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Armor and Wepons break way to easily, as so they drop quality at a very fast rate. I just had some Slightly scraped silversteel and in the same day i got it, it broke while i was in the mummies cave. Personally Gabon does not have the money and i dont have the time it takes to get the money for armor to break so easily. I once went threw two double axes in a matter of about an hour. I have a very good used doulbe axe that when i killed about 5 mummies the quality droped so instead of verg good used i had very good corroded. If this is how its suppost to be then fine but we need some kind of reparing system if thats how it is going to be. dont quote me on this but i believe that in midevil times they had one set of armor they used, when it cracked they had it fix, only time they would change armor is if they wanted new/better armor. This is probably going to sound like another bitching player and it sort of is but i would like to hear everyones thoughts on this matter.

What troubles me is the balance between weapons and armor: While armor lasts quite long, weapons break in no time. This lowers the value of weapons and I doubt anyone will spend lots of coppers to purchase a weapon.

A fixing system is not the way to go, for a simple reason: To maintain balance, you'd have to make the weapons wear off even faster. Otherwise, you'd have everlasting weapons and this would destroy the demand for new weapons, a clean slap into the face of every smith.

Yeah I agree, but since there is no parry, things breaks hella fast, mainly for strong fighters I think (cause they hit harder or something, about weapons). I wanted to go train to the skeletons down the mummy cave, I had a staff (which should be a defensive weapon) and a leather armor from the mummys, the rest was metal stuff I was wearing. That full leather armor is bad, but not that much, before it could last rather long. I got down the stairs, then 3 skeletons got at me, I fought them with my staff, my armor broke after I, kill one of them and i had to leave cause they were sinking my healt bar, since my very high parry skill seems useless now. Mummys dosent train me at all, and im not gonna buy very good armors each times I want to go train, no one will. It was much better when parry was there, armor quality was alright, weapons relatively ok, pvp was alright, it just needed some changes, but now everything is fucked up, and I aint the only one to think that.

Perhaps a repair system should be introduced, but as the item is repaired, it loses quality. Let's say an item has condition points and quality points.

If the condition is at 1, and the quality is at 9, and the object is repaired, it would gain condition and lose quality based on the skills and stats of the person doing it. A complete novice may do more harm than good, lowering the quality by a lot while not improving the condition at all.

As Estralis already said, introducing a repair system may be possible but would make the current, rather easy to tweak, system a balancing nightmare.

The simple solution to the, also in my opinion too fast, weapon breaking is to make them break less.
There is no need to indroduce a whole new system that iself needs to be balanced and balanced with all other established systems.

Everything you would accomplish with creating repairable weapons is to flood the market with tons of items and make them again worthless.

Arameh_ wrote:but since there is no parry

Oh my god, and I thought you were playing Illarion!
Which game is it you played, you should inform their developers that they forgot to implement parrying blows.

Martin

I did not meant 0 parry, I meant not enought to do anything with it with any weapons else than with shields. Parrying 1/6 times mummys with a nearly maxed parry and and staff, and a not too bad tactic, I find it bad.

Edit : My New elven mage's staff became slightly scratched elven mage's staff after 6 mummys, and I have a smithing skill, and I can evaluate quality pretty well.

To bring this discussion on a promising route, what do you think, how many blows should a medium quality & durability weapon deliver without breaking in average? What about a high quality / low durability one?

Quality high, durability high: X blows
Quality high, durability medium: X blows
Quality high, durability low: X blows

Quality medium, durability high: X blows
Quality medium, durability medium: X blows
Quality medium, durability low: X blows

Quality low, durability high: X blows
Quality low, durability medium: X blows
Quality low, durability low: X blows

Note: The durability changes, the quality is constant.

Estralis Seborian wrote:To bring this discussion on a promising route, what do you think, how many blows should a medium quality & durability weapon deliver without breaking in average? What about a high quality / low durability one?

Quality high, durability high: X blows
Quality high, durability medium: X blows
Quality high, durability low: X blows

Quality medium, durability high: X blows
Quality medium, durability medium: X blows
Quality medium, durability low: X blows

Quality low, durability high: X blows
Quality low, durability medium: X blows
Quality low, durability low: X blows

Note: The durability changes, the quality is constant.

I would say around...

600
400
200

450
200
150

300
200
100

Thats what I think should be around that. It seems to be big numbers, but if you hit once each 2 seconds it takes not that long to break a weapon.

Might sound a tad extreme:

1000
500
250
-
400
200
100
-
100
50
25
=
The good quality I would immagine, would be the kind that a family would 'pass on for generations'
The rubbishy stuff would have already been half destroyed

=
Added: I would make weaker enemies effect your weapon less.. .: A noob will be able to afford the weapons, but he wouldn't be able to take on something strong.

Immagine it as trying to hit somethign soft, or trying to kill something with armor...

Ehh I thike that thinking...but in reality no matter how many times a warrior takes a bastard sword through a mummie or a war hammer into a mace.....barely any damage will be done.

Arameh_ wrote:
but since there is no parry


Oh my god, and I thought you were playing Illarion!
Which game is it you played, you should inform their developers that they forgot to implement parrying blows.

Martin

Don't kid yourself Martin....Parry with a two-handed is like turining lead to gold. Very hard and as I said befor very unrealistic.

How I understand the weapon taking damage thing:

Here are some more practical examples.

EXTREMLY BAD QUALITY: You were in the midst of a battle, and you grabbed this weapon off a creature which had been using it for ages. If undead, the weapon would have been crafted with less technology, and half rotted with the creature. You know its only going to be good for a few hits
MODERATE QUALITY: Mass produced for battles. Example in case of a war, all able fighters are given a sword, and this is passed on to each of them; somethign the blacksmiths made quickly. Its going to last that battle, but not much longer afterwards.
GOOD QUALITY: The smith produced this one for you personally. Like the swords of the vikings, you could actually give it a name, and you know that its going to last till you die with it in your hand.
EXTREME QUALITY: [Should be reserved for SPECIAL things] A legendary weapon, which will take massive abuse, yet still retain its beauty and power. You could pass it on for generations and generations. Would have to be made using special things (example jewels to decorate, a bit of gold here and there)

Armor shouldn't break so easy. If you're going to trust it with your life, then I doubt that you'd change it once every few days. In RL, some warriors used to see their armor like their soul. [Example in the poem "Hortius", where he dives across the tiber with fullarmor].
Armor should survive anything you throw at it, and only be destroyed when the person dies, (in which case the person would have been killed through the armor, .: no good any more). Also, unarmed fighting shouldn't damage armor, because you wont dent metal with your hands, and anyway; you're wrestlign with the enemy, not attempting to punch a hole through him.

Armor and weapons are too expensive; 15 silvercoins for Lor Ankur isn't rare. There is too much losses for the blacksmith (as in ingots), and an average waraxe costs for 200-250 coins, for average quality. .: The fighter knows that he has to kill enough enemies to get 200-250 coins back. Staves I used to sell (with eliron) at circa 75 coins for bad quality, which is still hard to get back.

IMHO, a GOOD weapon should last for MASSIVELY long times, its a good weapon which will serve you a lot. Rubbishy weapons should be allowed to decompose faster.

I agree compleatly with Hadrian here. I think Armor should not break unless the wearer is killed, also the wepons when in such good quality should be abel to take an immence ammout of beating. Of course price would reflect the quality of the armor and the wepon but if you only need one or two then people can actually afford them. Gabon doesnt have the money to buy new armor after every fight, that is whats happening now, i take a trip to the mummy cript and i come out with broken armor and normally a broken double axe (which costs 4.5 silvers when a smith is not arround) An example of an extreamly well crafted wepon that should not break is the Fire axe, extream crafting skill is needed to make these so i believe they should not break.

Well, every weapons should break after a time...but yeah, excellent and rare weapons should last ages, as does armors. Currently, I break my very good new battle staff in one training, and they are rather costly. For the price, maybe lowering the failing would fix a lot of things, very good smiths still lose mega amount of ingots to make armors, im sure Salathe could use 2000 ingots in a week, most ingots getting lost. I mainly agree with Hadrian about quality, armors should last ages, maybe not indestructible, bur nearly. But quality of armors is lowering quickly since the change with parry has been made, since most hits gets right on our chest instead of getting parryied, so when fighting system is balanced, it should be better tha currently...

How do you create a demand when you want to have items "last for ages" ?

Keep in mind that there is still the other side, not only yours.
Producing characters still need to be able to sell thier items to players and not only make a Player->NPC trade for income.

I said for excellent quality stuff

and they can, what i am saying is for the worriors with great skill. They should not be the ones buying crappy armor that breaks in one session of training. I recently bought 3 silversteal plates, within a time of about 4 days all three were broken, i did no major training, i when to the cripts to collect about 30 threads. The silversteels were all slightly scratched or better. Silversteel is one of the best armors is it not? there is no way it should break that quickly. Also (sort of off subject) Gabon is an axe fighter, always has been, but now am being told that since i didnt get my dodge up very high, i take more hits than ever. For example i used to give Stephen and Salathe a good run for their money if not beat them using my double axe, now they dont get a scratch while i have to jump back within a few hits, it doesnt make sence to me how an orc, who has been a worrior since the begining can all of the sudden go weak because he doesnt have skills that have just been make useful. Personlly i dont know how to train dodge and i am glade because if i did know i would be accused of PGing. What i am saying its its unballanced in many ways, old worriors like Gabon who have been arround for a long time are at a huge dissatvantage with the skill unballance and the rate of armor and wepon breakage

This is because of the parry, now only shield fighting is any efficient, its supposed to get changed soon...

could we see the current values for these?

Quality high, durability high: X blows
Quality high, durability medium: X blows
Quality high, durability low: X blows

Quality medium, durability high: X blows
Quality medium, durability medium: X blows
Quality medium, durability low: X blows

Quality low, durability high: X blows
Quality low, durability medium: X blows
Quality low, durability low: X blows

would make it alot easier if we know what we are working onto

thats already been said...i think exactly like that...

i was asking what the current values are for those, not asking for what people think they should be

oopsies

Demand...

15 silver coins for armor... high price low demand. Axes at medium quality cost 250 coins (salathe)... high price, low demand.

There won't be a demand unless prices are lowered, that means a change in the crafting system...

I don't think smiths need to get rich THAT fast... and where are the fighters going to get the cash anyway?

Keikan Hiru wrote:How do you create a demand when you want to have items "last for ages" ?

Keep in mind that there is still the other side, not only yours.
Producing characters still need to be able to sell thier items to players and not only make a Player->NPC trade for income.

now you know how the goldsmiths feel.