Proposal: Tired

[Llama]

Proposal: A seperate (invisable) bar for fighting, which controls the fighting system, and edits the skill bar invisibly...

A rested person is at 100%, with every war-action, it decreases, and his skill does so invisable... example If i have 30 skill in parrying, and i'm 50% tired, then my skill will act as 15 skill...and learning will increase accordingly.

RPed : The person got tired and fought less well.

Advantages: 1) No more hero who can beat 25 enemies, yet still find time for a nice duel
2) No more need for learning cap in fighting (if the person wants to end up getting killed by simple creatures so be it)
3) Tactics > Use weak soldiers to tire the enemy out, then attack with strong, less tired men. Or Keep a reserve squad to mop up suriviors
4) Assassins > Person X is tired after a battle, his level is at 20%; an assassin who has 5 times less skill than he does, could fight and beat him
5) No more > Drink refresh health...
6) Person has to know his limits
7) People after battles are tired, even if they were just ARCHERS who took no damage
People who fought, yet are at full health will not be able to continue fighting just because they wont learn anything...,so more people have to take part in battle, no more "tanks" which kill all

Disadvantages: "Unfair" for younger players; Players must know the fact or there will be a "BUG!" rush

Thank you end of suggestion...

[Nop]

I like the proposed mechanism. I just don't see why a tired person should learn faster than a fit person.

I would give the players a hint when the reach critical levels of tiredness though, so everybody knows why things start failing.

I presume all skills are negatively affected by tiring, (magic, crafting etc.) not only fighting.

[Saradomin_Meranwyn]

IMHO, I don't really like this idea, I am just fine with the skill cap.

[Fooser]

Or instead we could make Illarion like one of those turn-based browser games where you can do two actions a day.

Sounds like fun

[Saradomin_Meranwyn]

Those games suck ass.



~! Wise words from a not so wise man. !~

[Fooser]

Those games suck ass.



~! Wise words from a not so wise man. !~

...That's the point

[Ellaron]

Great idea, but again only if there's a full wipe, (you knew it was coming ), especially if it's applied to all crafts.
My opinion on Advantages :
1) I agree.
2) It will still be a cap just by another name, but at least it makes sense.
3) I can see great possibilties here.
4) Would only work if the assasin could "see" how tired the victim was.
5) Again good idea.
6) I think the bar should be visible and therefore allow the player to know the limits. After all a character would know how tired he is getting in the same way he knows how unhealthy he's getting.
7) An archer would be less tired than someone on the front line swinging a double axe. So that complicates it a bit.

[Saradomin_Meranwyn]

Give different weapons, different amounts of fatigue they deal to your character. Simple.

[Moirear Sian]

Advantages: 1) No more hero who can beat 25 enemies, yet still find time for a nice duel
2) No more need for learning cap in fighting (if the person wants to end up getting killed by simple creatures so be it)
3) Tactics > Use weak soldiers to tire the enemy out, then attack with strong, less tired men. Or Keep a reserve squad to mop up suriviors
4) Assassins > Person X is tired after a battle, his level is at 20%; an assassin who has 5 times less skill than he does, could fight and beat him
5) No more > Drink refresh health...
6) Person has to know his limits
7) People after battles are tired, even if they were just ARCHERS who took no damage
People who fought, yet are at full health will not be able to continue fighting just because they wont learn anything...,so more people have to take part in battle, no more "tanks" which kill all
Disadvantages: "Unfair" for younger players; Players must know the fact or there will be a "BUG!" rush

1.) (-)
2.) People will find ways around it, but I'm no friend of the current skill "cap". <_< (+/-)
3.) We don't have the luxury of 20vs20 battles. (-)
4.) That would be sweet indeed. Especially considering that most effective assassins are female or children and kill their marks during their "weak moments". Would give things some literary justice. (+)
5.) (-)
6.) I'd want a third bar, please. I know some people are "stat-knowledge-allergic" but this would be nice to see visually. <_< (+/-)
7.) v_v (+/-)
8.) (-)
Disadvantages: The ones you listed (-) plus the ones I did above.

8x (-)
4x (+)

>_>

Do what you want...

7) An archer would be less tired than someone on the front line swinging a double axe. So that complicates it a bit.

Actually, it would automatically balance out. An archer is not busy parrying or anything. Just shooting.

[The Returner]

Or instead we could make Illarion like one of those turn-based browser games where you can do two actions a day.

Sounds like fun

*just nuked a planet and is building a new fleet*


STFU NOOB

[Fooser]

lmao


*researches uber ships and kills Returners fleet*

bitooooch

[Pendar]

The proposal its self is sound how ever, basically it varies from a skill cap by making me weaker as well as capping my learning.
Allready we have seen the skill cap have a some what negative affect on some players and we summarise as such player numbers. In so much as players who logg on with one or two people online soon find they have nothing to do.

Some one said a complete wipe?
Why so we can go through the chaos that occured after the whipe again. The skill cap serves one great purpose no one can skill to fast and people can be caught in reasonable time. How do i know this, i have numerous characters some older than others.

My base reaction to this is, great idea if skills were simple to gain but they are not. We walk a fine line between making this game such a long term comitment that it takes 3 years to skill a character. It took me 5 months to skill Pendar at a rate i felt realistic for him and rp true to his nature.
Do we wish to make it harder for ourselves? Further prejudice many players who only have an hour a day to dedicate to this game?

Tanks,
this concept also doesnt sit well with me i have a warrior with no skills. I murder skeletons and other gm spawns. Shock horror i dont try and take them on up front like some higher skilled characters can.
More over Pendar is skilled and he has died from monster spawns. What we need to do is look at potions and a way to make them not so easy to drink all the time.
Biggest tank i fought on this server was PVP with an orc who drank 12 potions. How ever i believe this problem has been solved and a new method is being worked on.

in closeing a great idea, i just dont feel it adds to our in game fun. At least not for me.
Brian

[Galim]

What we need to do is look at potions and a way to make them not so easy to drink all the time.
Biggest tank i fought on this server was PVP with an orc who drank 12 potions. How ever i believe this problem has been solved and a new method is being worked on.

potions can't be drank anymore while fighting. Just like you can't eat anymore whole fighting.

But you are right with everything else and I agree. With this proposal i see more bad things for the player than good things. It would be game and fun destroying.

[Llama]

I don't agree at all with Galim....

Current Assassin > #me sneaks up and stabs the person in the back
((Hey no forced RP!))

Assassin with proposed system > #me sneaks up and stabs the person in the back
#him turns slowly, he seems to be tired from fighting and can't seem to be parrying the stabs as they come

As for the large wars... for example the orc attack in TB... if you had ONE really good fighter with who knows how many potions, he could have killed all of them...

The idea is simple, you need to rest, and this creates tactics, you hide an army, wait for the enemy to tire themselves out.. and then... easy meat.

Its also more realistic

@ Nop, I was thinking the opposite, a tired person learns less quickly than an awake one.

@ Skill cap, I see no need for a learning cap in fighting, if the person continues fighting, even after he's tired... he will be very easy to destroy..
and if the skill loss on death is increased.. it would be critical

Example : Person is training, has killed 30 mummies, he is dead tired, he climbs up and meets his worst enemy.

This system > Person kills the enemy easily, doesn't gain any skill learn, then just walks away
Proposed system > Enemy literally beats him to shreds..

Also I would suggest that rest only take place when the person is online, so you do not kill 100 mummies, log out; and come back later...

[Ellaron]

The reason I keep on about complete wipes is it's surprising how the atitude of older players changes.

New horrendous skill cap system without wipe conversation:>
older player : I think it's a great idea.
newer player : It will be impossible to get skills for my character.
older player : Illarion is not about skills. Go play Tibia you scum.

Same new horrendous skill cap system with wipe conversation:>
Older player : it's a terrible idea. Chaos all over the place. My character will not be able to function as I have created him without his skills.
newer player : This will make the game suck.
Older player : See. We'll lose loads of new players and older ones will quit as well.

PS. I am against the skill cap, or any skill caps for that matter.

[Moirear Sian]

The reason I keep on about complete wipes is it's surprising how the atitude of older players changes.

New horrendous skill cap system without wipe conversation:>
older player : I think it's a great idea.
newer player : It will be impossible to get skills for my character.
older player : Illarion is not about skills. Go play Tibia you scum.

Same new horrendous skill cap system with wipe conversation:>
Older player : it's a terrible idea. Chaos all over the place. My character will not be able to function as I have created him without his skills.
newer player : This will make the game suck.
Older player : See. We'll lose loads of new players and older ones will quit as well.

PS. I am against the skill cap, or any skill caps for that matter.

When I vouched for skill caps, way back, when it was so there would be a total limit of skill a character could reach in order to prevent everybody from being a jack-of-all-trades - I could have never imagined they'd make a skill "cap" like the one that's active now. I wonder what new anti-PG methods are currently being developed to take more fun out of Illarion.

As for wipes, I could care less, it's like impossible for me right now to have any character gain any worthwhile skills; which is not far from the situation pre-wipe where people had characters from before the time when roleplaying was enforced in this game and it was impossible to get anywhere close to them with the 10x10-system. It usually takes me a minute or two to reach my character's skill "cap" now, and then? The excitement never ends...

[Pendar]

Apologies Ellaron, I bundled you in with the "some people have skills" I do not so we need a wipe group. My mistake upon reading your reply i now see how that statement makes sense.

Hadrian we actually have a tired system, the food level dictates how you heal if you are tired and fight your health drops far quicker. I really think this comes down to player responsibility. Realistically rping your character..
For example if pendar is sent to the cross i usually rp him wounded and have him move to the inn.
If i am pressed by the possibility of a further pvp attack I actually remove some armor to simulated his wounded state.

All this talk of armies when have we seen a fight between more than 3-4 people lately. Simply the game is not a stage where tatics of that nature are required and if it does i would rather see priests and bards given haste,slow,fatigue,envogorate spells.

I think what i come back to is end of the day this is a mmorpg with enforced rp not a life simulation. Allready many people feel the skill cap has taken the fun from the game. Now we want to make it more complex make it invsible and confuse us players more?

and if the skill loss on death is increased

In two various gms quests and once by chance one of my characters was recently killed 5 times in 48 hours. Tell me you want more skill loss when your master carpentar cant make a staff

I think what i find in this proposal and i will say it again is although a good idea for a "game" it seems more of a punishment.
If we wanted to look at this sort of idea we should rather explore Cass's idea of bleeding.
A bleeding wound inflicted by a critical.
A banage stops health loss but your health can only regain to 4/5 of max.
Dependant on the severity of the wound. Bandages and other items would help and a healer "could be a druid skill" would be able to repair the damage entirely.
I would say one could only get such a wound from PVP and this is a very rough proposal, indeed.
My point would be for everything we remove from the game we should seek to add something a new oppurtunity for players.
To me this would just make the game more of a head ache.
Brian

[Misjbar]

When I vouched for skill caps, way back, when it was so there would be a total limit of skill a character could reach in order to prevent everybody from being a jack-of-all-trades - I could have never imagined they'd make a skill "cap" like the one that's active now. I wonder what new anti-PG methods are currently being developed to take more fun out of Illarion.

Dreams are dreams..Nothing more.

[Moirear Sian]

Oh, what a dream. A skill cap like it works in so many other games, i.e. UO.

Yep, I must be dreaming.

[Pendar]

I am not even going to come out and defend the skill cap, those who follows forums will recall my thread in regard to it when it first came out.
How ever a few points, yes one does cap fast especially warriors. How ever that is because the actions are so quick.
Skills are fast I mean they hopp up each time you capp, the skill capp can wear off with in an hour of being in game.
My end point i have skilled numerous characters under the new system skills are easier than ever. Merely the speed of capping does leave certain characters cut adrift. I have a pretty anti-social character who i have all but ceased playing, as capp takes 5 minutes.
Then what i am to "scared" to mine or farm as that means i wont uncap for the skill i need.
How ever in the skill i want him to gain he has excelled, certainly the system is not perfect but it is not terrible to the point of making the game unplayable.
Brian

[Moirear Sian]

How ever in the skill i want him to gain he has excelled, certainly the system is not perfect but it is not terrible to the point of making the game unplayable.

I beg to differ, not everybody has hours on end to sit off this cap thing in game. For me personally it pays off more to just log out and not play for a few days, which in turn means being exponentionally behind people who play for hours on end, skill-wise. It's not like I can "compensate" to keep up with them by sitting down and playing for an hour straight - things cap out before that. And you may be endangered to think I'm talking about "compensating" in the sense of getting matching skills to PvP, but you couldn't be more mistaken. It actually sucks big time in any MORPG if they don't leave the possibility open to keep up somewhat with friends/adventuring parties. It also makes it hard to explain things for ambitious characters who aren't played 24-7 - "Were you slacking off in your training? What were you doing?" - "Errr... nothing..."

[Pendar]

Oh I can relate to what your saying and yes I do have a lot of time i confess.
Honestly though if i capp more than once a day it is unusual. So believe it or not I may play 6 hours or more a day when time allows. How ever I dont actually capp my skills 6 times a day.
Takes me about a month to have an adventure skilled character, 3 month to skill and Pendar took me 5+.
So absolutely far from perfect and even logged off it shouldnt take more than around 6-12 for you to regain learning skills so you could play daily at least as you wished to.
Please dont think i am saying bad Sian dont moan about our wonderful capp it is just easy for the issue to become scewed until we create a huge Illarion boogy man, where we only have a "problem".
I am personally an advocate of characters becoming competant fast, or even starting some what skilled enough. How ever failing that i just felt obliged to point out its not as dire as it may appear.
Brian

[Fooser]

What exactly does this accomplish for entertainment purposes? (yes RP is entertainment suprisingly, how many people are getting paid to RP here?) Ok, it helps assassins (what, .2% of all characters?), and it pisses off 98.8% of everyone else

[Cain Freemont]

The reason I keep on about complete wipes is it's surprising how the atitude of older players changes.

New horrendous skill cap system without wipe conversation:>
older player : I think it's a great idea.
newer player : It will be impossible to get skills for my character.
older player : Illarion is not about skills. Go play Tibia you scum.

*cough*

Older player (namely me) before all this shit went down: They'll just screw it up. It will be ridiculously impossible for characters to gain and keep up with other players if they don't have all the leisure time in the world, like kids still living with their parents do. And if the kid has a part-time job, plus goes to school, he may as well not even try to play the game to its full capacity, because the new full capacity will require at least 4 hours daily play-time, PLUS proper roleplay.

Newer, probably far too open-minded, player who gave his full support about skill caps without even having played the game much before all this shit went down: Nah, it'll be alright. They'll find a system that meets the playing ability of all the players. I don't think the Illarion staff would really nerf half of its already small player-base like that. You really don't sound like the other older players that seem to be against skill-gain in an RP scenario.

Older player (namely me): ..Mmh.. we'll see. Nothing anyone can do anyway since once something is planned, it never gets changed. And skill gain is essential to any game that is based around training, interacting, and roleplaying. The technical term of it is "skill gain", but the roleplay term of it is "improving." People fail to see that, so they are dooming themselves, really.

Dun dun DUNNNNNN!!! Irony.

[Moirear Sian]

Newer, probably far too open-minded, player who gave his full support about skill caps without even having played the game much before all this shit went down: Nah, it'll be alright. They'll find a system that meets the playing ability of all the players. I don't think the Illarion staff would really nerf half of its already small player-base like that.

<_<

... *cough*

In fact, I said that stuff because I felt bad for the staff. It was a few days after wipe and the new bug-ridden client launch that everybody was already systematically putting down the skill "cap" and everything else.



Blame me for being optimistic or occasional incorporation of Advocatus Diaboli, but I have no crystal ball of fortune telling.

[Gro'bul]

Who said they ever plan anything?

[Aegohl]

*ding* *ding!* Thank you, Grobul, for pointing out a fact in such a way that it would get ignored. I am here to explain so that it won't be ignored.

Everyone read this:

Who said they ever plan anything?

Sounds nonsensical, doesn't it? But it's the fact. We don't spend hours, days, and months thinking about things that we could use doing things. Then we'd have a brilliant game thought up and yet we'd still be at that way early screenshot on the homepage that is a series of colors.

It's not that we will never change something once we've implemented it. In fact, the MC system has been juggled around extensively since it's creation, and now is looking at an entire rewrite, I believe (I proposed an entirely different system, but oh well). It's rather that we have a system in place, for the time being, however well or not it works, and we have so many other things to work on.

So, yes. Grobul was correct. He knows he's correct. Know why? There's no plan on what graphics he makes. I hope this look behind the scenes has enlightened.

[Fooser]

Aegohl '08

[Llama]

@ Pendar > Archers who do not receive wounds do not lose food level points; neither do those who just "tag along", ie let someone else receive damage, while they help attack

@ Cain > Dude I'm a kid who lives with his parents, and goes to school ect.. and doesn't spend 4 hours a day, yet i still have a
"Master Carpenter"

@ Pendar [again]> Remove platemail? My character [selisidour] used to fight without any armor before, and sometimes duels without it; it still took someone like you 8 shots to kill him, armed with just a sword both ways... its not good enough..

@ Fooser > Assassins right now are normally people armed with a good weapon and who literally break the person to shreds, which isn't really an assassin, who is normally a person hidden who attacks quickly with fast weapons. And the reason why only .2% of the population use it... its not viable...yet

Ok #me goes behind Fooser and stabs him with a dagger

WIll you RP falling and dying and bleedign to shreds and giving up your armor just because I did a (force?) RP..?

Its already hard enough with people magically knowing what goes on behind them

ALSO : PS we are nto talking about skillcaps/wipes ect... if you are to discuss those, do them in reference to this please...

[Pendar]

@ Pendar [again]> Remove platemail? My character [selisidour] used to fight without any armor before, and sometimes duels without it; it still took someone like you 8 shots to kill him, armed with just a sword both ways... its not good enough..

You have a master carpenter I have a master swordsman, 8 hits with a blade to an unarmored person is actually a rather long kill. The fact we were dueling and you didn’t step back would also imply I landed a critical hit.
I am not sure how your proposal fixes this "problem" I admit i am not seeing the problem in killing an unarmed enemy in 8 blows.

@ Pendar > Archers who do not receive wounds do not lose food level points; neither do those who just "tag along", ie let someone else receive damage, while they help attack

Believe it or not i can play a 90 minute football match or dig in the garden and not receive damage. Damage is incurred when you take a "hit" fatigue should be rped or is loosely simulated by food levels.
Really for me this system works just fine.

"Assassins"
I cannot help it if assassins are generally stupid, Speak to anither or raven about how to assassinate some one . Also if you use a dagger that’s your choice the game does not cater for stealth kill ninja tactics. High bow skills can kill a troll or oger in some 6 arrows, A high enough slashing skill will let you dispatch many people. If Pendar came from selisdour with daggers I would lightly kill him. As such I could assassinate many characters.
I would hate to see a way in game for a dagger wielding character to routinely destroy master warriors.
We may see "back" attacks in the client one day and this would level the fast from the tanks some what.
Assassins are the single hardest role to play and you know what i am not sure where this Ninja hit man code name 37 concept crept into peoples heads.
If the client was designed to allow stealth kills and slit throats we would all be playing a version of Thief.
There are numerous ways to get one up on high skilled players, there are numerous ways to rp an assassin. I have played, seen and been caught by many.
How ever no there is no way for a chain mail wearing semi skilled character to walk up and take Pendar or any skilled character in the street.
I believe things will remain that way.
Brian