Concerning: New Fighting System

Darlok · Post by **Darlok** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 8:37 pm

To your Proposals:

1. "Mob Effect":

Currently it is not that simple to change the system in a way to make parry against more opponents diffcultier.

2. Damagetypes:

This is already implemented, some Armortypes portect better against some special weapons.
Speed is also already different from weapon to weapon.
Maybe these values need to be more emphasized.

3. 'Random Chance'

This is like a critical hit, or do you mean anything else Korwin?

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 9:37 pm

The 'random chance' would be something like this (the formula would be much different)
dex*weapon/target agility+random number=damage.
I'm not certain if the fighting system uses formula's like that however. If the fighting system already has random chance, it needs to be more emphasized. As it is now, a person with slightly lower attributes and slightly lower skills will never beat someone with higher attribute and higher skills. It sort of makes fights predictable if it's only judged on strength, and very little random chance.
Oh yes, as for Pauls concern. First, swords wouldn't be considered 'piercing weapons'. Something like a spear would be considered a piercing weapon. No one uses spears right now, because they do about the same damage as a sword, but take two hands to use (I'm thinking of the battle staff with the metal head, not the throwing spears. By the way, that weapon should be a piercing weapon). If they did more damage, it would create balance.

Bloodhearte · Post by **Bloodhearte** » Thu Jul 17, 2003 8:55 am

I think particular weapons such as swords and axes, and possibly very large daggers should have an increased "parry" effect. Everytime I equip a combination of weapons for each hand (for example, two fireswords), somebody who holds a shield and one sword is bound to kill me very quickly, whereas I don't scratch him or her at all. Swords don't act as armor, but it probably would make more sense if you could deflect an attack from a sword, by using both your swords to knock it away (or even one sword, as the other one tries to hit the opponent). This definetely includes most two handed weapons; too many people in Illarion wear the same old shield+sword combination, and if the opponenet wielding that combo had 3/4 of your experience, he would still beat you if you had a two handed weapon. I always like two handed blades such as the greatsword, war axe, spear, etc. but they simply don't work in an average duel with a player.

paul laffing · Post by **paul laffing** » Thu Jul 17, 2003 9:13 pm

I know. And another thing... my character is pretty good with a war axe, but if he attacks someone with even the slightest amount of parry, he can not hurt them. Instead of parry deciding if you're hit or not, there should be a seperate skill called blocking or something of the sort because how come only parry can block, even if you're not using a weapon that uses parry?

Bumbol Woodstock · Post by **Bumbol Woodstock** » Thu Jul 17, 2003 9:57 pm

Parry is blocking Paul. So it is one in the same.

Galim · Post by **Galim** » Fri Jul 18, 2003 5:35 am

don't know if this idea was posted already, but i will write it down

.

could it be possible that a charakter who wears a full helmet cannot see as much as a charakter with an open helmet? i mean, if somone wear a closed helmet he will see a smaller part of the map than with an opened. this would be more realistic, and it would be a better change for a fighter with a opened helmet.

Konstantin K · Post by **Konstantin K** » Fri Jul 18, 2003 3:43 pm

I thought shields and armor were responsible for blocking. Parry is when you dodge the hit and don't get hurt. If you have higher parry, your opponent misses you more. Shields and weapons, such as double swords, double daggers should be not responsible for parry, but for blocking. When you are not quick enough to parry a hit (avoid it), you use your weapons and armor to block it (reflect it). If you fail to do both, then you should get hurt.

Hermie · Post by **Hermie** » Fri Jul 18, 2003 4:52 pm

Shields block, armour limits damage.

paul laffing · Post by **paul laffing** » Fri Jul 18, 2003 6:27 pm

If parry is blocking, then how come you can only raise your blocking with swords? You can still block with an axe, can't you?

Bei Tian Kensai · Post by **Bei Tian Kensai** » Fri Jul 18, 2003 10:33 pm

Bei Tian watches as a sharp sword slices through the wood of pauls tiny axe....

hmmmm

paul laffing · Post by **paul laffing** » Fri Jul 18, 2003 11:30 pm

Excuse me, but war axes are made completely of metal, last time I checked. In fact, its like that with every axe. You need no wood to make any axe so how come they can not block just as well as swords?

Darlok · Post by **Darlok** » Fri Jul 18, 2003 11:38 pm

What the hell are you talking about?
Is this discussion part of a new possible fighting system? I dont think so.

Stop this spamming at once!

paul laffing · Post by **paul laffing** » Sat Jul 19, 2003 12:23 am

I didn't spam.

Parry means to deflect or ward off. Shouldn't parry be raised by any weapon? And shouldn't the skill of swords be called swordsmanship?

The speeds of the weapons hitting do need to be accented. And the system has to be kept balanced. Axes hit slowly, but are stronger. Swords hit faster but are weaker. Balance is the key to a successful fighting system.

Darlok · Post by **Darlok** » Sat Jul 19, 2003 12:32 am

Some things Paul:

1st:
I really would love to see some decent structure in your posting, collect your ideas and bring them in one single posting.

2nd:
Weapons do have defence vaules, they ever got and will ever have.

3rd:
Who said that axes have to be stronger than swords?
They both hurt badly if you manage to hit.
Damage amount will differ from weapon to weapon, not from weapon class to weapon class and depends on your skills.

4th:
As i said in my very first posting, this is not the place to discuss about items!

Bloodhearte · Post by **Bloodhearte** » Sat Jul 19, 2003 9:41 pm

In my opinion, it would be improved to have a 'counter attacking' feature. I like the fighting system in Illarion, but the battles are often too 'one sided.' Rarely is there combat where both opponents hit each other, it's usually where one person gets hit and the other is pretty much invincible. However, I think fights would be more challenging and entertaining this way; let's take opponents labeled A and B.

If A were to try to hit B, but B wasn't damaged due to his armor, fighter B can catch fighter A off guard, and deal a small amount of damage to fighter A, because fighter A is recoiling from the result of the first attack. The programming would probably be too complicated, but it's just a thought.

If this idea were implemented also, it would prevent everybody from using fireswords all the time. Certain weapons have certain speeds, so if you were up against an armor clad warrior, you might want to equip something fast like a silver dagger, and win your duel based on counter attacks. Most good warriors these days are very powerful, but slow although they still win the fights. At least warriors could also be speedy and have some fair amount of chance.

Darlok · Post by **Darlok** » Sat Jul 19, 2003 9:48 pm

This isnt such a bad idea, but there is a flaw in it.

This Proposal would require a totaly different system of combat rounds, much more "turn based".

e.g.:

Player A Attack Turn
Player B Defender Turn
Player A Critical Miss
Player B Counter Attack

But our current system is simultanous, Attack and Defence are in the Turn of Player A already.
So theoreticly, when both can attack at the same time, both could miss at the same time and both would be able to counter at the same time.
That would be a bit unlogical, isnt it?

Bloodhearte · Post by **Bloodhearte** » Sat Jul 19, 2003 9:56 pm

Now that you proved it would be like fighting a mirror, I suppose it is illogical. I suppose it came from all those years of playing turn based roleplaying games like the Exile series.

On a combat system that isn't turn based, it's a bit difficult to come up with an idea for the speedy fighters to have a chance over the power fighters. In this case, I still go with the old idea of implementing a 'stealth' skill that can perhaps have a better chance of sneaking past the armor for a weaker, but successful attack.

Adano Eles · Post by **Adano Eles** » Sun Jul 20, 2003 11:56 am

Maybe it would be an idea to implement different fightning tactics. For example the possibility to switch between an offensive and defensive mode.
Offensive would mean a bonus on attack values but at the cost of a lower defense, defensive would mean higher defense but lower attack values.
I'm not that sure but it shouldn't be too much programming work (after all, only the values need to be changed according to the selected mode), and it would make the outcome of a fight a little bit less predictable. And I must admit, I like fighting systems which allow at least a little bit of player control.

Vindigan · Post by **Vindigan** » Sun Jul 20, 2003 1:53 pm

If diferent fighting styles were put in, there could be a special one as well for each race. like there would be aggresive and cautious which everyone would get, but if you were halfling there could be one called stealth or somthing where your speed is increased or if your an orc, bloodlust which will increase strength but risk getting hit by critical hits. Dont know about rest of the races though, maybe accuracy for elfs that improves archer skills.. just somthing i thought of

Gorr Tarak · Post by **Gorr Tarak** » Sun Jul 20, 2003 11:57 pm

Mal eine Frage am Rande:
Werden die alten Kampfwerte eines Chars in das neue Kampfsystem übernommen?

Gorr

Darlok · Post by **Darlok** » Mon Jul 21, 2003 12:06 am

Gorr's Question was:

Will current Values of the Character be importet in the new fighting System?

This fully depends on the new System, maybe not, if its to much different from the current (what i doubt at the moment).

If there is just a new Skill, our Characters start of course without this skill but will learn it with time.

If a Skill is dismissed, maybe it will stay on our list, but will remain useless and without effect.

Konstantin K · Post by **Konstantin K** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 1:05 am

Aren't daggers already more fast and accurate than larger swords although they make less damage?

I think a character should actually learn weapons themselves too.
If a person specializes in swift dagger combat, they should become better and better at using particular daggers. The weapon should do more damage or gain more speed as it is practiced. So that if a dagger fighter got his slashing skills way up using daggers, should he try a heavy sword and shield - he should be less effective. That would encourage people to either stick to one style, which is faster to learn, or become versatile, which would be harder.
Then the person who had equally great experience with all melee weapon types, would be an ultimate close combatant.
Kind of like with concussion and slashing weapons now, except skills should be something like this:

Daggers (and knives)
Light swords (short sword, longsword)
Heavy swords (Broadswords, Fireswords, two handed swords)
Axes
Staffs

Another skill should be separate from these, and should be called something like

Tools.

It would be something like puncture weapons now and would be responsible for a person's ability to use everyday tools as weapons (shovels, sickles, scythes, fishing rods, etc.)

And of course, an important skill should be

Hand-to-hand.

Fists should be a skill apart from concussion weapons. The reason is because in real life fighting with fists is not much like swinging a mace or a morning star or a hammer.

Thank you.
With respect, Konstantin.

-------
PS.

I do not know if this is allowed for this topic, but I see this as part of a fighting system, since the stealth skill was already brought up anyway. I see stealth as more of an ability of a character to become invisible when close to a tree or a building, or at least transparent or poorly visible for another char at a far distance.
Also, a stealth skill could enable a person to hide their ID number, so that they would not come up at the hit of F12. That perhaps could be implemented in the future when the vocations are finished. That would help thieves and rangers to be clandestine and sneaky.

Bloodhearte · Post by **Bloodhearte** » Mon Dec 01, 2003 2:30 am

I believe the technical skills (the ones in the shades of red) have too powerful of a bearing on how one would win or lose in combat. The winning of a battle should be determined based more on weapon choice, armor choice, and preset attributes rather than skills; the skills should merely be supplementary, to give more of a thrill and sense of danger to battle rather than one person with high stats killing off 8 other people with stats not equal, but barely lower.

For example, let's say fighter A is skilled at a 7/10 on combat skill, and fighter B is skilled at a 10/10.

-The way it is now, fighter B can be wearing weaker armor and maybe a two handed weapon/weak one handed weapon and easily win the battle simply because he's slightly more skilled than A.

-With the new system, possibly, fighter B would have a higher chance of winning, but it wouldn't be guaranteed; at least fighter A has a winning chance.

-In real life, even the most skilled combatants of, say, martial arts can lose to a lesser skilled martial artist. Why? Because they are mortal, they make mistakes, and may not take ever factor into consideration. The lesser skilled person may be able to take advantage of a simple mistake and turn the tide of the battle for himself.

-So perhaps if possible, the outcome of a fight can be determined in equal fractions; 1/4 skill, 1/4 armor choice, 1/4 weapon choice, and 1/4 attributes. I do not know the fractions the way they are now, but as mentioned before, I believe combat skill has too much of a bearing.

But wait, there's the problem of armor/weapon choice. Every fighter who's a fighter seems to walk around with the same old combination; firesword, plate mail, and full covering. The firesword problem is solved now, by making them rare items, but there's still a matter of the constant use of lion and knight shields.

For this reason, I would propose an equal advantage and disadvantage to the more higher class weapons/armor. For example, a simple, round metal shield could have less defense, but enable the fighter to swing faster with his other hand in combat, whereas the knight shield would give higher defense, but make the swing of the weapon slower because of the shields' size and weight. At least the fighter with a preference for speed and agility can have the possibility of winning against a slow, armor clad sentinel. I understand there are different speeds to different operating equippment now, but I think they could be better varied.

Raffa Redwillow · Post by **Raffa Redwillow** » Mon Dec 01, 2003 3:50 am

I have not read this entire post for it would take much to long, but I scimmed it for simalar suggestions such as this.

My suggestion would be that armor/weapons break over a period of time. this (in my opion) would do several things.

A: Prevent constant powergamers by forceing them to buy armor of repeated courses of fighting.

B: (sorry Darlok, this is about the economy) this would fix the saturated armor situation therefore creating jobs like "armor smith".

Another suggestion would be that perhaps scorions would attack at the shins and ankles, therefore chest armor would be fairly useless against them.

paul laffing · Post by **paul laffing** » Mon Dec 01, 2003 4:49 am

What the fighting system needs is a facelift.

First of all, the weapon you use should have a big impact on parry. There shouldn't be just one parry skill. You need to learn to parry differently with every weapon. You can be an expert fist-parrier, but that doesn't make you an expert parrier with the sword.

Second of all, there should be more fighting styles. Maybe there's fencing, wrestling, tae-kwon-do, etc. It should be like the mage/druid system. You need to buy books or have a teacher teach you (when implemented) a new fighting form. Then, you need to learn this form to a certain degree before you can learn a new kind of fighting form. How many forms you can learn depends upon your intelligence.

Finally, for the actual fighting. The first thing is, your choice of weapons versus their choice of weapons. Fists are the basic weapon. They will do well against any weapon, but can not parry well. There should be a new skill called dodging that takes care of that. Swords are the highest form, but you should only be able to use them successfully if you are skilled. If you aren't skilled, there should be a chance of hurting yourself. So, anyway, to continue. Fighting should be more interactive. You should be able to respond on your keys to an opponents attack. You should than be able to pick options of what style/form you're going to use, where you're going to attack, how strong you are going to attack, and how quick you are going to attack. The opponent can not see your options, but they can see the blow coming toward them. They can move their keypad so that they're blocking, if they're fast enough, and so on. The one problem with this is lag. The person with more lag is a dead man.

Willem Time · Post by **Willem Time** » Mon Dec 01, 2003 9:55 pm

Maybe adding a "Knock out bar" could help aboutthe arguments of wepons like say you fought some one but you were using fists what this woould do is instead of taking damage it would remove from the knock out bar and it would take away health in at samll samll portions but if you where fighting some one with heavy armour it would no almost nothing. and to stop powergaming you would not leavel up anything except conncussion wepons. and as your knock out bar or whatever they call it gets low you start to slow down missing shots because your tired and dazed ifyou journy inside a powergamers mind there insticts are this "find sword find monster kill monster" so if they pick up a weak or old dagger it wont do that much damage but instead knock out enemy

Ezor Edwickton · Post by **Ezor Edwickton** » Mon Dec 01, 2003 10:42 pm

I haven't read this whole topic yet but i think that a great imporvment to the fighting system would be a decrease in parry with an increased number of attackers. Meaning if you are being attacked by two or more attackers, your parry will decrease. In real life it would be increasingly hard to defend off multiple attackers.
I feel this would make for better strategies and role playing. One character could not go around being invensable because his parry is so high. If there were enough others they could defeat him easier.

Konstantin K · Post by **Konstantin K** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 2:37 am

Right now, a person using dual blades is at a strong disadvantage.
Now way a person uing two short swords or two daggers can defeat a person with a same sword and a shield.
I think that is not quite right. A player with shield, as Bloodhearte said, will have longer time raising a sword, and will be less accurate because of shield's size and weight. A player with two short blades, like daggers, if aided by some decent swordsman skill, should have an easy time finding holes in cumbersome defense of a knight shield.

Right now weapons don't give enough defense. Daggerfighters are given no chance against heavy swords. Two daggers, if crossed together, can block a sword's blow. But currently, if I try holding two daggers against a sword, I am dead meat.

Zare · Post by **Zare** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 8:16 am

I only really skimmed through this discussion, so if I'm repeating anything, please forgive me.

One of my ideas for fighting is that, when you raise your skill with one type of weapon, all the other skills will very slowly go up along with it. My reason for this is because realistically, a great warrior that is very skilled with a sword is most likely going to beat a farmer in a fight if they're both using axes, a weapon that neither of them have ever used before. Of course, the other skills that the person wasn't training on would go up very slowly, that way there wouldn't be suer strong fighters. This also wouldn't work with ranged weapons because they are so much different than melee weapons.

My other idea is for there to be some sort of cool down period when people cannot raise their experience. In example, if somebody killed multiple mummies, they would only get the experience from the first one they killed until after 5 minutes or so after they killed the first one. I think that that would reduce the effects of powergaming.

Rynt · Post by **Rynt** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 7:22 pm

In one MUD I play, my character wields two short bladed weapons. Tanto, short sword Etc. Now, I use my left hand weapon for parrying, and my right one for attack. To be honest, the current fighting system is highly unbalanced. Wearing all that armour must slow down your attacks, make it easier to dodge and harder to defend, wouldn't it? Maybe a penalty should be added to wearing heavy armour and weapons.