" to make the system fit again.

think about it

Farlorn

[Bror]

@Farlon: The problem is, that not all skills are equal.
Parry for instance is very important, but imagine we introduce a skill like rope making. Both would slow other skill increase down. That way no one would go for the new profession.