Illarion.org

Posted: **Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:59 am**

Why do we need more spells?

Because its about roleplay. Not every mage wants to be aggressive. Not every mage wants to sit there spamming MES PEN on himself endlessly. How refreshing would it be to have a confrontation with a mage where their response is not lightning lightning fireball. But shield, heal and run away.

Shield spells need to be introduced to increase the range of tactics people can use. They WILL need rebalancing yes.

Currently you cannot severely weaken offensive spells because mages will be cannon fodder in 3 seconds flat. With shields we can lower the effect of offensive spells, and make battles longer, more interesting, and utilise a wider range of tactics.

Its not about making makes more uberpwnage over fighters. Its about widening the range of possibilities.

I dont want shields to mean that mages become invincible. Sitting behind a shield and firebombing everyone sucks for everyone involved.

Afterall, numerous other comes utilise shields very effectively.

For things like rust. It means the mage can have a confrontation with an enemy. He can cast rust, and it can cause the bandit to retreat, without either being slain. These things of course would need balancing, and in the long term may very well become unviable. I know that, you know that, the Dev's know that.

They will implement what THEY see as useful.

Posted: **Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:03 am**

Wizard magic

* Covers powerful offensive magic.

Posted: **Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:04 am**

And don't forget. Every of that spells can be casted also on others. A mage can protect a warrior with a shield, against magic, melee, anything. a mage may be able to raise a crafters dexterity for a short time, so that he can craft better items. and so on

Every spell of those can be also casted on nonmages, others around the mage. they have not just to be for the mages benefit.

imagine your warrior going into a dangerous battle and he has a friendly mage casting protections over him.

There are many chances about how to use such spells

Posted: **Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:10 am**

Its about widening the range of possibilities.

Widening the range of wizard magic will detract from the other intended magics to be made.

Posted: **Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:15 am**

Ideally, some might put up shields and move, but what is more likely is that it'll just turn into SHIELD + OFFENSE, putting defense up first so they can get more off on a warrior or whoever.

Posted: **Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:20 am**

Which it is vital to rebalance the power of offensive spells once defensive ones are made available.

And Clui, I don't see how it will.

Each magic group will focus more on a certain feature, but that doesn't mean none can draw from the other.

For example you wouldnt expect Priests to have NO offensive capabilities.

Just as you wouldnt expect mages to have NO defensive capabilities.

Take a look at Baldur's gate. Mages and Cleric's have clear differences, and yet neither is an absolute.

Posted: **Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:27 am**

Indeed, but all these spells aren't that necessary. Mages already don't solely have offensive magic, but it is clearly what it focuses on. As well, when it doesn't it is quite sparse.

Posted: **Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:32 am**

I kinda agree we shouldn't have them...otherwise it would only make mages like...invincible...kill people quickly from far away,and when they come in close, turn on melee absorb and run further back, before killing the rest...

Just doesn't seem very...fun

Posted: **Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:52 am**

Aww, invisibility would be so awesome for spying, but also so easily abused in combat.

While shields against physical damage might give mages an outrageous advantage against fighters, isn't it reasonable to have spell shields? The only effect there would be to make mage combat more interesting, and perhaps give more of an advantage to the more skilled mage, rather than the player who can shoot off a paralyze spell first.

Posted: **Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:11 am**

Korwin wrote:Aww, invisibility would be so awesome for spying, but also so easily abused in combat.

While shields against physical damage might give mages an outrageous advantage against fighters, isn't it reasonable to have spell shields? The only effect there would be to make mage combat more interesting, and perhaps give more of an advantage to the more skilled mage, rather than the player who can shoot off a paralyze spell first.

how about the invisibility just keeps working as long as you don't cast other spells, or at least no offensive ones ..

Posted: **Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:49 am**

Only thing I have to say on topic is: Do not make any buff stackable apon another. WoW style having like 20 buffs on is just rediculous. 1 strategically chosen shield/buff/resist/ect is a good addition I think, given that there could be many different ones.

Posted: **Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:49 am**

The problem is that people would just attack, cast it, move somewhere else, and repeat. Maybe if it had like a minute long casting time...

Posted: **Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:51 am**

Korwin wrote:The problem is that people would just attack, cast it, move somewhere else, and repeat. Maybe if it had like a minute long casting time...

Well mages are lucky for now that theres no active archers.

Posted: **Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:22 pm**

Nalzaxx wrote:No...this page is about suggesting certain spells. Their effects and their rune combinations.

Nitram then comes along. And implements whatever the hell he wants.

I.E.

We go. Blah blah blah blah.

Nitram goes. Hmm shit shit shit, implement that one, shit shit shit.

Only a moron can't see the downsides of these spells. Luckily, Nitram is not a moron.

Its about suggesting what could be implemented. Not telling Nitram, you must implement this this and this but not this.

Get me?

If the time comes when he implements something that turns sour. THEN we say. This doesn't work too well, it needs to be changed/rebalanced.

Its not a hard concept.

So please. No more Discussion on what is and what is not a good idea.

Only spell ideas.

No.
Why? Despite apparently being a very able individual, Nitram is just that; An individual. It would be not only smart, but polite to think some problems trough beforehand rather than just leaving them all to be solved by him. I'm not saying that Nitram couldn't solve them, but what I am saying that the collective effort of the community would solve them better due to the amount of different views on things, as long as everyone stays fair and logical. Besides, planning and discussing will make the actual implementation much faster, as Nitram doesn't have to start his work from scratch.

It's a bit silly if the spell is implemented without any regards to constructive criticsm in the planning stage. The programmers aren't any superhumans, they too often don't consider all things or make mistakes like all other humans (or if not, why there would be bugs or any need of balance in the first place?)

Despite enjoying the satisfacting of being right most of the time (

) I would hate to have to say "I told you so" in regards to this.

On the other hand, if the reason for lack of discussion is the fact that most of the suggestions are not good enough to withstand any logical thinking or criticism, then perhaps the ideas just deserve to be torn apart in a discussion and then scrapped?

I'm just the voice of reason, you just do whatever you want.

EDIT:
The real reason why I am worried about the lack of discussion is, that in a "closed development" the only ones able to influence the system and present their views are the "elites" (AKA the crony MSN pals

) with direct connection to the developers.. And chances are, that it will not be a good thing with balance and fairness in mind.

Posted: **Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:31 pm**

Your clever for a noob.

Posted: **Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:08 pm**

Mr. Cromwell wrote:I'm just the voice of reason, you just do whatever you want.

Mr. Cromwell wrote:Yeah, I'm biased. Chances are that you are too, but I at least admit it.

Is it me or does something not stack up here?

Posted: **Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:17 pm**

@Cromwell : did you ever play a mage? If you didn't then you can't possibly know how hard it is... It's 100000 times harder than the "ctrl-click" that a warrior needs to do in order to train

Even a two years old child can do that

To play a mage you don't only have to train the char, but train yourself also

And again.. this topic is only for disscusion of spells!! No bitching allowed

Posted: **Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:20 pm**

Avalyon el'Hattarr wrote:@Cromwell : did you ever play a mage? If you didn't then you can't possibly know how hard it is... It's 100000 times harder than the "ctrl-click" that a warrior needs to do in order to train Even a two years old child can do that
To play a mage you don't only have to train the char, but train yourself also

And again.. this topic is only for disscusion of spells!! No bitching allowed

Training yourself? Is that what you call putting notes into essay form and printing off information and keeping it in front of you because your character has "learnt" it?

And turning up at lessons?

And holding alt and clicking?

Posted: **Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:22 pm**

I don't have any notes infront of me....

Posted: **Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:24 pm**

Me neither
Busted Alex

Posted: **Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:29 pm**

Me neither......

Busted!

Posted: **Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:52 pm**

Skaalib Drurr wrote:
Mr. Cromwell wrote:I'm just the voice of reason, you just do whatever you want.

Mr. Cromwell wrote:Yeah, I'm biased. Chances are that you are too, but I at least admit it.
Is it me or does something not stack up here?

It's just you.

Perhaps you would like to point out what has been thus far unreasonable in my statements? Or outstandingly biased compared to other posters in this topic (As I said, at least I am honest.) ? I've been among the more coherent and logical posters in this thread, you know.

I have been more than generous with explaining the logic behind my reasoning with the various topics I've gone through here.

EDIT:
Perhaps, since you seem to question to thruthfulness of the claim, would kindly respond to the other worries I've brough up in that particular post. I thank you kindly in advance.

Posted: **Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:20 pm**

Avalyon el'Hattarr wrote:@Cromwell : did you ever play a mage? If you didn't then you can't possibly know how hard it is... It's 100000 times harder than the "ctrl-click" that a warrior needs to do in order to train Even a two years old child can do that
To play a mage you don't only have to train the char, but train yourself also

And again.. this topic is only for disscusion of spells!! No bitching allowed

I think I have some understanding (albeit not as deep as you, I assume) about the workings of the magical system.

Well here is not so in-depth comparison:
Mage training essentials: ALT + CLICK.
Warrior training essentials: CTRL + CLICK.

Both experience downtime in their training (warriors with health, mages with mana) but you should also take into account that usually a warrior (at least my character. Training with players isn't that appealing) has to risk his life in order to train the skills, while the mage can train his spells without any danger to his own persona. Both are depedant on money at some level, but I would dare to claim that warriors more so than mages.

Now, while it's true that it takes a lot more roleplaying (I assume that none of you guys feels as a burden.. now do you?

) and time to advance as a mage, it's pretty obvious that the yields from this are also rather substantial already. Mages get to do a lot of neat stuff (telekinesis and teleporting) in addition to their awesome offensive punch which leads them into being a lot stronger individuals in the optimal* conditions than your warrior of similiar scope.

If becoming a strong mage would be as easy as becoming a warrior, the world would obviously be already controlled by punch of pwn mages. On the bright side for mages, the average warrior is too much bound by the physical restrictions to be a real threat in the optimal 1-1 sitiuation even at this point.

*Optimal condition: A purely theoretical sitiuation, rarely appliciable directly into the actual combat in the game. Opean area, perfect or near perfect knowledge about the advesary, relatively similiar skills, no outside influences and so on..

Posted: **Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:23 pm**

You obviously don't understand what i mean. Those two sentences contradict each other in my opinion.

Posted: **Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:25 pm**

Okay, questions.

1).Does warrior magick equal special attacks like Link of Legend of Zelda's whirling blade, or like the Cleave and Power Attack feats from D&D?

2).Why is a new magick system being implemented anyways? Some of us (like me) haven't gotten a chance to even test out the current one.

3).Are there any area effect combat spells or defensive spells of the same type? Like a firestorm or a mass healing? If not, I suggest those two as possible spells, along with others that I think of...and I have a lot of suggestions.

4).If mage magick is supposed to be offensive, then why can they use healing magick? That is supposed to be a cleric's job.

5).Will player-controlled necromancy or possibly demonology be implemented for non-quest characters? (Demonology= Demon Magick, or the study of demons.)

6).Wasn't this topic supposed to be about Protection Spells? That is what I read. Then again, this is not my topic.

7.) @Krom: What is so bad about a magick based world? Illarion is a fantasy roleplaying game, and there are signs of magick in it everywhere: elves, dwarves, fairies, gnomes, goblins, orcs, lizardmen, drow (could've sworn there were some...), not to mention the depots, the travel books, and the existance of high fantasy magick itself. I'd have to say that, in my opinion, Illarion is magick based.

Now, comments.

1.)The ideas for the spells are awesome in my opinion. Like I said, I could think of some more as well, along with ideas for the warrior magick, once I know what they are.

2.)Personally, some of you need to calm down and stop flaming like hellhamsters...er...salamanders? Nevermind.

Now, some suggestions from me--

Conjure Light- creates a sphere of light that illuminates a small area but doesn't follow the caster. Lasts for a few hours, and is best used in a dark area.

Conjure Darkness- the inverse form of Conjure Light, as it blocks all light from entering the area, thus blocking all vision.

Glitterdust- creates a cloud of shiny powder that prevents invisibility from being cast, and can be roleplayed as an eye and nose irritant. Can also help with accurately hitting your targets with projectiles.

Firestorm- a powerful spell that sets every flammable thing in a small to medium radius on fire, and does fire damage to anything living, or unliving as the case may be.

Froststorm- same as firestorm only with ice instead of fire.

Create Beer- a dwarven favorite! Creates beer, obviously.

Audible Glammer- creates a loud noise to act as a distraction.

Stinking Cloud- Creates a cloud of foul gas that induces vomiting.

Juxtapose Health- Swaps health points between the caster and an (un)willing target.

Create Fish: Creates a small amout of a random type of fish.

Cause Disease: Induces sickness on one target.

Burden: Makes the target slow down due to increased weight.

Last but not least....(not to be taken seriously)

Conjure Cows From Hell- Summons several demonic bovine that trample all in their path. Makes a great party trick!

And, thus, I am done.

Posted: **Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:29 pm**

Skaalib Drurr wrote:You obviously don't understand what i mean. Those two sentences contradict each other in my opinion.

The second sentence was only referring to the post where it appeared and to my general stance towards the discussion and planning things beforehand, it was not referring towards my stance concerning if mages in illarion are teh suck or not.

Do I make myself clear now?

Posted: **Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:52 pm**

Avalyon el'Hattarr wrote:@Cromwell : did you ever play a mage? If you didn't then you can't possibly know how hard it is... It's 100000 times harder than the "ctrl-click" that a warrior needs to do in order to train Even a two years old child can do that
To play a mage you don't only have to train the char, but train yourself also

And again.. this topic is only for disscusion of spells!! No bitching allowed

To late about the bitching.

Rah rah rah, its harder to become a mage than a warrior, so we should own and have everything.

Stfu vankers :p

Theres more to being a warrior than ctrl click, and if its as hard as you say it is to be mages. How comes near everyone i cross can defeat any warrior :p Bleh. Your all obviously hardcore powergamers, with magery being so hard to learn an all :p.

Posted: **Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:57 pm**

How comes near everyone i cross can defeat any warrior :p Bleh. Your all obviously hardcore powergamers, with magery being so hard to learn an all :p.

Since there were some gms and questchars in the last month who threw runes after everyone who wasnt a complet noob and attended at least a few lessons

Posted: **Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:01 pm**

Avalyon el'Hattarr wrote:Me neither
Busted Alex

I haven't actually this time.

I did in VMA though.

Had a little print off of the rune names

How comes near everyone i cross can defeat any warrior :p Bleh. Your all obviously hardcore powergamers, with magery being so hard to learn an all :p.

/signed

XD

Posted: **Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:05 pm**

Avalyon el'Hattarr wrote:@Cromwell : did you ever play a mage? If you didn't then you can't possibly know how hard it is... It's 100000 times harder than the "ctrl-click" that a warrior needs to do in order to train Even a two years old child can do that
To play a mage you don't only have to train the char, but train yourself also

And again.. this topic is only for disscusion of spells!! No bitching allowed

I can send you back the same thing you say, Did you ever play a warrior? I do not think, training a warrior, is much easier than training a mage, at the moment.

First on, you need to get a fair armor (NEED to), go train on mummys for AGES since they give nearly to no skill and the dagger ones are currently very deadly. Once youre at like 40% skill, the mummys train you no more, you need to pay loads of money to go get a full set of good armor and weapons, and get down to skeletons.

From then, skill is uber hard to gain, requires weeks and weeks of constant training, until skeletons can teach you at about 60% skill. After all that time (in which most players would have gotten clouded a few times and lose their equipment, having to get money in some way), you figure out that you need to train on something stronger. And then you go in the graveyard, seeking for red skeletons, there you need to bring dozens of potions (yes, more money), and usually end up clouded too often and lose your skill back to 50%.

And from there you get so damn pissed about it that you stop training and just think "smile that I dont need to train more". Then, after all these efforts, one day you encounter a mage, which is rather mean to your character. After a moment a fight begins, and before you have time to get to him he starts to paralize you, and you get the message "Go back to the YELLOW CROSS" before you can even react.

From then you get really pissed, you dont understand, why all your efforts were beaten by a mean mage, why now your character lost all his armor again, and dosent have money to repay it, and he lost abotu half the skill he has trained, for completely nothing else than frustration.

Now you want to understand, why it is like this, so you go on msn or on the forum and ask an experienced player about it, why it is like that. You get something like " Ohh, dont worry, a fighter cant beat a mage, but its not really a problem, you just need to get a bunch of people in the same time, metagame to have them all online at once, and jump the mage (unless he flees by teleporting".

Tell me, how would you feel?

It is about what happens currently, very slow skill gains for barely any advantage in the game, for learning fighting. With the current system, and even more with the spells which are being 'suggested', warriors have 2 options, attack or run, which usually both leads them to the cross agaisnt a mage, while this one can teleport away, cast dozens of different spells, paralize, teleport other characters, etc. The only thing they need to get it now is to get a teacher (academy), RP a bit (isnt that much a pain in the ass is it?), and then train.

Anyone ever noticed, that recently, barely ANY warriors are being trained to more than half skill? It is simply because there IS no point in doing so, since whatever how much you will train, it has NO effects in fights agaisnt mages, it gets you killed as much as any n00b. I dont think I will surprise anyone by typing this, magic is NOT rare anymore, just look at the magic academy Rooster. At least make it fair, and stop picking on those who criticize the suggested spells that are just totally silly and making every mages as demi-gods (most suggested ones in fact), that is just a matter of behaviour. Just fricking THINK at what you suggest too, and its effects.

Illarion.org

Shielding/Protection Spells Brainstorm