Illarion.org

Okay, here is the new topic about the town council project ...

If you want to get more information read this:
http://pc-cad0.informatik.unibw-muenche ... 3&start=58

Now ... let's continue discussion ... :biggrin:

What power will council wiil have? And we be there any other (or secondary) powers?


thats all i think for now!

Propose something ...

I think 5 members sounds very good.
Have you got an idea how to organize the election, Neon?
In game or via email? Or in the forum?

What powers the council will have depends on acceptance I think....
Not everybody will accept the council thats sure.

But in general its a good idea
It makes Troll's Bane (is that now the official town name?) a bit more "living", I think.
Even if it doesn work....

But hwo can we finanze the council?
taxes ? maybe....
but normally town council should get the money for sold real estates...
who else should get it?

we'll find a way

Hmm, first I thought we can make the vote ingame, but at the moment I think mailing the vote would be more suitable.

About the power:
I think my person cannot set the power the council will have. So I want you to think about it and post your comments here. Only if we all (here on the board) find a solution, the acceptance will be on a fair level. Btw the acceptance will also depend on the charisma of the person.

IMO "Troll's Bane" is the official name as far as nobody voted against this name!

What finances does the council need at the moment? We don't need a town hall. The council can use the library including the separate room in the 2nd floor.

If they decide to build a temple they have to think about where to get the money. Maybe a donation collection can help here. But you can't implement taxes cause not every player is always online. And many don't have money.

The first main thing to do is to vote an accepted town council including five people. These people are allowed to set up the first laws considering the town and the nearer surrounding. These laws are official! There should be implemented a punishment in the laws as well. Maybe the town council can set up kind of town guards ... to save the laws

Just some ideas ...

do you see a need for quotas like one Orc and one Lizard etc.?
because as it is NOW there is only this ONE town but there should be some differences between the needs of the orcish inhabitants and e.g. the humans.
If this is indeed a point you want to consider, so 5 counsilors seem too few, right?

think about it

Farlorn

The main problem of the council probably is its acceptance and its methods to establish a law. A law doesn't do any good if noone keeps to it. So the council would somehow need a task force or a group of strong warriors who will watch the city and force the people to keep to the laws.
Another way to handle this problem would be if some guilds are responsible for watching the law in the city but this would also somehow mean that the guilds must have the possibility to alter or even reject proposed laws. So it would be something like a council where (some) guilds have a fixed seat.

Hmm, maybe we should organize it that way:

We should split it up in three parts:

1) The Town Council
2) The Guild Council
3) The Town Guards

The Town Council consists of the 5 members which were voted by the people.

The Guild Council consists of one member (leader or representative) of each guild. These guilds MUST be registered on the Illarion page (so it must have a homepage!). It also has to have more than 10 members! (this is to prevent that everyone can get a place in the council just by founding a guild!) Maybe the amount of members should be discussed!

The Town Guards is a group of people who tries to keep the law.  The members were voted only by the Town Council to prevent influence by the guilds. Only people who have proved their loyality will be accepted as Town Guard. About giving them money for their work should be discussed (the council doesn't have any money at the moment). But it's a honour to be part of the town guard, maybe that's enough. The Town Guards also have a leader AND a co-leader which will both be part of of the council.


Okay, now the new Council will consist of:
5 voted members
5 guild members
2 guard members

Laws are discussed and decided by all members together. The Town Guards are responsible that the people keep the law. They are the only one who are allowed to use weapon and magic inside the town (although this law is still unwritten, but I think it's a good law!)

Maybe the guild members should pay something for their membership in the Town Council so that it has some money for their activity.

Just more ideas ... what do you think about it?

btw ... Farlorn, what do you mean with the differences between the races? I think a dwarf eats bread as well as a lizard. And a humand can smith as well as a orc.
There's not such a big difference between the races at the moment. So I don't think there's a need for special quotas in the Council ... IMO the acceptance is important, not the race. And a well accepted human also thinks about the needs of a lizard or an orc!

so we have at least 12 members... thats much!
try to get 12 members to one place and make decicions...hmm no!
even trying to have a majority present will be a problem..
you also have the problem that the number of guilds = seats isnt constant

but perhaps we could handle it this way:
3 members town council (elected)
+ 1 representative of the guilds
+ 1 representative of the churches

the voting of the representative must be handled within their sectors
so for example the leader of the orde, the titans, the shadowen empire etc. com together and choose on guy to represent the guilds for 2 weeks or one month...
the church sector ist that important now...but I think it will be in the future

If the guard leader is elected by the town council he/she dont need to ahve a seat...(my opinion)

problem i see in this version is: Will each the churches and the guilds manage it to choose one of them to join the council?

The thing with the church seat is the same like the one with the seats for the guilds: I don't like them! Why should they get their seat for nothing? They also can be elected as well. They have just to proove their acceptance! I mean why should someone of the murderers guild get a place in the council when everybody hates them for his deeds? He wouldn't be accepted at all. And maybe he influences the laws to the positive for his guild. NO, NOT THAT WAY!

Okay, I keep my opinion with the 5 elected members! No one more!

But there's still one problem missing ... the town guards. But IMO the town council could decide about the guards in its first session!

OK, here's a completely different variante I like better:

I think the chances for a medieval world like illarion to have a democracy with the same right for everyone are rather small (if there are ). As the way with a King and nobles etc. doesn't seem to be playable in a game like illarion I propose a kind of plutocracy. This means the rulership of the riches... I thought rulership of the ones with influence but didn't find another word *g*.
So my proposal is: if a guild wants to set a law they will have to negotiate with the other guilds. When they think a majority that can enforce this law is found they make the law public (a section on this homepage would be needed I think) and build their own taskforce to prevent brakings of the law. In this way, there would be a conflict between the guilds, too. Because the "murderers guild" as Neon called it would have a different opinion of law and order than the order or the knight's circle may have. Of course this dark guild can set their own laws, too, but if they don't have much acceptance, noone would follow these.
And then, the people that aren't in a guild... of course they seem to be kept out, but when one has a good idea for a law he can always psopose it (on the board for example or directly to a guild) and if it is good, I'm sure one or two guilds will take the idea and try to make a treaty with other guilds to make it effective law.
Writing these lines, another point entered my brain (yes still some place left *g*):
What if a dark guild would forbid mining near the city and kill newbies with this excuse? Hmmm
so I think the first topic for the bigger guilds to discuss will be to make a law that prevents this and that would make this dark guild criminal and allow their own task forces to treat the "guild PKs" like any PK should be treated I don't think it would make a real difference to the PKs we have now.

what do you, especially the guild responsibles think about that? would it be possible to manage or is the inter-guild-contact too small?

think about it

Farlorn

Hmm ... but aristocracy (as written above) is the base for guild wars!

And in my opinion the acceptance of voted candidates is bigger than the acceptance of the rich people in Illarion! Or do you think the rich share their money with the poorer ones? *lol*

But as I see there are not many people interested in a Town Council cause of the few answers to this thread ... it just was an idea to treat the problem which occur at the moment.

I think the point of Farlorns post is that guilds would be able to force citizens to keep to the laws through their members.
What would be good for the acceptance of the council is if it's obvious to everyone why we need one. So we should define what it is for and give good examples.
Personally I can only think of the "no magic"-rule in the city at the moment. This would be a good law from my point of view.
Hm another idea just came to my mind. What if the council could decide or at least have a vote in the appearance of the town. This includes:
-) Everyone who wants to build a house/shop/anything else needs the permission of the council.
-) The council has the right to talk to gms about certain objects like depots. I know that depots more than other objects are and will be an issue of different interests, that's why I only said that the council has a right to a say in a matter. But if the council should be able to do anything its voice must be heared. So if the council decides that one should be able to chop the trees in front of the shop, a gm should really remove the hedges. You know what I mean I think.
-) Maybe the council is asked about new things implemented from the programmer team if they directly affect the city?

That's all I can think of at the moment...

good ideas , i think.

town guards?

maybe they could be GMs and trustworthy players given some powerful weapon or something?
they could act as Judges between clans and players (settling clanwars and figths)

they could also prevent figthing in the city and nearby , they could make it safe for all. ALL!

An interesting discussion.
A council must be organized. But every council needs a power behind it, or else, all people would just not care about it.
So, this power cannot only be the mass. Every organisation of a number of people could easily outwit this council.
To prevent this, the idea with the guild representations would be a good tool. A group that has interests within this council, as any guild would have, will support this council with a lot of manpower. Guards could be chosen from guild members as well as from public people who have proved worthy.
To exclude the guilds from this council, would automatically lower the chance of their help to the guards, and to the election from guild members to become guards. And if the council's opinion and a guild's opinion collide, such an opposing guild, without interests in the council itself, would just lower the guard's and council's efficiency by acting against them, more or less agressive.

This problem will be solved by the representation of the guilds in the town.

My idea would be like this : Not ONE council, but Two.

- One public council
  consisting of public elected members. NO GUILD LEADERS should be allowed to be in this council.

- One guild council
  consisting of ONE representant from all guilds. Every "legal", that means lawful or neutral
  guild must have one representative, and a second one who can "jump in" when the first
  one cannot participate in a meeting. Only ONE guild representative from each guild can
  participate council at a time, so every guild has one vote.

The "Major", that means representative of the public council, will be an elected person from the members of the public council. He will speak to the guild council too, and can choose advisor(s) from the guild's council.

When a public relevant thing, law, or something else is discussed in the PUBLIC council, they can vote there (against or for it ). Then, the major will go to the Guild council with the result. The guild council can either accept the thing, or throw in a "veto".
That means : If one Guild councellor is against the new law or decision, he can propose a veto. Then, the guild council will vote. If the majority is for a veto, the law or decision must be formed in another way, and then brought to the guild council again.
If the guild council votes FOR it, too, the new law or decision will be put to work with the council's power itself AND the guilds.


Illegal guilds, will be guilds who act against the law. Like for example, assassin - or thieve's guilds. These could form an underground council themselves, but will not be accepted as legal guilds by the town council.
But, most high positioned thieves or assassins would just enter a merchant's guild or something like that, and perhaps can become council member, or public council member... As long as noone knows of their "illegal" activities, that is.

okay ... some things

- the voted council should have more power than the guild council
- town guards are still needed to protect the laws
- GMs are treated like normal players concerning the laws
- the town council can propose ideas to GMs, but not force them to do something for them
- the town guards don't get special weapons or a GM status at the moment
- the number of the guild council members should never be higher than the number from
 the voted council (so only the biggest guilds can participate OR a vote decides the guilds)

my 0.02 €

Yes. The guild council cannot MAKE laws or decision. It can only say "yes" or "no".
So the public one has more power automatically.
the guild council should consist of people from EVERY guild with MORE then 10 members.

(Edited by Damien at 7:15 pm on July 18, 2001)

Two additions:

1)
The guild council should consist of people from EVERY guild with MORE then 10 members which are official registered with their homepage on the Illarion page.

This should be no problem if they have their own homepage. And a bigger guild should always have one!

2)
The town council is always allowed to raise or lower the size of the guild council without needing their permission. The minimum number of members is 3. A specific quota can be set by the town council.

This is to prevent a too big guild council cause it is possible that there are hundreds of guilds in the future (think of UO!)

hmmmmm
I get to like the idea of the coucil

Especially Damiens idea of the guild council with veto right sounds very good.
But the elected council shouldn't be allowed to set the NUMBER of guilds in it. Better make it that way, that it can set the REQUIREMENTS for a guild to participate in it, because otherwise guilds with the same right to sit in the council will be closed out by drawing lots or so. To tighten up the requirements should be a way to make the guild council smaller, too.

Law enforcement will still be task for the guilds in first line... perhaps the guilds that have a seat in the guilds council have to pay a certain amount per month to pay a dedicated town guard that has voted people in it whose names are made public somewhere on this page. On the other hand these "policemen" should have to swear an oath that makes their actions (as policeman) independent from their actual guild (if they are in one) so that they are responsible only the voted council and their own conscience.

think about it

Farlorn

(Edited by Farlorn at 2:43 pm on July 19, 2001)

i think we need both:
guards payed and elected by the town council
+ support of the forces of the guilds

so the soldiers of the guilds can act as an additional support for the official town-guard
(so etwa wie die Bereitschaftspolizei in Deutschland...)

good idea, but the rights must be clear:
who is legal law enforcer and therefor has the right to use weapons/magic in town to keep up law. if that isn't clear anyone who is in one of the guilds could use them and that should not be allowed.

I like the idea from damien ...

if a member of a guild do anything againt the law  the guild must pay.
If the guildleader payed not the guild lost his guildcouncil sead.
it means the guildcouncil have a look at the towncouncil  and the towncouncil at the guildcouncil

I support Damiens proposal.
Has anyone already thought about the election itself? A board voting would not really be fair because one person could vote with all character he has.
So I would favor an in-game voting. Of course date and time will be published on the board some days before and the voting should probably take place on a week-end.

The Town council must not have too much power over the guild council ( i.e. setting the frame guild needs ) ! That would make it possible for the town council to cut out every guild with opposing ideas ! Such would make it unattractive for the guilds to participate, and they would not support the town council anymore. So the guild council needs a certain, safe power amount.
In a time with a hundred guilds, there will be different towns, and town councils too i guess.

The six points below seem to be necessary for a working system :

• IF a guild leader is elected into the town council, he and his guild have no seat and no voice in the guild council ( because it would double the votes of that guild )
• The guild council can not decide laws. It can only give a request of  needed law, or  proposal, to the town council. the town council decides and forms it, and the decision will be given to the guild council who has the veto right.
• The town council can decide laws. They must be accepted by the guild council to become law. If the Guild council uses his veto right, then the law must either be brought to a new form by the town council and then given to the guild council again, or be abandoned.
• The Major is the representative of the town council. He CANNOT decide without the majority of the town council. Only exception : FULL support of the guild council in urgent situations, when no other town council member is available.
• The guild council consists of one representative or leader of every guild with more than tem members. These guild's member lists should be open to public.
• Multiple characters of the same person in the same Guild do NOT count to increase member numbers ! A total number of counting members MUST be displayed in that case.

(Edited by Damien at 6:05 pm on July 20, 2001)

In a long way, when it is technical possible, i would suggest an ingame voting system or such. ( That means, like an election, every character hs one vote )

Is there any guild who has ten members? Without names, that played long ago, and doesn't exist in Illarion anymore.
I think in the moment, 10 memebers is to high.  This isn't the reality of our Illarion now. Perhaps later, the number should rise, but not yet.

There are guilds with more than 10 members:

The Order Of The Grey Light
The Shadowen Empire
The Amazon Tribe
The Titans

more to come


And I think 10 is a good number at the moment!

My guild neon,MY GUILD!

it got about 15 members

Then create a homepage and make your guild OFFICIAL. This means write a mail to gods@illarion.de with the link to the homepage. Then it will be added to the link list on this page ... then it's an official guild!

why do you need a homepage?!