Critical Point.

[Konstantin K]

Critical Point.

Fine! Fine... alright... you win, I will do it...

Many of you PMed me, askign why I quit, acting like you know me, know how I think, many of you think that you know why I quit Illarion, but most just don’t give a shit. Well, I ask for all – stop acting like you know me, stop acting like you care. But if you REALLY want a word by word step by step explanation – fine, as if you didn’t know before.

I hate going-away threads because they are dumb and stupid. They are meant to do 2 things.

1. Grab attention – and I don’t need any more than I have got.
2. Point out critical problems – and I think everybody already knows what Illarion’s problems are.

Yet still, because so many had insisted – fine, once again, I will post my reasons for me leaving.


1. Read Bloodhearte’s, Moirear’s, Nartak’s going away threads. After this, if you still need clarification, read the next points. They will in particular explain why I choose Ultima Online over Illarion.

2. CHARACTER ATTRIBUTES

Right here lays the first fundamental flaw. A character is created with FIXED attributes. This is wrong. Nobody is born that strong and that fast. We become strong, we become fast. A character should be able to grow in strength, agility, intelligence, dexterity, willpower, essence, perception, and constitution. The character’s body should be able to flexibly develop, by use of skills. This way a character would be able to shift his professions throughout his life.

Fixed magery/druidry is another flaw. See Ultima Online, how it manages the problem. It follows in the section below.

3. SKILL GAIN

a. Powergaming

The term powergaming is an utterly stupid concept. Every game is based on skilling up. Instead of being an RPG game, Illarion became an anti-PG game.

b. Difficulty

Making skills horribly hard to gain does not bring nay fun to the game. The people who gained top skills in previous versions of the game now are making fun of newbies, and protecting their position at the top. You people don’t even understand how ridiculous this looks. This is a game, just a game, it doesn’t give you any real power, it is simply a game which should bring fun. Skills should be easy to gain.

c. Prevention of Grandmaster-Everything

What Ultima Online does that Illarion does not – a plain and simple skill cap. Skills are easy to gain, but cannot let you master all skills. This facilitates players interaction and roleplay. Making skills extremely hard to gain – does not. It makes the game boring, not fun. Making the game boring to skill up DOES NOT fascilitate any RP. Illarion gamemasters took the wrong approach to prevent Grandmaster-Everything. It is wrong.

d. Skill loss at death

Illarion characters lose skills at point of death. That is an absolute infinite loop. Skills should not go down with death. The player should only be punished with losing items if he/she is looted. Goes along with point c. If Grandamaster-Everything problem is solved, skill loss at detah is not necessary.

e. Limits versus Grants
Illarion Grandmasters prefer to govern the game using limits for skill, rather than grants. God forbid some player will become too powerful! No! We will make skills so hard, that they cannot hurt us. Wrong approach. Give skills to players to have fun with and easily access.

5. LACK OF ACTION

a. Building.

In Ultima Online, I can go ahead and build myself a house. In Illarion I have to do what Gamemasters TELL me to do. I can only have a chance of building something IF I have a plot behind it that GMs approve. Only what THEY planned – will happen.
Quoting Damien:

“You need to have at least 4 players, each with one character, to work on one building. The complete reconstruction costs are 5 ingots per building square. Only the SMALL buildings can be done NOW. Post Member lists and contact characters here.”

This is bullshit. I don’t have to build a specific building a GM tells me to build. I don’t have to choose one of the options. I want to create an option myself. I am a player, I choose to play the game. My character doesn’t have to have any reason to go ahead and build himself a house. No lists.
@martin: I know the excuses. The client limitations and the lack of map editor are understandable. I am not quitting because the client doesn’t support building. I am quitting because GMs know about it, and it is NOT on the priority list. You guys don’t want to change it in any near future. You are okay with the fact that you hold control of building.

b. Ships.

Illarion does not grant access to ships. Ultima Online does.

c. Successing limits versus grants.

Gamemasters decided to rather rule the game by using limits, instead of giving players fun time:

I. Rock Moving.
Why the hell not give players this ability? Why was it disabled? I say – give players control, give them all the toys, let them have fun, move rocks, use strategical thinking.
You ask: Well, boo hoo, bad players abuse rocks, block exits, trap monsters.
I answer: God Damnit! If players can do WHATEVER with rocks, who the hell cares?
Use the hammer with a rock – to make it crush into bits and disappear, use logs of wood with oil to move them. This would fascilitate more RP, making players have master miner friends, who can easily break rocks and set them free.

II. Water crossing.
Why not let players build bridges and destroy them? Use 10 wood on a water tile to make it a wooden tile. Use axe on it to destroy it. Why not give players power over tiles?

III. Disabled trapsets. No support for rangers. Play Ultima to learn.

IV. No thievery support. No craftable thief gloves. Play Ultima to learn.

V. Inaccessibility of rare artifacts. Loot that Monsters drop is piece of shit.

VI. Invisibility function unavailable to players. Play Ultima to learn.

This simply makes mages rule the game. The only 2 combat ways are: become a grandmaster mage with paralyze or become a grandmaster fighter. The fighting system versus magic system is poor and horribly unbalanced. A warrior stands no chance against a mage.
In Ultima Online even a humble thief has a chance against a mage.

VII. Lack of poison use, which I always protected and proposed. Ultima Online has use of poisons in weapons, drinks, and food.

VIII. Blocked roofs, disabled roof sniping. Who cares if snipers hide on roofs? Chase them! Patrol the roofs! Single them out!


6. RP versus GAMEPLAY

For some ridiculous reason Illarion GMs think that a true Roleplayer doesn’t need technicalities of the game to roleplay. Well, in this case, you guys should have made a non-graphical text based RPG. It would be better than an unfinished graphical one.
Ultima Online makes roleplaying exciting because you can actually do what you roleplay. Whether it is crafting or crime – no matter.

a. Slowed down character movement.

The game already lags a big time, why make jumps even slower?
Travelling through the map is boring.

b. Poor map.

The map is full of dead ends. How it should be – is that no single point has only one exit. Everything must have two exits. At least two escape points.
Secret doors, underground caves, teleporters. I KNOW you guys are capable of all this. The map MUST be made circular, otherwise it’s unfun to play on.

c. AI.

Who ever said that player’s RP must make up for lack of monster Artificial Intelligence.
Even the best Rper will get bored with monsters who pointlessly spawn in same spots and never move around, never drop surprise loot items. You cant constantly come up with a new original reason to go to the same spawn spot every day and kill the same damn type of monster to get the same damn loot.

7. GATHERING RESOURCES.

Nartak is absolutely right. Not going to spend 2 hours on something that is boring. For a year I’ve been clicking my mouse. Enough.

a. Before and after

The bullshit started after “the drought”. How it used to be is mining was available on any rock surface, herb lore was available on any grass surface.
Illarion gamemasters, I tell you – you were WRONG in your assumption that gathering resources was too easy then. It was not too easy. It was challenging enough. It was just fine.

Before, mining was fun, you never knew which stone you will find. Every new gem was a surprise. We tried to figure out statistics, average of certain gem types on certain terrains, and we would talk about it and discuss theories. Herb loring was also fun. You could fascilitate RP very easily, with the aid of resources.

Sample (and I did this myself, ask Morgaine Le Fay, Malinne, Shenruu, Muten):

An elven lady walks through the gates, alone. I am mining. I want to start an RP. I quickly use a sickle on the grass, and give her a flower. A conversation starts. Fun.

I give someone a precious gem I just mined at the gates, and a friendly chat begins.

Now…

To get a flower, I have to walk all the way to god knows where, and by that time the lady is gone. Or I have to drag her with me all the way into the mine cave to give her a precious stone.

b. Resource/Depot Structure.

Illarion gamemasters decided that it is a good idea to do this “strategical planning”. Oh, how cunning, separate stones into mines.
Why, why in the world would you set a specific stone or herb type to grow in a specific place? And you took away the depot by the smithy.

You, you, YOU! YOU killed the very center hot spot of player Rp interaction!!
You did it. That hotspot was like the marketplace, where everyone would stop by and start chatting, attracted by the crowd, or just by the flower, dropped by a stranger.

You took it away.
Your way of thinking was: “Bastards! They are not using the town shop! Let’s make them! Let’s take away the toys!”

Nobody is going to use your workshop, because it’s too damn far away!

The “strategical planning” you make – does not help players. It makes things harder for players.

The map has less and less depots. Now you took away the depot that was on the farm.
And the Bloodskull cave depot – you blocked with guards.

The mines are placed in such a way that they are horribly far away from the depots.
Your line of thinking was: “Ah! That will make people hire carriers!” Well, did it work? No!
Experiment failed. Drop it and return things to their place.

Why do you have to have it your way? Don’t you know the meaning of word “Experiment”? Not every experiment must succeed the way you want it to!
Players refused it, they rejected it! WHY are you making players do it your way?

c. Trees.

Trees are a great improvement in the right direction. This is the toy you finally gave to players. Planting trees/destroying trees. Now if you just make trees not respawn once in half an hour, that would be nice.

Too little trees, too long to grow. To much wood use compared to wood available.
5 arrows out of one log – ridiculous. A master carpenter can make 100 arrows of one log!
You make players waste and use HUGE quantities of wood, yet you give very little space for trees.

This doesn’t help players Roleplay. This makes players stay idle and wait in boredom.

In Ultima Online wood is accessible by at least 3 ways. For fighters, for mages, and for lumbejacks.

d. Realism

Who needs the damn realism? It was an experiment. It failed. You started losing good players. It failed, guys. Realism failed. The very moment you lost Serpardum, you should have recognized that it failed.
Yes, that’s right. He talked to me.

8. CONTROL

Now, we’re finally getting to the warm stuff.

a. GM – master. Player – slave.

Things happen only when GMs make them happen.
Prices are too huge, given how slow work is.
GMs are free to name their price for a certain event to happen, whereas the process must rather be automated with a fixed price. Building is one example.

To make your character possess a special power – you have to spend a year kissing GM’s ass, so they grant you a superpower, which a staff member gave them. You have to play along with their plot.

Caitlin, I, Sian, and others – stole a depot. Quoting Caitlin
“Depot will be placed at *** location. It has to be there ((GM orders)).”

What the smile?! We stole the depot! We put it wherever we want!

b. Means of Service.

Illarion is still treated like a school project belonging to a group of students.
Hello? Wake up! The day you opened this can of worms up – it immediately stopped being your own. You are leaders of a community now! A community that is WILLING to PLAY with YOU.

A Gamemaster’s job is not to command the players. Gamemasters SERVE the players.
These players are here, because THEY CHOSE YOU over a myriad of other different games. It is THEY who make the RP, not Gamemasters. It’s the Player who is giving you their time.

A job of a Gamemaster is to come, and ask “How can I help you?” How. Can. I. Help YOU.

With your current attitude, GMs, can you possibly be any more wrong?

In Ultima Online on the shard I play – there is a single Admin, who is there 12/24, and he listens to the players in terms of what players want. He makes Rp fun, constantly takes control of NPCs, and uses all the flexibility of the engine he possibly can to make us want to play. He doesn’t just do something limiting and then watch us cope with it.

The man actually built us a new level in less than a week! For US. For PLAYERS.

When he decides on a price for something, he asks US, players, is this not too high?

And he comes in and asks, How are you doing, players? What can I do for you on MY shard?
It’s mine, but it’s for you.

I like him better, and I chose him. I choose him to be my gamemaster.
Like I chose Neon, Twania, and a few others.


9. GAMEMASTERS

Oooh, a weak spot. Now, every gamemaster who reads this – probably has sweaty palms. Yes, I am talking about you. I am about to fry your asses right now. I am here to talk about you, like you constantly talk about me.

a. Never available nor accessible.

b. Bad attitude towards players.

c. Favoritism.

d. Covering their own asses and hiding their faults.

Keikan Hiru killed my skills twice for powergaming, and ended up being a horrible one himself. Bash the scape goat to hide your own flaws. The only thing I’m sorry for is that you people banned Muten too. The boy loved this game.

e. False assumption of power.

I would like to elaborate on this one. I do not know what kind of people you are, how you look, where you work, what kind of families you are from, and what insecurities you have. But I got to tell you: Your sense of power in here is ABSOLUTELY abominable.
I can tell right now – insecurities you have a big bunch. Because in every way you can – you try and execute your power. The “Iron fist”, like someone really cares. You are most of the time rude, strict, acting “cool”. This is an online community, guys. There are thousands. No real power.

I am a Super Moderator of hitman2.net. So what? Do I have any power? No.
Do you have nay power outside of this game over these players? No.

You guys are selected to be serving the players. To be watching them carefully and helping them play. Not to punish them, limit what they can do. All you ever do is warning, punishing, warning, punishing. Instead of creating something cool and fun for players to work with.

You give special items and artifacts to your own characters, and to a few selected people.
Here is your mistake. SELECTED people.
You forgot about your damn realism.
In real life – any bastard low roadrat can find and pick up an artifact and create an apocalypse.
In real life – famous powerful people are not chosen by anything. They just do it.

You play multichar, yet no one else is allowed to. I bow to Manuel, who managed to fucking squeeze in a damn load of 15 characters.
10. SVST

Apparently the whole idea of its creation is poor player treatment. For some reason, a bunch of you got the right to think of yourselves as “superior elite players”. You chose others you liked and nominated THEM superior elite. While in reality, this “elite” are just as much a powergamers and power abusers.
God Bless PO Moirear and his loyalty to your SVST, since he is the only shiny spot in that sin pool, it seems.

The fact that you’re so afraid to bring SVST public – is that because you are afraid of people you bashed there. Again, your complex insecurities. Even though you know that these people are miles away from you – you are afraid of them. You feel comfortable talking behind their backs, it makes you feel good and special.

In reality – no. At the forums I administer I have over 1000 members. And I mean a real 1000, not 30 players with 20 accounts each. I have a community, for whom I can open a private board just this very second, and start bashing you, for example.

Does it give comfort or power? No. Instead, I am bashing you here right now. Because the only way to solve anything is to speak up.
And I have been holding a long time before I formed this post.

SVST is bullshit. Otherwise, you’d have no problem bringing it public. Cowardice. Plain cowardice. The fact is, I am not angry, like you may think, I know all the players on Illarion who think bad about me, and discourage players from playing with me. It’s fine.

11. PERSONAL

Once again, I only wrote this post, because I received many IMs and PMs over many channels with questions, well, one question: “Konstantin, why are you leaving Illarion?”

The point is, don’t be hypocrates.
I know what people here really think of me.
If you really care if I stay or leave, I will tell you, that 80% of this community wants me out.

More than that, 80% of this community strongly thinks that I don’t belong here, and that the game will be funner and better without me.
Well, here it is. You made it finally. You did it.

I have no more interest in staying. I will Rp with people who like me in Ultima Online.

From day one I entered this place with one thought: To become the most wanted evil conflicting badass. I wanted to play a thief. But this game is not ready for thieves.
When Neon granted me Thievery Gloves, I got horrible input from, for instance, Kasume:

((Since when did you get a GM item, boy?))

I guess you guys are not willing to accept the idea of free choice. You want GMs to appoint people you like to play roles you want.

Well, have fun. I had enough of it. I am not willing to participate in this.

This game never gives me choice. I was punished for every time I used technical abilities of the client – my last hope. And I am still watched.

That is the personal reason of my leave, and the final one.

And that pretty much sums it up.

Don’t flame me, since I won’t return a single post more on this forum.

Konstantin K,
PO Konstantin, Karmane, Kurtis Kerner, Trogan D. Wolfwood, Groboed Razgrom.

[Cassandra Fjurin]

Why flame you? This is one of the best, structurest, farewell threads i ever seen (Ok its more a "what i don't like in illa"). I am not with your oppinion on all points but i read them and i understand them. Maybe we can implement such things in the future. The most of the things you have mentioned are currently not implemented because of the lack of technical possibilitys.

[Kasume]

It's why I still visit the forums. Hoping changes happen.

[Sam]

I don't know you, I only care that you are leaving in as much as it means one less person to possibly play with. Leave, stay, your choice. Good post though.

Don't agree with :

b. Ships.
Until there's somewhere else to go.

"The mines are placed in such a way that they are horribly far away from the depots. "
Used to be the case, but now with the path by the old forge it's not too far away.


Understand limitations with :

II. Water crossing.
The end of the world problem occurs. Easily got around by only being able to make a bridge from one point of land to another.


I agree with just about everything else, though perhaps wouldn't of put it quite as bluntly.
One last thing. What the heck is SVST?

[Kasume]

Wait wait wait... You're comparing Illarion with Ultima Online? That's a bit... unfair... don't you think? Afterall, it is just the greatest online massive multiplayer ever created.

[Rackere Diplomatre]

Konstantin, thank you. Really, no joke, I thank you very much.

[martin]

Most of the things you present are rather good proposals for what to do in the future.
But if you don't know that most of the things you presented here are simply not possible yet (from a technical point of few), I'd be really disappointed.

I'd say 80% or more of the points you mention are great ideas which we are going to pick up and implement as soon as we can do it (aftet the current changes).

Ultima Online is a nice game, the client was created by professionals who got paid for it.
The cloned servers are many years old and coded by several good programmers and supported by a huge community.

That's the main difference.

Blame us for not having enough time, please. I need that.

Martin

[Domitrio]

I didn't know KK that well, only through Irania, but I agree with him on many things. Probably because I am one of those who play with him on UO.
He's right, but I think so because I've seen this happen before. The RP goes in a flux.
For a time it's awesome, say the drought. Everyone banded together, we had unity, we had purpose. Then what? There was a war, great... we had.... purpose. Now the wars over... and what? We have monsters after our wood. Okay... that's... odd?
But the whole time we're being limited, as he said, technically. Things are being taken away, and little is being added.
Magic books taken, made Domitrio have a quest to learn knowledge. That's good, I had something to do for months. But the thing is, once I had all the runes, I couldn't cast all the spells. How great is that? So my RP was essentially HORSE SHIT!
What did my magic teacher (whom I now know to be less respected by most, and even by me) tell me? He said maybe I'm just not smart enough. This is the point where the players have to make up for technicallities. I WAS smart enough to figure out the entire magic system, stones AND rune transfers, but I'm not smart enough to cast spells.
I sound like I'm ranting, but it's the kind of thing Sian and I have talked about before. The Players are responsible for making the system work. Not the GMs... they're there to keep us in line.
Our RP has to make up for every little problem, and since that works (in theory) nothing is DONE about the problems.
I will have to say though, I played when RP wasn't enforced, this game was fun in a different way. It was challenging, and we DID RP most of the time to have conflicts, and friendships.
I left. Then later on when it was enforced I came back, and it was fun because there we SO much to do. I left once more, and came back when the GMs (I won't even start the arguement about Kiekan and his characters) were ACTIVE in the storyline and not Gods.
I left, and came back when the RP was sound. There were people like Muten, and a lot of the older players who kept the RP going.
Well... now the RP has died down because of petty things like orphanages and citizenships. The GMs will pull it back, and it'll be great again, but it'll be later on. I guess that's why I am leaving now. I want to come back and Illarion be FUN again, and not a job.
Unlike KK though, I might pop back in from time to time to see what's going on, and when it'll be best for me to join again. So this is my impromtu fairwell note, g'day everyone!

~Derrin~
PO Domitrio, Malvita, Darian Orcris, Damien Orcris, Sethian Oakbranch, Shoni, Melwasul, Brumba, Yorlin (Homer) and other ones I can't really remember....

[Josefine da Vince]

Well...
This post makes me wanna quit the game because I think...damn what a stupid game!

But the fact is that it can be fun. I agree that it isn't perfect, but you can't compare it to a game where programers sat one and got money for it. And that's Ultima Online (I'm not talking about the free shards)

I have to agree at some points but others are just bullshit.

As Martin already stated on the SVST Board are online two threads about players rp. One is about you (as you already know) it started with your behaviour turned in a discussion about PG (which didn't come to an outcome) and ended in the flamewar between Sian and me if I remember right.

SVST isn't a threat to players since we only discuss about changes like "Should there be a new mine in Silverbrand?", "Evil Chars vs Good Chars" which easily could be discussed on this general board but to be serious it would turn out in chaos as you can see on Nartak's Farewell thread...Yippi...

That's all I have to say about this post.
Thank you K, I never had a problem with you and I will really sorry that you're laeving. We didn't rped much and it was always fun with you

[Avaloner]

First of all this is a really good post and it really shows some Problems of Illarion ,but i want to put the attention to the following phasage.

3. SKILL GAIN
a. Powergaming
b. Difficulty
Making skills horribly hard to gain does not bring nay fun to the game. The people who gained top skills in previous versions of the game now are making fun of newbies, and protecting their position at the top. You people don’t even understand how ridiculous this looks. This is a game, just a game, it doesn’t give you any real power, it is simply a game which should bring fun. Skills should be easy to gain.

I just say yes ,yes make it easier.I don't know if the gm's plays to less or got bad sources ,but there was no annoying PG in Illarion ever,or atleast since I'm in.
Yes i know i got two chars ,who got no roll and they maybe pg't too,but after the 5 char(to my defence i must say my first two chars where failures forgot the attributes and so on) I realised that rpg is much more fun than just work ,but now ,when you want to play a roll,there is absolutly to much timewasting in it,because i can't play it like i want it.
I needed months ,maybe 4-5, to master a skill that i already got at the half ,before the skillgain get harder.
I just want say that making it easier would be better to make the story's behind the char better,you got more time to rp + you got the things you need for playing the char like you want.
Other things are maybe that the attributes took place in ,without warning ,i got a archer a really masterpiece she was really good and then? Now she can't even shoot a pig and the players just sit there and can do nothing (Blind people in RL can do things ,that normal people can do, too)
well i got a story that she changed from archer to figther ,but its still not ok.
Well i never got a real chance to rp with you ,but a lost player is always sad, and maybe sometimes i said bad things about you and didn't heard both stories so its to late but when you ever got the feeling that i want you out so it isn't actual it was actual for a half year or more.

[Fooser]

and ended in the flamewar between Sian and me if I remember right.

which easily could be discussed on this general board but to be serious it would turn out in chaos as you can see on Nartak's Farewell thread...Yippi...

Contradiction?



Anyways, farewell to all those that are leaving, but it is really hurting the sotry involved with the North, which is pretty much nothing more than a confused mess right now, at least from some peoples view.

[The Returner]

Sian: The PLAYERS make illarion good. The rest sucks.

But all the players keep leaving.

I can't blame anyone, and after reading a couple of other topics, even less.


but I will say, what the hell has gotten into you all? You've spent the last two days cutting each other down, which only lead to MORE people leaving.

If Illarion's community cant stick together, what kind of future does this game have?

@Martin: We know you have a life, and have very little spare time. You don't need to remind us with "poor martin's" Every few days.

@Kasume and Konstatin: Illarion will never be UO, the last thing the world needs is another mmorpg clone. I hope illarion stays unique, no matter how long it takes to develop.

@Everyone involved in the flamewar in the last couple of days: For f**cking shame.


PO Sean-san, Innar Absech


[/quote]

[Sam]

If Illarion's community cant stick together, what kind of future does this game have?

Agreed.

@Martin: We know you have a life, and have very little spare time. You don't need to remind us with "poor martin's" Every few days.

Very harsh. I don't know if you've ever done something that you've put a lot of your time and self into, and had people pick it apart. The criticisms about the game might be true but they still sting. Let's not get personal.

I don't know about the others but I don't want Illarion to become UO otherwise I'd just go and play that. I want Illarion to be the best game it can be. I want it to return to the fun game it used to be but more so.
I know the new client is coming and maybe that will address some\all of the complaints. But unless people are allowed to make criticism without fear then we are doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past (present?).

Flame wars are started when it gets personal instead of concentrating on the game.[/quote]

[Kincent Nolatri]

See the thing is no one wants it to be UO. Its just that there are some things that this game needs.... EXTREMLY BADLY and the fact is this game being unique means nothing if the game lacks fun elements... and one facter you keep staying clear form.. is the gm factor, yes I like most of the gms here but they dont do what needs to be done..

You may have notice that KK was talking about the admin form Ascendence.. that my friends is a true GM/Admin... He wants to see the players having fun. He ask our thoughts on the game before he does something...

I remeber once Aladakal ((aka Sess'sth, Grubba, some others)) threw a party for the players at his newly built house.. Scooter saw this and ask if he could join. He came and joined us and talk with us about ig matters, ooc matters and it was one of the best times we had ever had with a gm...
We said we need a place to duel.. witha healer close by...He thought about it, ask for ideas. And with in two weeks he built us TWO custom battle areas that rule!

There are many problems with this game... and I fear there is little hope left for it

[Kasume]

There are many problems with this game... and I fear there is little hope left for it

I actually disagree.
There are about two things in this game, that piss me off. And are the only problems with it. And it has nothing to do with changing the game at all. It's the people.
Am I going to say? Nah...

[Cliu Beothach]

I think me and Kasume think alike.

[Kincent Nolatri]

Thats one of the things i was aiming at Kasume

[Cliu Beothach]

I just have to do this...
Sorry

Who needs the damn realism?

5 arrows out of one log – ridiculous. A master carpenter can make 100 arrows of one log!

Maybe we do need realism.

oh and one more

You forgot about your damn realism.

To make your character possess a special power – you have to spend a year kissing GM’s ass, so they grant you a superpower, which a staff member gave them. You have to play along with their plot.

Who cares, just rp. You dont have to be known or have a power over certain chars to have fun and rp.

[Grant Herion]

I assume this is a permanent thing then Konstantin?
Pity, a good roleplayer that effected the game considerably leaves us.
I should put in my two cents or my cent or maybe three cents.
I agree with Konstantin and find it frustrating with the GMs having rule over what happens ingame. The GMs should work on helping players with their roleplay and make quests. But they should not be involved with player made governments or guilds.
It really is unnessasary and simply shows the GMs bias for their own characters/characters played by their friends.

[Cliu Beothach]

GMs having rule over what happens ingame. The GMs should work on helping players with their roleplay and make quests. But they should not be involved with player made governments or guilds.

Well they should and shouldn't. They oversee the game, they should have some control, almost ultimate. But they shouldn't abuse it. they should only intervene when ABSOLUTELY necessary

[The Returner]

As if you dont show any leaniency towards your friends, Grant.

GM's well should be involved in IG politics.

Why? Some GM's were around, and involved with politics before they were GM's.

Its kind of bad to change your entire character, based around the fact that it belongs to a GM.

As for quests, GM made quests have actually become fewer and fewer. But for player interaction with quests, I have one word: DROUGHT.

If GM's spend more time helping players with RP, thats about 4 GM's spending ALL their spare time to help something like 500-1500 relatively active characters/players. This not only cuts down on quests, but construction in game, as well.

lllarion needs to focus on two things:

Skills and Skillbase.
Fighting system, and the required fighting system graphics/interface.


Anything else, is just "Oh this is cool, we HAVE to put it in." Well no, nobody has to put boats in. Nobody has to put superpowered swords in. Nobody has to make kitty cat graphics for your pets. This are things so small, that can be replaced with RP so easily, except the powered sword thing. That would be lame.

Illarion isent supposed to be your run of the mill online RPG, its really an enforced-RP text MUD with pretty graphics. Be happy you have anything to look at, because alot of you I know woulden't last twenty minutes on a telnet server or five in a PnP session.

[The Night's Own]

You have nothing to apologize for. In the contrary, I have my own parts to apologize for in that concern of "double-play", but I must say my eyes are pretty open about the community now, that's all I have to my defense.

Also, to my defense, all I can say is that they're a bunch of liars, what concerns the term "Powergaming", so Martin is a mofo for just posting a fragment of the entire thread.

In fact, on SVST, martin claimed I'm a liar. He said I should point out where I have lied and where not. I said I shall never do such a thing until he does it first.

He has yet to comply.

My thing is, I wouldn't accuse anybody about PGing anymore. The term is abolished in my head. I proposed it on SVST, and I proposed it out public, and what did they do? They acted like nothing was going on—I can only guess why—perhaps so they could just point the fingers at "problem players" like you and me (Cassandra: "Oh yeah, I agree with you on this and this and this, but on other things, I don't agree."). What for example, is not in martin's reposting of my post, is the following: the time it was posted. If you knew that the thread "Powergaming" I started on "General Discussions" was posted after I wrote that about you and Shukk, everything would look differently. I'm not pointing it out anymore, anyhow. In fact, I wrote on SVST I wish they'd just ban me by now, I don't care if I piss them off. But the funny part was, I think they just didn't like me. Me as a person. I think I was too active for some people's taste, and I just had a completely different view of what exactly "role-play" is, compared to some of them.

I mean, do these people actually read books? Novels? Do they even understand drama? Or do they just want to ego-play their characters in some fantasy world? To me, role-playing is simply collective story-telling. That's what alot of people don't seem to get in their heads. I've been told many times my views of role-play in concerns to this game are unrealistic, but what exactly is unrealistic about respecting the other player and playing together?

They're currently discussing whether the SVST should go public or not, because I've written several times the stupid board should be public. Of course people defend it. Of course some of them are too chicken. You'd be surprised who's for making it public, and who's against it.

Some of them basically have similar views, and they've talked to me a few times over IMs; I believe they know what I'm talking about. The others just don't give a shit, they're too stuck up with RL (I don't even blame them, in the contrary, I'm only sad that they don't write anything! If they'd at least flame me, I'd know they're alive! But I tell you SVST is like a graveyard.), and Martin is just so scientifical he needs everything spelled out. Why he has to be a complete pain in the ass aside from that—don't ask me. When I had written that I would be temporarily leaving, I had also written to the SVST board: "You need to find a replacement for me." In fact, I had even spoken with one or two of them over IMs about who I'd vote for replacing me on the silly board. Over the whole time, I discussed so much on that board, and the bunch were pretty laid back most of the time like a bunch of stoners or alcoholics. Of course I proposed and critisized little, but when I had written I was leaving, martin just more or less says "I'm disappointed about you." And I'm thinking, WTF?

My proposals that I managed to get across were just as little, but absolutely vital to this fucking game. I proposed this:

• 1. ) Get an experienced player as a replacement for me. I'm too much a newbie to fully grasp the scenario and know enough about things. I felt I don't fit on SVST.
  2. ) Make the SVST public or abolish it.
  3. ) Eliminate the term Powergaming.
  4. ) Get them to get it out of their fucking heads that they are NOT elite. I am totally against considering myself elitary to another human being, I find that manner of thinking sick.

So that's four proposals! Which were also critique, if you could only read all the crap I wrote about them! I wrote so much about these things, and I did my best to follow the rules. I don't know what the hell Martin's problem is, but he must be completely whack in his head.

After all, I've been playing since July 28th. Do the math.
I'm still a newbie.

God damnit, I proposed so little, and that should have already sufficed, but do they take me seriously? Golly no. They act like I never left any critique or proposals? They're stupid smart-butts, and some of them are trying to mob me obviously, like Shukk wrote.

Anyway, yeah, it's an ugly thread. Felt like a solo battle until you and Nartak wrote to the boards.

I finally got around to completely reading your post "Critical Points".

It's freaking awesome.

You really underlined some things I wrote, because you were able to name things directly—you've been around much longer and have naturally seen alot more—my stuff was more generic, and n00bish, but they're so freaking frustrating, they of course wouldn't wait for my dossier that I'm writing. A review of the past five months. Instead, they hurry things and bash me. That's a bunch of pricks sitting up there, I tell you. I'm glad your post somehow got through the thick skulls of people like Cassandra and Martin.

You remember how I flamed Damien? I already begin to feel bad and sorry for it, I'm beginning to have more trouble with the whole machination behind things.

Thanks for opening my eyes.

And you want to hear some really funny news about the SVST? Martin is, imo, trying to lean the discussion in a way that the entire SVST-board is just simply deleted.

You want to hear the truth behind SVST?

The board is a big, big shame.

Anyhow, my point remains. There are so many players (and GMs, like Damien, no matter how much I b1tch about him) here I have had great fun playing with. I played for good five months. I don't know why I'm being put down like somebody who hates this game and everybody's guts. I think that's just some other people projecting their own personal problems onto others. The community is not burdened by specific people. It's just burdened by certain people's sky-scraper-high egos.

I have a whole gajillion faults, I am light years away from any sort of perfection.
But one could also say that of many things. Or other people.
And in the end effect, alot of people just can't count. Some can't read.
It's a sad thing sometimes, but luckily, everybody can have fun in life anyway.

Cheers to you.

-Eric

[The Night's Own]

GM's well should be involved in IG politics.

I disagree. I'll have to say I stand behind what Grant says there.

The GMs should work on helping players with their roleplay and make quests. But they should not be involved with player made governments or guilds.

This as well.

Well they should and shouldn't. They oversee the game, they should have some control, almost ultimate. But they shouldn't abuse it. they should only intervene when ABSOLUTELY necessary

GMs should be adjucators of the rules, or arbiters of a setting. I believe the part of them that is not burdened already enough with technical aspects should be working especially on fleshing out the background of the setting where the game plays in, the main site and Moonsilver are insufficient imo. GM characters involved in storylines—that's always a danger; a liability for biases possibly coming into play, or even worse, pure favoritism. It's nice to have recurring NPCs and such, but they should play a secondary role as much as possible.

In Pen&Paper RPGs, a GM is usually discouraged to use "Deus Ex Machina" by using NPCs to dictate the players' role-play—in those "philosophies" of role-play, the storylines should actually be the culmination of the players' storylines together—the GMs are the ones who flesh out the background and setting that the players can't make up for. Why for example, was there never a GM character who's just a beggar? There are hardly any beggar characters, and a GM character lurking around in such a role would be immensely helpful for role-playing, rather than ones that are knee-deep in politics. We all sense it would be more interesting if just simple players took over certain roles.

In the contrary to what seems to be the general consensus in this community, I believe the GMs that work in that area should work on encouraging the players to interact more with eachother and work out storylines together. I mean, we can tell that the GMs that work more on technical aspects of the games do in fact take on exactly these roles I'm talking about. And I am aware there is the problem of players who simply play with the attitude "entertain me", but I'm positively sure that those story-GMs could work more effectively if they were more "in the shadows" of the action.

[Dónal Mason]

I used to love this game. Then they changed things. I agree with K, that little area by the depot where everyone gathered, that was fun, but they had to get rid of that. Why?

The game is less fun because of less socialising. People have to go way out of town to get some resources, meaning less people in town. They have to spend longer getting these resources because they are harder to get. In order to find the resource you want, you have to search around.

Because it's harder to gain skill, people train longer. Powergame was never a real problem, so why did they have to change things?

Anyway, since I have UO still installed on my computer, I may as well head over to this new shard everyone is talking about.

[Galim]

The fact that you’re so afraid to bring SVST public – is that because you are afraid of people you bashed there. Again, your complex insecurities. Even though you know that these people are miles away from you – you are afraid of them. You feel comfortable talking behind their backs, it makes you feel good and special.

SVST is bullshit. Otherwise, you’d have no problem bringing it public. Cowardice. Plain cowardice. The fact is, I am not angry, like you may think, I know all the players on Illarion who think bad about me, and discourage players from playing with me. It’s fine.

The members are not a secret because they fear the players. they are secret because they want to work for you without any disturbance. what do you think will happen when everyone knows who the svst-members are? They will write pm's to them. complain about this, want to ask for that and annoy them with many other unimportant things which disturb them in their work. and no, that work is NOT to spy on the players, or to discuss their roleplay. and they will act differently ingame. Yes, i think many of you would react differently, even if there is no reason for that. Just because you think you have to. This would disturb and, perhaps, destroy your roleplay and the roleplay of the svst-member. because that he is, a roleplayer.

svst don't discuss if it is good rp to play a smart orc, or other detailed things of roleplay. no, if they discuss some rp, than really bad one. Extremly bad one. Like talking ooc over and over, even after you got warned. like doing ooc which annoys the players behind the screen, which destroys their fun. i think you understand this point. And if they discuss something like that, it won't lead to a punishment. No. Because first they would try to talk with the player. Talk with him about what he did, and try to help him to make it better, so that everyone have his fun.

But some of this is not possible if everyone knows the svst-members. because a bad roleplayer, who knows that he roleplays bad, and who roleplays in a way that he disturb other players, and annoys them and destroys their fun, and who is doing that because he WANT to do that, wouldn't do that near a svst-member.

you should understand, svst-member don't spy. they are normal players. the don't play and thinks "oh, let me see who does bad roleplay and report him" they don't think about something like that when they play. but when someone appears, who destroys the fun of everyone, than they are there. And just then. And that is just a very small part of the work of a svst-member.
The most time over, they discuss other things. Which was already mentioned before.
If it is bad rp to come back from the cross short after you got killed, and without roleplay about that.
Or, like i read before here, does silverbrand needs a new mine (YES...damn...noone asked me about that . YES, it needs one. why haven't i heard before about that discussion ^_^. now i am dissapointed *g*. okay, even me don't know why this have to be discussed at the svst-board ^^))

and so on.

Well, that was the fact at the time while i was still a member of svst. But i left svst a few month ago, so i am not up to date.

[martin]

This will be my very last posting about that topic here. It is just to clearify some things.

In fact, on SVST, martin claimed I'm a liar.

Did I?

Martin is a mofo for just posting a fragment of the entire thread.

I am not allowed to post a whole thread. There is a technical limitation (I cannot post the whole, long thread here), a psychological limitation (noone would read several pages of posts) and a moral limitation (people did not agree to make their postings public, you, however, some kind of stated that you want it to become public anyway, which I interpreted as permission to publish your texts from that board).
You can, of course, blame me for not posting that thread, however, posting it would have been rather stupid.

What I wanted to prove was a rather simple thing:
I don't know what you really want.
One day you claim that someone is a huge RP and that you think about quiting the entire game because of that person.
The next day you are the best friends and you defend his behaviour.

There is another recent case:
You want to leave SVST. I tell the one responsible for that to disable your account there.
Then you say: "Oh, I want to participate on topic X in the SVST!"
I tell the one responsible that he should NOT disable your account there.
Now you say:

In fact, I wrote on SVST I wish they'd just ban me by now, I don't care if I piss them off.

You change your mind much to often for my taste. On one day, you want to leave because of some very mean PG. On the next day, you defend that very person and fight for him.
You want to leave SVST, some hours later you want to stay, some hours later you want to leave.

I am sorry, I really don't know what I should think by now. You first accuse people of PGing and later you state that people should forget about the term "PG" at all. I don't know what your actual opinion is.

and Martin is just so scientifical he needs everything spelled out.

That lies in the nature of my nature, so to say.
This minimizes missunderstandings.

And you want to hear some really funny news about the SVST? Martin is, imo, trying to lean the discussion in a way that the entire SVST-board is just simply deleted.

Thats not the entire truth. The truth is, and I again paste word for word:
I vote to delete this board entirely.

To be honest, I was against it before it actually started. I would feel pissed to the end if I knew about it but were not able to read it.

I vote for making it readable for everyone for 2 weeks and delete it afterwards. It is obvious that it never really did what it was supposed to do and I think we could reach the same thing in a different way.

(sorry for not posting the entire thread or board, again, I am not allowed to do that nor do I have the technical possibilities to make it public)

Martin

[Moirear Sian]

This will be my very last posting about that topic here. It is just to clearify some things.

In fact, on SVST, martin claimed I'm a liar.

Did I?

This is what you wrote on SVST:

Sag mir bitte, was deine endgueltige Meinung ist und welche der von dir offerierten Darstellungen denn nun die Luege ist und welche die Wahrheit.

Your demand here implies that I lied. People who wouldn't think for themselves would probably just assume that. It's already below the waistline that you're twisting around with words Martin, and making me justify myself, so I don't like a complete jackass, but by asking "Did I?" you're just going deeper.
Stop digging this hole of yours, you're only making yourself dirty with it.

You can, of course, blame me for not posting that thread, however, posting it would have been rather stupid.

You obviously have some kind of strange enjoyment of this all, just too bad you'd never admit it.

What I wanted to prove was a rather simple thing:
I don't know what you really want.
One day you claim that someone is a huge RP and that you think about quiting the entire game because of that person.
The next day you are the best friends and you defend his behaviour.

You are joking. I don't know about you, but I talked to these people OOC. This is a game, and our job as SVST is to improve the in-game atmosphere. The more I dug into this story, the more obvious that somebody in this story had been lying. The way I had been informed till then, I had different views on what PG even was. I have been told that my original view on PGing is too strict. I've gotten to know the whole situation better, and I completely agree with myself having been too strict about it. As I've said an almost infinite amount of times, I put heavy emphasis on roleplay. I still do, but now I respect it when someone "powergames" in this game. And when I return back to the case of Varshikar and whether the GMs told a certain player he had support, it's either the Pto Shukk who's lying, or some of the GMs.
I keep getting ignored for these, but I'd appreciate it if people finally realized what I'm saying here. I'd appreciate it if the involved GMs made a statement. A public statement. Again, something from that thread that should have been public (I believe it was Damien and Cassandra who gave statements about how GM "support" works in the game).
It's no coincidence I went from first complaining about them, to eventually defending the Ptos Shukk and Karmane. The entire SVST and all the GMs cannot come up with one striking and "fair" definition of "powergaming", imho. I opened the thread in General Discussion to see what people think about the subject. They think nothing, for the biggest part, and cannot agree on anything definite either.
The term will always be an issue to the community if it's not abolished. That's my final point. It took me a while to develop it, but it's here now, for sure.

There is another recent case:
You want to leave SVST. I tell the one responsible for that to disable your account there.
Then you say: "Oh, I want to participate on topic X in the SVST!"
I tell the one responsible that he should NOT disable your account there.

The same goes for you, then.
I only said once that I am quitting (nowhere did I ever state I'd be away from illarion for good). And then I changed my mind when something constructive finally came up on SVST (proposals to work out an RP guide).
And for that, you say I change my mind faster than you can change underwear. You say I'm a liar.
Please everybody, before you judge me, read these things carefully.

You change your mind much to often for my taste. On one day, you want to leave because of some very mean PG. On the next day, you defend that very person and fight for him.
You want to leave SVST, some hours later you want to stay, some hours later you want to leave.

I'm disappointed that a part of SVST does not want the board to go public at all. Shame on you.
Martin is just mocking me here, over and over again. If you would make the board public, everybody could get their own personal impression about it. If you want to frustrate the rest of the community who feels like they're excluded from some sort of private party—go ahead and delete it or just never make it public.
I will not take responsibility for this, I personally demand you make it public. The people who don't want their posts to be read can go edit them all out, and when everybody gives green light, we lift the curtain. I know I'm sure as hell not going to edit my posts out, and I have no shame in looking as "ridiculous" I'm being made.
What do all SVST members think about that?

I am sorry, I really don't know what I should think by now. You first accuse people of PGing and later you state that people should forget about the term "PG" at all. I don't know what your actual opinion is.

Now you're walking on very thin ice: I'm the one who demanded and still demands a clear definition of PG—namely abolishing the term. On the long run, that's just more fun for everybody, and as you claim yourself, modifications of the skill/gain-system in the upcoming client(s) should fix this over time. Well then, if these things are facts, we should seriously reconsider the meaning of the term "PG", shouldn't we?
Just because alot of people maintained the image with me that this game is something else than I had made it to be, what exactly is wrong about my mind gradually "changing", concerning this subject? I believe I have a much more advanced opinion here, I'm trying to raise the overall tolerance level of all players so people stop thinking in terms of "I'm a better Roleplayer than someone else". I've been playing for five months. You neither seem to respect the fact I'm relatively new, nor do you seem to respect that I have to see various sides of a story before I can make my final decisions and judgements.

This might be my last posting on this thread, given Martin doesn't break his own word, as he claims to almost never do. But then again, I can probably just expect someone else to come by and flame me for some odd reason.

[Bloodhearte]

Brilliant post Konstantin.

I am a member of SVST too. Do I not count as, at least, a halfway clean spot in that wee "sin pool?"

The only reason I'm against making SVST public is because, yes, there have been some posts regarding player problems. And if people see this, they'll start posting "RP police, RP police!" But, as I mentioned on the board, it hasn't served a defined purpose and is therefore useless. I don't give a damn if it's deleted or not, and it would be nice if it were.

We aren't supposed to be "elitists" or any bullshit like that...just logical posters who give out good ideas when necessary.

And you are VERY right on Illarion vs. other games. In my renewed opinion, we should bring Illarion back to the way it was; screw the account system. Just let it open for anybody, and have very active GMs in game and seeing if any rules are being broken. And if they are, solve it! Bring the old skill gain rate back and implement a skill cap!

Back in the good old days, the 25*** days when I first came to Illarion, it was unending fun. And that's what a game SHOULD be...fun. This realism idea is getting out of hand. If I wanted realism, I'd get up from the computer and sit under a tree all day.

Why, I'll never forget the day, when my first character, Klath, was beaten into a pulp and had been robbed of his short sword near the tavern by a group of thugs. Or when an elf and a human were by the entrance of the town, preparing to enter the wilderness and the elf said "I will do my best to protect you with my crossbow."

So, yeah, you're right. Freedom equals roleplay, which equals fun.

But please, K, at least keep in touch. You were probably the best bad boy to have around. Just remain on the forums to see if things change. I've officially left the game myself, but was *barely* convinced to remain somewhat board-active. It doesn't hurt to be here at least. Little time is wasted.

Until then, bon voyage, mon ami.

-PO BH

[Kasume]

You people write too much.
I could sum up my problems in a paragraph or two.

But I did a lot of thinking at school.
The GMs are no longer, in my opinion, the problem.
It is the people.

If I must point the problem out, bang your own head against a wall.

[Dónal Mason]

Ok, a few sentences.....

Martin, stop being such a sour old man.

Players, stop either stating how great Illarion is, or how bad Illarion is.

It used to be fun for me, I have just lost interest. This isn't the game I started playing. That's why I don't play.



Now then. Let's each post the ood points and bad points about Illarion so that we can reach a detailed and structured conclusiom, shall we?

Good points:
Good roleplaying.

Bad points:
Some GMs are not at all friendly. This means you, martin.
Lag sometimes, even with a small amount of players online.
Gathering resources takes far too much time away from roleplay.


That is all I can be bothered to post right now. Please organise your discussion into sections about the good and the bad points of illarion.