Problem in The Community

[Noradur]

i think you put that down pretty well.. one more thing i'd like to add..

if you have the feeling someone is stalking you or just in for the cyber and all that stuff, where it is your right to ignore one, please not only ignore the player, but send a message to the gms so we can work on getting rid of his sick ass.

[Rugh'toh]

Make an 'elitist place', which can be accesssed by only those chars who have proven to play constantly at high RP level. Everyone who does not play well in this place will get temporarily banned. There is no clouding, but permanent death for every char. Players are responsibvle for ANYTHING they do there with the char. Unlogical behaviour will be hardly punished. In this special place, however, chars can gain very good items and skills by good RP. So it is sort of 'paradise' everyone wants to get into.
One 'god' would be needed for watching voer rules and good RP, of course.

I know its rather late, but this is the worst crap I ever saw, because now everyone with high powered skills and top notch equipment could kill just everyone and who decides what "high end" rp is?

Any response is better than none. Anyway, you have seen some obvious weaknesses in the concept. Even when I know that the Staff will never ever be willing to let such a place exist, I will go on and try to explain the idea of 'elitist place' a bit more.

First, what is high level RP? In fact, a question hard to answer. Though, I would underline what Rosendil has written: Stick to your character. Respect other characters. Accept the consequences of your actions.

People hardly will PK one another when such a place would exist, simply for the fact that the murderers would be killed by the rest of 'elitist kingdom' afterwards. Quite easy way of keeping balance.


There would be more things to explain for this idea, however, I want to point out only one thought behind such an idea. I want to give brief statement to the question: Why would such a place make sense?

Answer: One important reason why people play Illarion is that they want their player to be successul. Your character can be successful in many ways: Either by being a very good warrior, a good mage, a very skilled crafter, the leader of a town, the one who has explored the whole island. If one has reached what he desired, well, then one has to look for new IG challenges.
Wouldn't it be exciting if there would be mysterious place, where only experienced (in what way ever) would hace chance to come to? A kind of meta-place, which to enter is a high privilege? A place rumors and histories are told about? And the only chance to access it is not by having the best skills and the best equippment, but by making CONSEQUENT roleplay with your char?

Elitist kingdom would demand good and consequent roleplay and would incite players to make consequent and thus good roleplay! Elitist kingdom would be an in game game mechanism to increase level of roleplay - however, only for those who are willing to.


I know that this may sound like a strange and freaky idea. Though I think there are some aspects it is worth to think about.

[Korm Kormsen]

Rugh'toh,

your suggestion allready exists.
you just don't recognize it, because it is in phase 3 actually.

an island for the elite. with some features, that keep the unwanted away.
it is called Tol Vanima. it has a merchant, nobody but elves can use.
and it got boring for the elves. (phase two)
so they swarmed the rest of gobaith.(mainly greenbriar and trollsbane)with the result, that the whole island is "infested" with elves. - and the island tol vanima is deserted...

the reason is simple, i think:
elitists can't stay only among themselves. they need "lesser beings", to show off their quality.

(before you get out your lighters and matches: i did not say, that all/every elves are elitists.)

[martin]

But I have also trained or worked with other Characters IG and this was fun, too.

And this sentence you simple ignore ? and the Link ? Its an error in your interpretation I would suggest CHAT is the ONLY way to RP martin, and I have never done and said this... ( points to the quote ! )

But implicitly you said that.
Because you do something (smith or whatever), "someone" comes and you "start to RP". That means you did NOT RP before, when smithing (in your understanding).
Right?

Martin

[Alytys Lamar]

Wrong martin.. all what I do ingame is RP. If my Char walks from Varshikar to TB ..its RP, to fight in the krypt against Mummies is RP... every single move is ROLEPLAY with my Char.

Blame my lacking english knowledge if you like, maybe I have made this point not clear enough to satisfy you, quite the thing i really want to say was --- if another Char comes during such an activity and greets I never would ignore him ( and is she/he a badass I kick him @Aeghi or tell it to a GM )

[Aegohl]

Holy crap. Korm hasn't disagreed with my post here yet, either. Something is seriously wrong with me....

[Korm Kormsen]

Something is seriously wrong with me....

may be, you are growing up?

[Cuthalion]

Rugh'toh,

your suggestion allready exists.
you just don't recognize it, because it is in phase 3 actually.

an island for the elite. with some features, that keep the unwanted away.
it is called Tol Vanima. it has a merchant, nobody but elves can use.
and it got boring for the elves. (phase two)
so they swarmed the rest of gobaith.(mainly greenbriar and trollsbane)with the result, that the whole island is "infested" with elves. - and the island tol vanima is deserted...

the reason is simple, i think:
elitists can't stay only among themselves. they need "lesser beings", to show off their quality.

(before you get out your lighters and matches: i did not say, that all/every elves are elitists.)

Tol Vanima has never been an elitist island, but you are right. Just like Silverbrand noone ever stays there. The reason is that there is nowhere there you can train and that there are not as many elves as humans so you are not guaranted anyone to rp with even IF all elves had stayed on Vanima. It is by no means an elitist island as any elven char can live there. It has nothing with how well you rp to do.

I think it was you who said that only german players want to play dwarves. This is not really true. I tried once, but could not get acceptance from Silverbrand. The king only speaks german, and the few dwarves who speak english did not have the authority to make my char a member. I even made a post on their forum, but got ignored.

[Vern Kron]

Everyone has a different opinion of role play, and everyone has a different reason why there's is right, and some even claim that their opinion is the law of roleplaying. But that is not true. Role playing is putting YOURSELF in your CHARACTER'S shoes. YOU ARE PLAYING THEM.
If I was to make this explainable ig, it would be something like, "Your body is sometimes possessed by a demon, in which it acts through you, and when it is not in your body, you sleep, or perform actions, that the demon may or may not remember. The demon is a guest in your body, and while it is not welcomed, it will do what it will do. It will leave your body after a couple of hours, and you will feel drained."
So...I am kinda rambling, so to sum it up, I mean this.
I believe, that the standard of role playing, is not actually getting worse. I believe that a certain few players, are causing other players to stop roleplaying, because they are actually upseting them ooc. Such as...#me thinks some one powergames too much. #me thinks about summoning an ogre to unplug his computer. That kind of stuff will make players made, and even if they were having very good roleplay, it will instantly switch people into an ooc mindset, so do not make snide comments about powergaming, or telling some one to quit the game, it will just cause hostility amoung the PLAYERS, which is not neccasary, and should be avoided completely.

[Taliss Kazzxs]

My big deal is how extremely cocky the general people of the game have become. The way it is now nothing is really taken serious in game. The tone at hand these days is "eh dragons attacking, ah no problem we can stop anything ..remember the lich warz?" This general arrogants is the complete opposite of the element of fear this game needs. I suggest a ****slap to knock the folks down a few pegs. Have a large force (gm/quest team) playing a militant king or *cough lizard, to step in and attempt to capture a city or multiple ones, and in doing so utterly spank those that resist. In this action it would show that you are no going to win every battle without a fear in the world and at the same time put a gm in charge of a city as it was debated being done in the past, as of which I thought was a great idea and would allow the staff to give the authorities influence to put the game where it needs to be through acts of the government.

[Thorwald]

Also ich muß ganz offen und ehrlich sagen , bis jetzt hab ich nachdem ich mir das alles mal so oberflächlich angesehen habe , die letzten fast 6 Jahre kein RP betrieben .
Mein Grund das zu sagen , nachdem ich gestern besuch von einem GM im Spiel bekommen habe und mit ihm ein längeres Gespräch geführt habe , und im Anschluß das getan habe was er mir so als RP empfohlen hat zu tun .
Ich persönlich wenn ich ganz alleine in einem Raum stehe und etwas schmiede und dann durch #me zeigen soll das ich zB schwitze bei der Arbeit . oder das es weh tut wenn ich mir auf die Finger Schlage , oder das ich mich Ärgern soll wenn etwas mißlingt , naja ich halte das für mich nicht für Rp sondern das ist einfach nur läßtigund hat zumindest mir gestern gehörig den Spass genommen .
Ich sag nichts das zu tun wenn man nicht alleine ist sobald ein zweiter Spieler auftaucht und ich mir auf die Finger klopfe , ja dann ist es RPzu schrein weils weh tut .
Aber wie gesagt wenn ich extra in einen eigenen Raum gehe um alleine zu sein und ungestörrt bei der Arbeit und das dann mit den #me auch tun muß nee dann hab ich die letzten Jahre was falsch gemacht .
Ich dachte immer über die die fragten was ist Powergaming wann fängt es an und ab wann ist es RP : alleine wenn du das fragen mußt machste schon PG . jetzt muß ich sagen und offen zugeben , ich bin reiner PGler und am Rande sobald ich nicht alleine Spiele RPler .

[Juliana D'cheyne]

I believe that a certain few players, are causing other players to stop roleplaying, because they are actually upseting them ooc.

I fully agree with this, trying to ignore these ooc remarks gets frustrating. But, I also think if a PO plays themselves, there is more cause to get frustrated then if they play a char with a background all their own. I never mind ooc remarks on my char for clarity sake and will usually go along with another's idea... for instance if some say you can not see a ghost, fine... I will feel a coldness... if some say a ghost can't whisper, fine.. I will go along though could RP something like a cool breeze possibly heard with faint words as if far away.... (well, you get the idea). IMO people need to be a little lenient of others RP and just use ooc to clarify and if you refuse or fully disagree with the RP, just leave the area, or let them know your wish not to RP that particular scene ooc rather then a lot of ooc remarks possibly getting both PO's angry.

I think some of the confusion/ideas coming from RP is what exactly needs to be RP'd also. Being a graphic RPing game, I have not always RP'd something that is very well seen ig. For instance, if my char walks over to another to whisper, would you simply RP the whisper? After all, it is obvious my char walked toward them, though if she places a hand on the shoulder, this should be RP'd. If my char is sent/pushed to a different place "tile" ig, wouldn't it be up to me as PO whether this "push" knocked her over, or magic was used and I wound up in a different spot, but in the same condition that I started out as (unless there was an #me specifying a hard shove)? The worst IMO ooc are related to something ig that should be ig and aren't.. put as ooc. How is my char to respond to something like ((you should do it this way... whatever RP it involves.. it makes it easier to divide etc., or I can still see you due to...... )) when it is obvious my char is trying to hide. If you don't agree with it, place it ig... this is much less "personal" than an untoward ooc remark. #me stares at the eyes curiously "I knew someone else that had eyes almost identical to yours"

As far as the element of fear and what my char needs to RP... I would think part of this up to the PO. Yes, my chars feels fear, some more then others, but my "crazy" fighter when she was at her worst didn't. It is possible due to background, that a particular char may not. In fact, I have yet to meet a "normal" char ig ..one that I would assume would act as if in medieval times.. but that is as it should be, after all, this is a game and the PO wants to enjoy their char, be it a strong uber fearless type, or shy retiring type. There are as many ideas for RP as there are PO's, that is the thing to remember most IMO., and the more PO's ig, the more ideas there are on what is correct RP and what isn't (except for the real nooby who doesn't read the rules and just goes around trying to PK). Responding to some of the older PO's, those ig a long time.... the RP may not have "gotten worse" but just changed due to the imagination and ideas of new PO's.

People also need to be a little more forgiving.. it is possible that an #me was not seen ig or not translated correctly due to the language difficulties. I have missed some #me's due to looking at the keyboard typing (and you do NOT want to see my typing if I don't look at it ). I have also completely lost who I was RPing with if they left the screen while I was typing.. . If I see an #me in German of which I don't understand, I will respond by an #me also and not simply walk off. A lot of this is just being polite.

[Nitram]

To write what Thorwald wrote in a few words:

He thinks its not necessery to emote every engine action on his own while working in case no other player who could hear what he writes is around.

And i fully agree with it.

OOC

Well The main problem here is that many many of our players are elitist, not able to do some kind of dynamic roleplay ( so fit their roleplay to the roleplay of the others ) and think their roleplay is the best and only way to do it. I could drop in some names for those players now, but I won't do, since everyone is able to do this on their own.

Not every situation ingame requires a OOC discussion. In fact their are only a few things that need ooc discussions. So as Newbie helping or the announcing that the player is away for a moment to get some beer and cookies. Even short notices about funny typos. Noone cares for those. And beside the Newbie help everything is done with less then 3 lines of occ.

But how to avoid and get rid of those ooc discussions? Well infact you players leave the GMs no chance to lower the amount of OOC. The players are still supporting each other against the GMs. We can't enforce the laws in case you don't let us know who breaks the rules ingame. I have no problem with enforcing to stop all OOC discussions, beside the ones named aboth. But the problem is I don't know who discusses that much OOC ig, so i can't let them know right away that he/she did something wrong.

Thats what the !gm command was made for. Clearly written pages will be allways handled, even after all involved players logged out.

You as the players get it as the first who breaks rules. Let the GMs know who does. Then and only then we can handle this. To say "ah. Someone did this and that is this okay?", "no, who did this?", "Ah, just wanted to know, don't tell you the name he meight get problems" is just crap. Does not work this way.

What has to be roleplayed?
At least everything that is not visible by the engine and would be visible for everyone around.
But its never wrong to write a line more.

Fear
Thats normally something that should be done well by the roleplay of our players. But the most self named perfect roleplayers play characters with absolutly no fear of everything. I sadly have no idea how to change this.
( Permadeaths by monsters!!!! )
We have to many uber characters and to less normal characters.

Nitram

[Djironnyma]

Fear
Thats normally something that should be done well by the roleplay of our players. But the most self named perfect roleplayers play characters with absolutly no fear of everything. I sadly have no idea how to change this.
( Permadeaths by monsters!!!! )
We have to many uber characters and to less normal characters.

Nitram

I think to make it able, that a char can die permanent again his own will in quest or fights against other chars could help here. Sure, it wouldn't solve the problem complete, but if the player must fear, that he lose his char if he do something to risky or to dump, he would maybe play also his char with more fear.

[AlexRose]

Yeah but in pvp this would make being kicked, lagging and random pks be a big problem.

[Djironnyma]

i say CAN die not would every time if he get ghosted.....

[Miklorius]

1.) If I am all alone, emoting while crafting/fighting is IMO quite senseless (I could just make a macro which I load every X minutes). Emoting has to be dynamic to the situation.

2.) I don't know how much OOC/IG information mixing really happen, but OOC discussions/reflections afterwards is at least part of PnP-RPGs. Problem is that such discussions usually get very emotional here.
OOC talk IG is IMO not a big problem as long no one is harmed in his play (ergo: do it only if you are alone).

3.) Fear: Kill faster in quests when POs/their characters act "wrong"/stupid. Do not use dragons and such for crap storylines. Maybe increase somehow the downtime before you can get resurrected.

4.) This "Elitist"-blah is a killer argument. Sometimes it appears to me that rational (!) criticism is dismissed with "you are an elitist, shut up, YOU are the bad RPer". Criticism without direct problem solutions could be annoying but also be necessary.

[Richard Cypher]

I am very scared of dying. I might lose SKILLS! I prefer not to have my player get owned though and RP accordingly. Out of the past two months I have been clouded three times. Twice by GM's with lockpicks. Once by a shadow skeleton and the game lagged horribly bad and my whole screen froze. So some people do RP being scared of death accordingly.

If someone gets a dagger to my throat RPwise and says give me all you have, I start stripping. It is all about the RP some people got it, others do not.

[AlexRose]

I personally think if the rp aspect is not enough, the engine should suffice to make people be scared of death more. I suppose this applies more to those with higher skills and better items . When I started playing I used to get pked on a bi-weekly basis, but now.. bleh I barely ever get now.

I dunno how to solve the problem; maybe raise skill loss or something? Or they continually lose skill until they are in a bed xD. But really, although random pks happen occasionally, putting a higher level of punishment for dying might be a good thing. It's easy to avoid being killed if your char is scared. e.g. Will not say something offensive to someone stronger than them; will not go for a wander in the dragon cave for a laugh etc.

[Vern Kron]

See...thats part of the problem though. I am terrified of having my character die. The ill punishment is fine, and making it worse, would flat out make me scared. With creatures popping up in places they normally aren't seen, E.G. in town, at portals...probably summoned, but, who knows. Making the death punishment worse would make the roleplay aspect ridiculus to the normal folks. There are a few, but that would make them even less common. A farmer who also happens to be a skilled fighter, will become more common.

[AlexRose]

This is why you run away, shut the doors and barricade them . And this seems natural that farmers and scholars would be scared of mummies and skeletons, and even flies; whereas strong warriors and mages would laugh at the thought of cowering at such "weak creatures", while they quiver when they catch sight of a demon .

[abcfantasy]

Hmm...
Alex's last line gave me to this idea:

Maybe the "punishment" of being clouded should vary according to the slayer's level/skill?

*feels like he's discussing roughly the same things on two different posts* :O

Edit: And Vern Kron reminds me of my early days of illarion. I used to 'really' feel the fear from monsters or known criminals. Ehh, I wish I was still like that :\

*remembers his heart beating fast when his char was with Dain in the cellar playing with a molotov*

[Vern Kron]

Most people know, that even if you run, a mage can teleport to you, faster then you can run, and a door will not really hold them off.

A bee, while nt being able to teleport or open doors (i think) may be able to poison you, and make you extremely sluggish or fall an wriath in pain. So he would still be roleplaying, but would roleplay death, under the current system. The opposite would be, you see a bee, and the farmer suddenly would be able to fight it off, without a problem.

Also, you can not see which characters are stronger, which makes it slightly difficult to tell.

[AlexRose]

Don't annoy a pc mage, and run away from a bee instead of getting hit by it. Maybe the person closes the door in the hospital, shouting for help, their mouth foaming, they quickly pull out a handful of coins and leave it in their open hand for someone to get them an antidote. Most likely the bee will not kill you anyway, and bees are only summoned by mages. So again, don't piss off mages.

Bees are fun.

[Vern Kron]

Except, No one pissed off the mage. He just walked up, summoned the bee and declared it as "Research."

[Retlak]

Avalyon needs a ban!

[Cuthalion]

There is a simple soloution to the question: "How to make the players fear death". In ceratin other rpgs, death means a one month "ban" of that character. I suggest a one week ban. Yes, to start with this might result in slightly less players ingame, as they are "dead". However this would quickly change as people started to fear again

[Retlak]

I think a 24 hour char ban would be better than a week - more in quantity = more pissing off, and not as harshe.. a week would make someone lose interest in the game.

Heck, 24 hour bans are enough to make players behave better.

[Cuthalion]

Yup it should. However make sure noobs dont get this "ban"

Well see how 24 hours works;)

[abcfantasy]

I think this should be worth a thought.

However, we have to be careful since I think it might be abused. But then again, I guess we could contact GMs if we were unrightly clouded.

Also, perhaps the ban is only in effect when killed by a player only? Or maybe player and high level monsters? (so as not to have that kind of.."Oh another dragon, i beat 1 so i can beat all woo")