Illarion.org

Hello, I want to talk about rumors like this one in the thread for rumors

You hear that every citzen of Trolls Bane is allowed to kill dwarfs on sight. Lennier pays a bounty for every dwarf

such rumors should be stopped. They are a way of forced rp. i will explain to you why. without have it happening ingame the writer of that rumors decides that many peoples, because so that rumor sounds, are speaking of that. that means without roleplay he decides what others say. sorry, but this is wrong. such rumors should be written like "you hear from a man in the street that ..." and not "you hear rumors". because this way you decide that there is everywhere in town rumors which says that, even when you are the only one who does that. thats not okay.

And before anyone starts rumors in the forum he should ROLEPLAY it how he spread the rumor. of course that is not necessary when it really happened. like when you write that you hear rumors of someone who did something really ingame. there should be no rumors about something which haven't really happened ingame, and if this just means the spreading of the rumor.

we should have rules for the rumor thread. because someone can do too much wrong with that.

-------------------

ich möchte auf folgendes gerücht eingehen welches ich im gerüchtethread fand.

You hear that every citzen of Trolls Bane is allowed to kill dwarfs on sight. Lennier pays a bounty for every dwarf[

ich finde es falsch das gerüchte auf jene weise verbreitet werden. es geht um den syntax. denn der der dieses gerücht schrieb begeht damit eine form des "forced rp" nämlich in dem er, ohne es ingame ausgespielt zu haben oder ohne das es ingame wirklich so ist, entscheidet was andere denken oder sagen. auch wenn dies nur "imaginäre" stadtbewohner sind.

jeder der ein gerücht im forum niederschreibt soll es vorher ingame selber verbreitet haben, und auch dann sollte, sofern andere nicht mit einsteigen, das gerücht auf "du hörst von einem mann..." und nicht "du hörst..." heissen.

es sollte keine gerüchte zu dingen im forum gepostet werden die keinen wirklichen ingame rückhalt haben. für die es ingame keine passierten oder existierenden belege gibt. und sei es nur das man das gerücht wirklich selber in umlauf gesetzt hat.

es sollte regeln für den gerüchtethread geben, denn ansonsten kann jemand damit zu viel unsinn anstellen, ingame unabhängig.

In this case, the whole thread should be deleted.

I have the feeling that you didn't understand the meaning of the word "rumor" at all. It is NOT claimed that Lennier said that for sure. It does NOT say anything about what a character thinks or has said.

It spreads a RUMOR.

"Forced RP"... I think the next time I hear that term I delete the corresponding characters without thinking twice. It is just another term for "I don't want that".

Stop using it as argument for anything, especially if you didn't invent RP yourself.

Martin

You don't understood what I meant Martin, in english its hard for me to explain to you, so i will do it in german.


So, vielleicht schaffe ich es nun dir verständlich zu machen. Indem der verfasser jenes Gerüchtes schreibt "Du hörst Das jeder Bürger Trolls Banes die erlaubnis hat Zwerge wenn er sie sieht zu töten. Lennier zahlt ein Kopfgeld für jeden Zwerg" Geht der Author davon aus das der der das liest, also der spieler, mit seinem character von mehreren stellen als nur einer, nämlich den urfasser des gerüchtes, davon gehört hat. der autor geht also davon aus das "viele" in der stadt darüber reden. ohne das er dies wohl wirklich ingame ausgespielt hat. er setzt sich also einfach an seinen pc und entscheidet mal schnell als einfacher spieler was in der stadt herumerzählt wird, ohne das er je ingame gegangen ist und versucht hat dies auszuspielen, die leute zu überzeugen und sie dazu zu bringen ihm zu glauben. er entscheidet also was andere sagen und denken. ob nun spielercharakter oder einer der imaginären einwohner. ich weiss, er könnte auch sagen wollen das nur einer jens gerücht herumerzählt, dann ist es halt ein einfacher syntax fehler. aber so wie das gerücht verfasst wurde, geht er offensichtlich davon aus das mehr als nur sein character das gerücht verbreitet. ohne dies vorher mit rollenspiel zu untermauern. verstehst du nun was ich meine?

das "forced rp" liegt in meinen augen darinne das er als spieler entscheidet was andere, ob nun spielercharaktere oder imaginäre leute, erzählen und glauben. auch wenn er nun keinen besonders angesprochen hat. denn wenn er davon ausgeht das mehr als nur sein character das herumerzählt lässt er auf jeden fall jemanden sowas sagen und glauben.

ich bin nicht gegen gerüchte, ich finde aber sie sollten vorher ingame ausgespielt werden, also wie sie verbreitet werden. und sie sollten in einer form geschrieben werden die nicht behauptet das es wohl schon viele gibt die jenes gerücht verbreiten. auch wenn es gerüchte sind, sollten sie aus der sicht der spieler auf eine ingame wirklich geschehene tatsache basieren. in diesem falle das sie wirklich erzählt wurden, das wirklich ingame mehrere leute behaupten das es so sei, usw.

dadurch das er das gerücht auf jener weise niederschreibt geht er einfach mal davon aus das es ingame wirklich so ist, das wirklich das gerüchte verbreitet herumerzählt, auch wenn er selber dies vielleicht nicht nachweisen kann. als spielerebene meine ich

I have the feeling that you didn't understand the meaning of the word "rumor" at all. It is NOT claimed that Lennier said that for sure. It does NOT say anything about what a character thinks or has said.

das weiss ich selber, stell mich nicht als blöd da. aber du hast nicht verstanden was ich sagte. es ist die art und weise wie er das gerücht schrieb. denn er schreibt es in einer form in der es nicht das ist was sein charakter, also ein charakter sagt und denkt, nein, er schreibt es so das einem anderen spieler der eindruck kommt das VIELE charaktere so denken und sprechen. auch wenn dies nicht wirklich so ist. das ist schon fast als würde man ein gerücht ooc verbreiten. das man ooc behauptet ingame würde das so sein. jetzt nicht die zwerge beziehend, aber der tatsache das es wohl herumerzählt wird.

I don't see anything wrong with this rumour. It is the same as if I would say "Max isn't a man but a women". It is the same. The one who know Max know that it is fake. The one who doesn't may think that it is possible but it doesn't force Max to act like a woman because I spread the rumour that he is

The same with the citizen of Trolls Bane and the dwarves. The people who know Lennier know that he never said it nor would. The one who doesn't go hunt dwarves if they want any money. Sure they'll never receive any. So what, that is live

The same with the citizen of Trolls Bane and the dwarves. The people who know Lennier know that he never said it nor would. The one who doesn't go hunt dwarves if they want any money. Sure they'll never receive any. So what, that is live

so you say it is okay to sit infront if his pc and write something in the forum, without ever having it roleplay, or without that it really happened that other characters or peoples told something like that, and to cause with that atacks on dwarves? without having the telling of the rumor or the really spreading roleplayed ingame he cause with that attacks on other players. for me that is not okay.

for me the rumor board shouldn't be an other way to spread rumors. it should just be used to spread rumors which you roleplayed before that ingame. noone should be allowed to say others are telling that rumor around without having before that roleplayed it ingame and convinced others to really believe him and telling it around.

And you have evidence that this person wasn't spreading the rumor ingame?

no, do you have evidence that he done it? and have you evidence that others done it too? see, its okay as long as he scribes that one man, his character, spreads that rumor. but it is not right to decide as a player without successfull roleplay ingame that other peoples ingame, if just roleplayed citizens or existing characters, are spreading around the rumor.

And a town only has 20 people? There are other fake characters out there. That we dont see, maybe they are spreading the rumor, and some of you hear it

Edit I believe the rumor board, is basically like going ingame and spreading the rumor, it is an RPG BOARD. How can Caitlin rpg going to a diffrent isle without actually going to a diffrent isle in game

How can somebody do anything on the rpg board without doing it ingame first

Erart, as a player i wouldn't take the right and the power to decide what that not really as a character existing citizens believe and think. that is something just gm's can do. a player can'T say "yes, the citizens beleive me and do what i want". this way you could say that a hudnred ciitzens of trolls bane stand behind you and would fight for you, or that they would give their vote for you by something, or whatever

If your way of thinking was right Galim, I believe the GM's would kill themselves, just trying to keep up with the places we invent. and putting them ingame


Edit - Galim ITS A RUMOR, that doesnt mean people believe it, just means they hear something and pass it along

Edit 2 - Hey Lennier is offering bounties for all Dwarfs
Hey I heard that that was a lie
Hey I heard that somebody was making that up, but lennier is starting to agree with it

They dont believe it, they just say what they hear

Galim wrote:no, do you have evidence that he done it? and have you evidence that others done it too? see, its okay as long as he scribes that one man, his character, spreads that rumor. but it is not right to decide as a player without successfull roleplay ingame that other peoples ingame, if just roleplayed citizens or existing characters, are spreading around the rumor.

I have spread this rumor you are talking about a thousand times in the past. I can look up according posts and logs if you wish it so.

This is not the first time dwarves are attacked with these rumors. Misjbar likes to do such rumors, just to annoy certain dwarves. So please, do not start something till you have done extensive research. And if you wish the logs/posts, you can send me a PM, or ask me here. Thank you very much.

The first time I made this topic it was used to let NPC or fictional characters talk to the community of player characters.
Either as quest help, or to spice up daily play.

Right now its used for pure personal gain.
Telling us how great specific player characters are, or that somebody is taking a brake and we should all cry out in pain.

Thats not what I wanted with this topic and it hurts me to see it litteraly abused on daily base.
I wish either a GM takes up to him- or herself and cleans it, or its getting deleted completly.

Every "rumor" made by a player character should be spread ingame only.

misjbar, it is not about the fact that dwarves get attacked there. that was just an example ^_^. i mean every rumor which looks like that. i know that you spread such rumors too, but you did it in some other way.

I agree with Galim, not to mention many of them seem just silly for people to accually gossip about.

Thalodos Artemetus wrote:You here that a drow was sighted in town arguing with two men and an Elf.
You overhear talk that she planned to kidnap someone.

Because this accually happend, and was quite extraordinary I think it is appropriate for the rumors thread.
Also, many people who were not involved talked about it alot afterward. So it really was spread through the accuall living and breathing population.

Keikan Hiru wrote:Right now its used for pure personal gain.
Telling us how great specific player characters are, or that somebody is taking a brake and we should all cry out in pain.

Yeah, I can see all the mental masturbation already.
What a gain when you do that. Wow. What an achievement.

Keikan Hiru wrote:Every "rumor" made by a player character should be spread ingame only.

I disagree, we have too many (even older) players who have issues seperating OOC and IC information, why should we play under another senseless rule?

Removing the rumor section or restraining it with rules, go ahead and do it; although, honestly I think this fuss is too stupid. If you spend more time in game than off game, you won't be giving a damn about what some nerd writes in "rumors".

I just fear people coming up with stupid rules again which serve more to selectively bitch at people rather than being "real" rules, just like the whole powergaming story. And I just don't understand, after reading this thread twice, what exactly the problem is...

You have a problem with
• completely fabricated lies in rumor form
• spread on a forum
• which everybody ignores anyway?

Can someone help me out and explain the issue in human tongues?


--

Galim wrote:ich finde es falsch das gerüchte auf jene weise verbreitet werden. es geht um den syntax. denn der der dieses gerücht schrieb begeht damit eine form des "forced rp" nämlich in dem er, ohne es ingame ausgespielt zu haben oder ohne das es ingame wirklich so ist, entscheidet was andere denken oder sagen. auch wenn dies nur "imaginäre" stadtbewohner sind.

Schwachsinn; jeder Charakter den Du kontrollierst kann in Reaktion darauf glauben und denken, was er oder sie will, oder? Aber sobald das Gerücht einer Deiner Chars in den Mund gelegt wird, wird es "forced rp", sonst nicht.

Galim wrote:jeder der ein gerücht im forum niederschreibt soll es vorher ingame selber verbreitet haben, und auch dann sollte, sofern andere nicht mit einsteigen, das gerücht auf "du hörst von einem mann..." und nicht "du hörst..." heissen.

Richtlinien dazu, wie man gute Gerüchte schreibt, sind vielleicht gut; aber ich sehe in diesem Thread ansonsten keine...

Galim wrote:es sollte keine gerüchte zu dingen im forum gepostet werden die keinen wirklichen ingame rückhalt haben. für die es ingame keine passierten oder existierenden belege gibt. und sei es nur das man das gerücht wirklich selber in umlauf gesetzt hat.

Wieso?! Jedes Gerücht muss der Wahrheit entsprechen?
Das ist doof.

Galim wrote:es sollte regeln für den gerüchtethread geben, denn ansonsten kann jemand damit zu viel unsinn anstellen, ingame unabhängig.

Pah, glaubst doch nicht ernsthaft, dass jetzt alle auf Zwergendjagd gehen nur weil irgendso ein Depp schreibt, es wäre jetzt Zwergensaison, ne? *g*

I was reading Quinasa's comments on the off-topic board about somewhat stupid behavior on the rumors board lately, so I decided to bring this thread back up and this is what I have to say.

The problem with how the rumor board is used, and what Galim was somewhat alluding to that most of you seemed to have not understood, is that the rumor board is presented in a way that its content is supposed to an OBJECTIVE NARRATION, and is of what in-game characters actually care about enough or believe enough to actually spread rumors about, and hence becomes HEARD. This format itself is inherently WRONG, because one is NARRATING what massive amounts of OTHER CHARACTERS are talking and hearing about, which is the same as writing about the actions of another person's character on a regular rpg thread without their permission. By posting in this format, you the player is NARRATING the actions of other player's characters, not you the character spreading a rumor. One should only "HEAR" about a rumor as far as characters themselves are actually interested enough to COMMUNICATE about, in which case your character will learn of the rumor and eliminates the purpose of narrating it in the first place.

For example, anyone just goes up to the board and NARRATES some crap like "You hear rumors that XYZ ate 5 apples and took a nap". Really? The townspeople were really so interested in that, that they're all talking about it so much, that I actually HEARD this multiple times from random people while strolling the street? Seriously? I HEARD that already?

The way that Illarionites are using the rumor board is basically as some town wall where any character goes and doodles and post something that he wants to spread so everyone can see it. However, they write it in the format of a narration rather than a message. Therefore, your rumor board should just be simply converted from narration format into a message posting format, thereby making logical what goes on there. That way, the content is sensibly the result of a character starting a rumor by a means of starting COMMUNICATION (posting a message), rather than a player's forced NARRATION of "You HEAR blah blah blah" on other characters.

Look, firstly i think it is a non issue much like the rpg board some players posting are interesting to read and or informative about in game occurrences and information that can be used IC.
How ever most importantly people seem to enjoy the RPG board, I feel much the same way about rumors. I will always believe myself that much smarter than X and better able to gauge the import of a rumor. How ever heck long as they are enjoying it it is not harming me. Even if i find some posts weak or inconsequential through to plain unnecessary.

That said i also like to add some value to a post by sharing my experience for what value they may have. So let's look at the nature of a rumor for it to travel it either needs many witnesses or to be amazingly unusual to be worth passing on to a friend who would in turn feel moved to pass it on.

There is a rumor of a very rude elf with violet eyes having had words with Aristeaus and Pendar in town.

This very recent rumor may seem the sort of drivel that is posted all to often for example.
However as i was in game at the time, threats were made and many people witnessed it is plausible that it would be news worthy.
As there were witnesses and two prominent figures surrounded by a crowd.

Hushed talk and whispered speculation spread about the young guard captain who was seen weeping beneath the tree out side the shop in trollsbane uncaring of who saw, enquired or offered comfort....

my own rumor, it was as one could guess a bad time for pends but his actions in game had been off for sometime and rather odd. Yet main point was game interaction was not just between a few players. He had been moping around crows and shunning company etc.

So eventually we come to err pends very smart what’s the point...
Well here you have it when you post a rumor your main aim should be enrich the game world, with news people can actually use. From the above characters good or bad garner information. One case is that apparently arist has an enemy or perhaps pendar is growing a spine. The second perhaps some one may wish to offer consolation or perhaps an enemy takes advantage.
Many rumors become spam when people give me more information than i need. Especially if it was not actually well witnessed....
be aware of how a rumor travels, one would not hear a dwarf and lizard ate onions.
Instead perhaps one might hear that onions are a good source of food, some people even swear by an onion a day.

X and X were seem swimming in lake adron, unless they having an affair it lacks scandal to make a talking point.
Instead one might here, lake adron has become a favored swimming spot frequented by young couples.

See were i am going?
Think about how rumors travel, embellish it a little they always grow or shrink, generalize it and be sure it adds something people might be able to use or at least care about.
Mostly I dont think it is a big issue, I think rumors are mostly fun some times funny and if you think one is beneath your characters notice ignore it.
As long as people are having fun why take the toy away.....
Brian

To build on brians ridiculously well thought out post...
Rumors are vague generally, so don't give specific names and events, unless it is a duel between prominent figures like Lennier attacking Aristeaus. Then things would be clear. But if it is about tree planting or a good fishing spot or making armour, you don't need to write long detailed rumors about it as that is unrealistic. rumors are passed by mouth.

Thanks dyluck! Finally someone was understanding what I wrote and wanted to say

We were discussing this internally before the thread was brought back to life. You can read a temporary ruling on the matter on the Rumour topic itself.

I think people need to be reminded of this. Rumor thread is not to make your own character seem special. Writting long conversations is not a rumor. Really the thread should be locked for only GM use as, for the most part, it is used by people who write things in it just to make their character seem special.

Raven, the only time i usaly use it is to announce a death. But i belive since it is a RUMOR thread, someone should go in there and post false realistic things from time to time. Becuase rumors are usaly stretched out lies.

Teh Ziel has Spokenith.

True, the rumor of Capus' death could have gone in steps, like these:

1. "I bet Capus is hurt, he must be... he's been out der a week"
2. "I eard capus is hurt, near dead almost"
3. "I was told capus is dead"

But you only get the last one, "Capus is dead"

Mm, good point. But i'd imagine some people would bitch for some unknown reason

Galim wrote:Hello, I want to talk about rumors like this one in the thread for rumors

You hear that every citzen of Trolls Bane is allowed to kill dwarfs on sight. Lennier pays a bounty for every dwarf

I think you're misreading this. You are not hearing from every city of Trolls Bane the rumor, you are hearing the rumor that Every citizen of Trolls Bane...

Like you heard someone say:
"Every citizen of Trolls Bane is allowed to kill dwarfs ..."

One person said it,or posted a note.

That is absolutly horrible to post on the rumor thread. I think it would be much simpler for someone to post it on a diffrent thread. Or if it is a lie then make is like this:

A random peasent tells all entering the shop: "Lennier is paying a bounty for all dwarfs in trollsbane.

But even then it sounds bad.

Unless you know the situation, do not talk about it. Misjbar spread this rumor IG, to be exact. So, I think it is perfectly good to post it in this way.

The problem with that post is that rumors have two parts: the actual rumor, and the source of a rumor.

Sure; the GM's go to that board and post things like:

"You overhear two peasants speaking..."

but that's because we're using those two peasants as NPC's. Players aren't allowed to control our peasants. Those peasants belong to us.

Even worse yet is the bodiless rumor. "You hear a rumor that (insert here)." This rumor doesn't have any source, and a rumor without a source can't be heard.

A correct version of your rumor, Erik, would be "It is said by the elf, Misjbar, that Lennier orders a bounty on all dwarves."

However, you aren't the only one who has misused or abused the rumor board. I've probably done it before. It would just help if we all start using it appropriately before we all lose it.

The only flaw here is Aegohl, that you oftenly do not know the source, so you cannot really mention it in the rumor thread.