Illarion.org

Posted: **Sun Dec 05, 2004 9:26 pm**

I personally think that the shovel breaks too easily when you mine. I break my shovel basically every time i get an ore, so you lose money. In RL, even someone who has never mined before isnt going to break a shovel (Actually i dont see why a shovel is used for minign but whatever) or a pick in just a few swings, some wil last months of continuous mining before breaking. This is very unrealistic and should be changed.

Posted: **Sun Dec 05, 2004 9:35 pm**

Would shovels in medievil times have been very sturdy at all?

Posted: **Sun Dec 05, 2004 10:46 pm**

The shovel is used to shovel the pieces of rock. Quicker than using your hands and better for the nails

.

When you first start to do something you will make mistakes. Mistakes lead to breakages. The better you get, the less mistakes. Though of course you may still get an off day / week / month / life

. Somedays it is annoying but then it leads to oportunities to RP.

Every silver lining has a cloud.

Posted: **Mon Dec 06, 2004 12:00 am**

Would shovels in medievil times have been very sturdy at all?

Yes, actually things made in medieval times are sometimes better than things today lol.

The shovel is used to shovel the pieces of rock. Quicker than using your hands and better for the nails .

When you first start to do something you will make mistakes. Mistakes lead to breakages. The better you get, the less mistakes. Though of course you may still get an off day / week / month / life . Somedays it is annoying but then it leads to oportunities to RP.

Every silver lining has a cloud.

well then you shoudl be able to use your hands but have less success. Like I said though, even someone new at it wouldn't break a shovel after maybe 3 shovelings.

Posted: **Mon Dec 06, 2004 12:12 am**

Yes, actually things made in medieval times are sometimes better than things today lol.

then why dont we use them?

Posted: **Mon Dec 06, 2004 1:55 am**

Cliu Beothach wrote:
Yes, actually things made in medieval times are sometimes better than things today lol.
then why dont we use them?

Because we were brainwashed by the advertisement industry.

falco1029 wrote:I personally think that the shovel breaks too easily when you mine.

I agree.
Also goes for all other expendable tools. Way too many breakages in proportion to starting resources and general prices (btw, general price listings in a medieval setting? Who was smoking what?). Your new character is either female and has everything given to her, or you as the player are screwed.
RP oppurtunities?
Sure: let's go beg for help like a complete sucker and hope someone has pity.

Bottom line: Breakage should be much less frequent. I don't know about you people but it's weird that everybody carries their tool of preference in multiple number. One should suffice for a good deal of time before it breaks down.

falco1029 wrote:In RL, even someone who has never mined before isnt going to break a shovel

That's actually a good point, for those who haven't noticed yet.
So you're a complete ninny in a profession. Do you go slamming your tools recklessly into the next-best object? I think a character's intelligence rating should have a certain influence here; intelligent people can use tools to better extent, while stupid people are more likely to use them recklessly.

Sam wrote:When you first start to do something you will make mistakes. Mistakes lead to breakages. The better you get, the less mistakes. Though of course you may still get an off day / week / month / life

Mistakes of a greenhorn actually, should normally result in nothing—wasted time. Like someone should have been giving tutelage till they can stand on their own two feet. Breaking the tools? Not a necessity, imho.

And then, I could just rant about how I can't pick a single dam' flower with a new character because of a silly herb lore skill and such, but that would be off-topic.

Posted: **Mon Dec 06, 2004 3:46 am**

Cliu Beothach wrote:then why dont we use them?

Because Mass producing lesser quality items is more popular than slowly producing higher quality items

Moirear Sian wrote: I agree.
Also goes for all other expendable tools. Way too many breakages in proportion to starting resources and general prices (btw, general price listings in a medieval setting? Who was smoking what?). Your new character is either female and has everything given to her, or you as the player are screwed.
RP oppurtunities?
Sure: let's go beg for help like a complete sucker and hope someone has pity.

Bottom line: Breakage should be much less frequent. I don't know about you people but it's weird that everybody carries their tool of preference in multiple number. One should suffice for a good deal of time before it breaks down.

falco1029 wrote:
In RL, even someone who has never mined before isnt going to break a shovel

That's actually a good point, for those who haven't noticed yet.
So you're a complete ninny in a profession. Do you go slamming your tools recklessly into the next-best object? I think a character's intelligence rating should have a certain influence here; intelligent people can use tools to better extent, while stupid people are more likely to use them recklessly.

Sam wrote:
When you first start to do something you will make mistakes. Mistakes lead to breakages. The better you get, the less mistakes. Though of course you may still get an off day / week / month / life

Mistakes of a greenhorn actually, should normally result in nothing—wasted time. Like someone should have been giving tutelage till they can stand on their own two feet. Breaking the tools? Not a necessity, imho.

And then, I could just rant about how I can't pick a single dam' flower with a new character because of a silly herb lore skill and such, but that would be off-topic.

Verrily

Posted: **Mon Dec 06, 2004 12:46 pm**

Heh, i break shovels...

All the time, quite easily actually.

Posted: **Mon Dec 06, 2004 1:30 pm**

Maybe it would be great if there was the possibility to repair broken shovels.
Imagine of a mine, full of broken shovels, just thrown away. Wouldn't it be more intelligent to keep the broken shovel to repair it or make it be repaired?
I think tools were very expensive. If I had lived in those times, I wouldn't have thrown away broken things without trying to repair it.

Posted: **Mon Dec 06, 2004 2:04 pm**

We´re currently working on / discussing about this topic.

I agree that the current situation is not satisfying. This will change.

Posted: **Mon Dec 06, 2004 2:04 pm**

Rackere Diplomatre wrote:Maybe it would be great if there was the possibility to repair broken shovels.
Imagine of a mine, full of broken shovels, just thrown away. Wouldn't it be more intelligent to keep the broken shovel to repair it or make it be repaired?
I think tools were very expensive. If I had lived in those times, I wouldn't have thrown away broken things without trying to repair it.

I fully agree, but on the other hand, this would mean that noone ever would assemble any new shovel. We have so few actors on the scene that we can't install realistic procedures at all. All we can do is giving you a smooth touch of what we call pseudo-realistic. You can assemble a shovel, you can use a shovel and you will loose that tool after a while. Then you will be in need to get a new one, buy it or make it. Of course repairing tools would be a nice feature and was discussed and prepared, discussed again and current dissmissed.

Posted: **Mon Dec 06, 2004 8:41 pm**

Maybe a limit on how many times it can be repaired? Like 3 times being repaired before it is considered too bad to use again, then new ones would be made. Possibly too hard to implement, don't know.

Posted: **Mon Dec 06, 2004 9:25 pm**

Even if they do become repairable, that still won't change how fast they break. I swear, the only way that this is realistic would be if said shovels were made of balsa wood, which, might I remind you all, they didn't have back then

.

Posted: **Tue Dec 07, 2004 1:15 am**

Everything breaks to easily. Droping a Motar? who is that much of a clutz to drop more than a few there entire druiding career? And Dropping Needles? Trust me, my mother is a seamstress unless your in shag carpeting, you can allways pick them back up and you dont just drop them there tied to thread, you drop them when you spill your needle containter. But what I have to say to that is, can you really make pants that quickly? no. Do pants sell that poorly? no. So if every 25 pants was equal to 1 real pair of pants, I can see how you could loose a needle in making 100's.

Posted: **Tue Dec 07, 2004 1:34 am**

I have what may seem as an overly simple solution to your problem with the issue of the needle dropping message (run on sentence: Wheee!).

Simply replace the: "You have dropped your needle" message with something along the lines of.

"Your needle and thread become entangled in the fabric, forcing you to abandon this piece of work."

The dropping the mortar message could easily be replaced with something like:

"While crushing the herbs in your mortar, you notice that your hard work has cracked it, forcing you to get a different mortar."

Yes, yes, I know it seems that I'm oversimplifying things. I've decided that it's to be my new hobby.

Edit: I also know that this isn't an actual solution to the problem of losing ridiculous amounts of items due to butter fingers, but it does seem to dispel the image of a presumeably skilled druid simply dropping their mortar because some random integer forced them to do it.

Edit 2: Spelling.

Posted: **Tue Dec 07, 2004 3:34 am**

I think most people who have discussed on this thread are missing the point.

The problem is that an old character can easily acquire and "waste" thirty copies of the same tool, a newbie character can't afford that many. But in reality, they need to do the same amount of work.

Do the math.

This is one of the many things that hurts the economy system, and I propose you make the limit upon which tools break much much higher.

I'm sorry, but a sickle growing blunt after harvesting two mushrooms is ridiculous. An axe that breaks after cutting down three trees is bothersome. A shovel that breaks down on you before you got anything is a pest.

Posted: **Tue Dec 07, 2004 4:40 am**

For the broken tool messages, I think the message that you get when you break a sickle is desirable. The message is "You toss away the worn sickle". That places the responsibility of the breakage on the tool not the user.

I think it could work for other tools too. "You cast aside the blunt needle", "You discard the cracked mortar", and others.

Just my two cents on oversimplifying even further.

Posted: **Tue Dec 07, 2004 9:14 am**

Moirear Sian wrote: I'm sorry, but a sickle growing blunt after harvesting two mushrooms is ridiculous. An axe that breaks after cutting down three trees is bothersome. A shovel that breaks down on you before you got anything is a pest.

Believe it or not, but a sickle, like a shovel, break on a constant 1%-chance.

Posted: **Tue Dec 07, 2004 4:02 pm**

Is it a 1% chance for those starting out in a profession? Or is it a 1% chance for masters and the such?

Posted: **Tue Dec 07, 2004 4:57 pm**

As he said, it is 1% constantly. But beginners don't get as much material as masters...

Posted: **Tue Dec 07, 2004 9:44 pm**

I think that it shouldn't be based on luck. It should be slightly based on the skill, giving the the tool "hp", and depending on how good you are at the skill, having the tool lose the hp every time you use it, but it should ahve a lot. I agree that a newb at somethign would be less careful and such, but the change shouldn't be drastic. Of course, when the tools loses all of the hp, it breaks, and should then be repairable a certain number of times, each time having less hp then when it was first built/bought. This would probably be more realistic and work a lot better

(for an example of hp amoutn and such, a shovel shjould probably have 5000, and lose about 3 each time a noob uses it, while losing 1 each time a much more experienced person uses it. After a repair it should maybe have half the amount each time (rounded to nearest 10), so 1 repair is 2500, 2 would be 1250, ect.)

Posted: **Tue Dec 07, 2004 11:24 pm**

3/5000 is very little but the idea sounds nice.

Posted: **Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:49 am**

well think about it though 3/5000, for it to break it'd take about 1666 uses to break it. Now if you think about how many times a shovel would be able to shovel something aside before even wearing, this is easily enough.

Posted: **Wed Dec 08, 2004 7:25 am**

I don't know how far the server changes did already develope but the way it used to be such a HP- thing would be impossible to do because every item was just a reference to a single database entry. Think about what martin said about "small steps".

Posted: **Wed Dec 08, 2004 8:16 am**

We still have to work with elementary possibilities on the gameserver. For that it had been a great progress to get tools breakable at all.

We are now going to change a lot of basics, such as the database, the script-language and others. This is why we need to have a charwipe then.

Afterwards we can install more elaborated evaluation behind a tool breakage to become more realistic, or better let's say more individual results.

Posted: **Wed Dec 08, 2004 3:29 pm**

falco1029 wrote:well think about it though 3/5000, for it to break it'd take about 1666 uses to break it. Now if you think about how many times a shovel would be able to shovel something aside before even wearing, this is easily enough.

1666 uses: As I said: 3/5000 is very little, so 1666 uses is very much.

Posted: **Wed Dec 08, 2004 10:07 pm**

1666 uses is very reasonable for a tool to break. And about the char wipe, does that mean we'll have to totally start over or will there be some sort of converting tool to get our characters into the new langauge?

Posted: **Wed Dec 08, 2004 11:40 pm**

I think the character wipeout means we start totally over; the only thing that's probably going to be taken across and "converted" are the character names/login passwords.

Adano Eles wrote:I don't know how far the server changes did already develope but the way it used to be such a HP- thing would be impossible to do because every item was just a reference to a single database entry. Think about what martin said about "small steps".

Right, giving items a "hp" would be a giant step but:

Think about the implications of how it is now.

The way it is now, it's more profitable to go beat up monsters, because weapons and armor don't have "hp", and arms never break down, compared to tools. Nobody should be wondering or complaining about people playing super-heroes and super-villains and neglecting the aspect of craftmanship, if this remains as is.

Posted: **Wed Dec 08, 2004 11:56 pm**

Maybe a temporary (and very, very crude) fix could be a miniscule chance of a random worn item being destroyed when turning combat mode on (or off, whatever) ?

Posted: **Wed Dec 08, 2004 11:59 pm**

falco1029 wrote:1666 uses is very reasonable for a tool to break. And about the char wipe, does that mean we'll have to totally start over or will there be some sort of converting tool to get our characters into the new langauge?

I think it's heavily to much.
Btw: I think it isn't possible as long as items are stackable. How would you stack items with different HPs?
Bt*2nd*w: It is the sense of a char wipe to delete chars.