Minute-Men Army

The Returner · Post by **The Returner** » Mon Jan 12, 2004 9:49 pm

*again theres a disguised post on the board*

Albernon, in which case you dissprove lyrenzia as an anarchy.

Lyrenzia, is hereby a government, and an opressive one.

prove me wrong, because all your evidence has proven this right.

~Unsigned~

Ferrari Swifteye · Post by **Ferrari Swifteye** » Mon Jan 12, 2004 10:36 pm

As I said before anarchy is the absense of laws and government. If this island was an anarchy it would have to have all of the peoples concent to create a government.

In Illarion, the Lockean philosophy that each is entitled to property produced by his own labor has been the governing principle and should continue to be the governing principle.

Who decided that "each is entitled to property produced by his own labor" is true? How can you prove it? I don't recall who decided that this was the rule we lived by, except you. Are you now the supreme ruler of Illarion? You suddenly thought you can decide the principle that we live by?
Then it seems, you are just another "Lyrenzia".

Big words wonder where you got them from.
Aperrently you did not read my post.

Keep in mind that whatever answer you give, it would be YOUR answer only.

As should you.

Ferrari Swifteye

Urii Vandos · Post by **Urii Vandos** » Mon Jan 12, 2004 11:00 pm

Regardless of any of this, the point remains that Lyrenzia has done all that it's done without even taxing the citizenry of Trollsbane. Many of us come from other lands; We may have come here running from opression, tyranny, or other circumstances.

Now we argue because an organization builds walls to defend us, puts prisoners to justice, and defends the borders with only their own money and the money of those who donate?! This is silly.

I hear no dwarves who are citizens of Silverbrand or halfling citizens of Greenbriar complaining about the villages they have chosen to live in. Why? Because they chose to live there!

In conclusion, I will help you in your decision for or against Lyrenzia; Choose now between living with Lyrenzia or living under Darlok. Living with Lyrenzia, you have city walls, protection, and order at no expense to yourself. Under Darlok, justice is served in public beatings and chaos. It seems an easy choice to me.

If neither of these choices are particularly exciting, the protesters can gather together and build their own city, calling it "Not Lyrenzia."

The only ones who need fear Lyrenzia are those who kill, injure, rob, and connive.

~~Urii

P.S. I have done business with Aristeaus, and I do not do repeated business with those that I do not trust. I believe Ferrari is innocent, but no doubt someone's testimony was lacking at the trial. I have no doubt that Ferrari could have been proven innocent in trial had he gotten the needed witnesses involved. This is a mistake, and such things happen even in the most earnest and just society.

((OOC: Hobbes and Locke don't exist in Illarion, Ferrari. Our characters can't reference them at the Trollsbane Public Library. You could have, instead, made the argument without citing the authors (in real life, this is plagiarism, but in Illarion these people don't exist) and called it the "Ferrarian view."

))

Ferrari Swifteye · Post by **Ferrari Swifteye** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 1:28 am

((lol Urii. I kind of meant to put those in double brackets, opps. this is still a half OOC board :shrug:))

You have a point there Mr urii about usuing only there own funds.

Ferrari Swifteye

Darkform · Post by **Darkform** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 2:40 am

Darkform wrote:in my opinion Lyrenza is the city that is in the island it 's elected counclers are colectively the mayor

underground that city is silverbrand a city of drarfs run buy there oun mayor whitch hapens to be there guild leader

to the west is the city Greenbrire run buy a councle of 3 and is the property of the Evergreen Halflings

to the north-east is the city of Northerot curently under dispute with Darlok and Grant in charge of the 2 seperat groups claming rights to the land

to the south there may be a city but I am not shure if it is one yet

most of this land would think these statements true

after thoese there are guild buildings and the prison. Lyrenza has as it seems put the Grey Rose in charge of policeing the town

of these and others guilds do ally with other guilds and Government type groups

ok time to stop posting for now ((implieing me))

Darkform

((some of the ones poting here must not have looked at the post closely sometimes it is hard to see things in a open light))

Algoran · Post by **Algoran** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 3:31 am

Urii Vandos your point about Silverbrand, Greenbriar and even Northerot would be a good one except that they were set up by the people running them. lyrenzia TOOK control over Trollsbane. They TOOK a free town and made itself the rulers. They TOOK our freedoms away by deciding what the law was and who can enforce it. They built walls without consulting the folk of Trollsbane. They built a castle to enforce their power. They built a prison to scare the innocent.

They make a big noise that nothing has changed yet if you raise a hand against their protected theives it's you who end in chains. They may not openly tax the citizens yet but that time will come.

As you say, if we don't want to live under the thumb of lyrenzia we should leave, but where shall we go? To Northerot and Darlok? Perhaps though some do not like his ways. To Silverbrand? Not unless you're an invited Dwarf. To Greenbriar? Again, no luck unless you're an invited Halfling. Trolls Bane was always the home of all peoples. If any should go and build thier own town it should be lyrenzia.

I call upon lyrenzia to return the town. To let the people be free once more. lyrenzia say that without them it would be anarchy, I remember the time before the infection and anarchy was a pleasant place to live. I don't know much about this anarchy thing but the town thrived and prospered.

lyrenzia keep telling you how good they are for the people but a thief will tell you he's helping you by lightening the load in your purse.

Algoran

The Returner · Post by **The Returner** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 3:43 am

I second the vote., here here!

~Unsigned~

Urii Vandos · Post by **Urii Vandos** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 4:10 am

That would be a persuasive argument, if it weren't for the fact that Lyrenzia has only three laws!

1. Lyrenzia prohibits casting in town. This is logical.

2. Lyrenzia prohibits engaging in battle. Again, logical.

3. Rules on property, which is three-fold.

Lyrenzia prohibits stealing others' property.

Lyrenzia warns that one should conform to the rules of a property owner while on their property.

Lyrenzia prohibits the destruction of others' property.

Which one of these laws do you think should no longer be punished?!

Give me no more of this "but they built a castle and a prison" rhetoric! If you, instead, built the castle and the prison and Lyrenzia tried to stop you, you would shout out about your rights being violated!

Also, make no more claims of what you see Lyrenzia doing in the future. I have not heard any word of your great prescience or powers of divination in the past. If Lyrenzia were to do these things, then use them as arguments against them. Until that time, it is merely rhetoric.

~~Urii

The Returner · Post by **The Returner** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 6:13 am

casting in town.

Perhaps, but that was a vigilante enforced rule a long, very long time ago.

Engaging in Battle

And who is to say, that one can't have a duel by the blade? What happened to honourable defeat within ones quarter? To be forced to fight in the wild like dogs, what savagery.

Property (three "laws" making your total actually five.)

What jobs for theives? And the poor men? that they get charged for such a petty crime. I've seen trials over as little a thing as potions, potions, my word such brutality!

Rules of the property owner?

Then shall the owner have a guard or a lock, for which otherwise, their property is public, and quite so.

Things break, either by wear, or by force. It is not a crime, its logic.

Putting "laws" aside, there is also the matter of the wrongly accused trials.....rumours of bribery......

As well as the rumours that the Grey Rose who "Polices" us, are planning to attack the already quite chaotic northerot to claim it as another piece of lyrenzia's pie.

~Unsigned~

Rynt · Post by **Rynt** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 9:56 pm

The piece of paper is tattered at the edges. The writing on it is almost impossible to understand, but you can just about understand that the writer seems to dislike Lyrenzia. At the bottom where the signature usually is, there are some tears in the paper, as if many small, sharp objects have been dragged across it.

Algoran · Post by **Algoran** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 1:07 am

So Urii, lyrenzia only having three laws makes you happy. Perhaps if they simplified it further and just had one law, "do as lyrenzia say", you would be happier still. I do not care how many laws there are. The town had law before lyrenzia and it will have it after.

I would expect the townsfolk to act against me if I took over the town. If I built a prison and threw people into it because they broke "my law" I would expect the townsfolk to act against me. Make no mistake the law is theirs and not the laws of old. The laws of old were upheld by those involved and not on the word of friends of lyrenzia. If I built a castle near the town to intimidate the townsfolk I would expect at least some murmers in a quiet corner of the inn.

If I see a rock heading toward your head, you would not duck if I shouted because I had not predicted such things in public before? I shall remember this and save my breath. If an apple falls from the branch it will hit the ground unless someone or something stops it. I can see the apple falling I just need help to prevent it hitting the ground. There are things going on Urii, that cannot be written of here because it would endanger those helping us. This does not mean they are not happening. I don't ask you to trust my word, unlike lyrenzia. I don't ask you to trust my intentions, unlike lyrenzia. All I ask is you watch and listen and make up your mind. As for Rhetoric I suggest you read the lyrenzia posts.

Algoran.

The Returner · Post by **The Returner** » Fri Jan 16, 2004 1:50 am

A letter is posted, to the citizens of Trolls Bane

Then as all the gods as my witness, and may I hang at the gallows for this!

Lyrenzia is infact a government, and one full of deceit! As they claim such things as free rights, but instill walls, prisons, and council members!

Does an Anarchy have laws? NO! Lyrenzia does....

Anarchy's laws are Vigilante enforced by the people, not by those of knights, mercenaries, or chambersmen!

Lyrenzia is what it claims to not be! and you've all been fooled by its big words, and fancy notices!

Lyrenzia claim land, protectors of the town, laws

An Anarchy has only one law, enforce yourself, everything else is trivial.

This is no longer an Anarchy, you no longer have the choice over your lives!

People of Trolls Bane, I entrust onto you the ability to Obliterate! or Change! Lyrenzia for they have lied, to us all!

~Unsigned, by a concerned citizen of Trolls Bane.

Ferrari Swifteye · Post by **Ferrari Swifteye** » Fri Jan 16, 2004 2:29 am

As I said Before, Anarchy is the Absense of laws and government therefore Lyrenzia cant do what it does.

Albernon · Post by **Albernon** » Fri Jan 16, 2004 9:49 pm

The Returner wrote:

Albernon, in which case you dissprove lyrenzia as an anarchy.

Lyrenzia, is hereby a government, and an opressive one.

prove me wrong, because all your evidence has proven this right.

~Unsigned~

See, you just don't get it.
I, me, myself, and every "Lyrenzian" accepts Lyrenzia as the government.
It is for you who DON'T accept Lyrenzia, for which it is an anarchy. In anarchy, there are NO RULES, which means I can be justified to do anything, including start a government.

Do you get it yet? Every time I say Lyrenzia is justified by anarchy, I say i to justify it on YOUR terms, because you're the one who wants anarchy, not us.

If you accept Lyrenzian as a government, you obviously justified it. (that's me)
If you accept anarchy, everything and anything is justified, so Lyrenzia is justified. (that's you)
Either way, Lyrenzia is justified.

Yes, if you believe in anarchy, sure you COULD do exactly what Lyrenzia did and start your own "government". But then in that situation, neither your rules or Lyrenzia's rules will be justified to each other, nor do they need to be, so whoever has what it takes to back up their rules have better success.

Engaging in Battle

And who is to say, that one can't have a duel by the blade? What happened to honourable defeat within ones quarter? To be forced to fight in the wild like dogs, what savagery.

Property (three "laws" making your total actually five.)

What jobs for theives? And the poor men? that they get charged for such a petty crime. I've seen trials over as little a thing as potions, potions, my word such brutality!

Rules of the property owner?

Then shall the owner have a guard or a lock, for which otherwise, their property is public, and quite so.

Things break, either by wear, or by force. It is not a crime, its logic.

Putting "laws" aside, there is also the matter of the wrongly accused trials.....rumours of bribery......

As well as the rumours that the Grey Rose who "Polices" us, are planning to attack the already quite chaotic northerot to claim it as another piece of lyrenzia's pie.

So what you're saying is that you support more fighting inside the town, thieves should be allowed to steal, nobody should be allowed to own property that they built or paid for themselves, and that before Lyrenzia was here, everyone always killed the right persons in each case even though there was never any trials or evidence at all, and that people in Notherot should be able to take as much land as they want from everyone else. Sure, let's all go crazy and support these wonderful policies.

Anarchy's laws are Vigilante enforced by the people, not by those of knights, mercenaries, or chambersmen!

An Anarchy has only one law, enforce yourself, everything else is trivial

Last time I checked, there were people in Lyrenzia, so obviously they can enforce laws too?
In anarchy, everyone enforces their own laws and the strong survive.
So Lyrenzia enforces the laws they believe. Every other individual enforces the laws they believe. Whoever is stronger has better success in enforcing what they believe.
This is exactly what is happening now in terms of anarchy, so what's your problem? That someone is much stronger than you and therefore has more success in enforcing the laws they believe? Well, boohoo.

As I said Before, Anarchy is the Absense of laws and government therefore Lyrenzia cant do what it does.

If there are no laws, then obviously I can kill someone for no reason at all. Yet, you think that I or Lyrenzia cannot kill (jail) someone for a reason such as murder and thievery? Sure they are free to kill and steal, and I am also free to stop them.
If there are no laws, then obviously there is no reason why I can't write down all my reasons for killing (jailing) people and then enforcing it, since there is no law that stops me from doing so.

Sorry but your "Rule number 1: There are no rules" is just a circular argument, which is why anarchy is useless.

Albernon · Post by **Albernon** » Fri Jan 16, 2004 10:03 pm

Algoran wrote: I do not care how many laws there are. The town had law before lyrenzia and it will have it after.

So if there was law before Lyrenzia, then obviously there was a person or people who created it? So please tell me what the exact laws were and who gave them the power to create them.

If you tell me that there is a rule called "no casting in town", please tell me whether casting healing, food, for fireworks, and defense is allowed.
If the universal answer to any of those were "no" contrary to the belief of the 100 and more people in Lyrenzia, pray tell me the names of the other 101 and more people who made it so.

If the answer is that everyone had their own variations to the law to which they enforced at their own discretion, then I wonder why you think Lyrenzia shouldn't be able to write down clearly what variations to the law they enforce, and then enforce it.

The Returner · Post by **The Returner** » Fri Jan 16, 2004 10:06 pm

I don't believe in anarchy. I believe in myself, and those who I have accepted into my circle of friends.

What you do not understand, sir dwarf, is that every "Lyrenzian" doesent accept your sorry government, or its ridiculous laws, What you don't accept, sir dwarf, is that Lyrenzia opresses us, that its Lyrenzia's fault many bad things happen, not all bad things, those are left up to random things, but many bad things happen because of Lyrenzia.

And now, I think its time some bad things happen TO Lyrenzia.

~unsigned~

Ferrari Swifteye · Post by **Ferrari Swifteye** » Fri Jan 16, 2004 11:03 pm

Alberon youve lost your Anarchy argument, give it up. Urii had some good points you do not, give it a rest. As I said before

Anarchy is the Absense of laws and government therefore Lyrenzia cant do what it does.

Albernon wrote:See, you just don't get it.

((by the way returner nice quote from Lennon,

Lennon wrote:I dont belive beetles I only belive in myself

))

The Returner · Post by **The Returner** » Fri Jan 16, 2004 11:30 pm

((you have a swift eye,swifteye

))

Konstantin K · Post by **Konstantin K** » Sat Jan 17, 2004 2:53 am

((I bet he has a Ferrari too

))

So, Kale Orton, what exactly is the point of gathering another band of people to protect town, when there is already your Hagen, and the Town Guard, and the Grey Rose, and Coat Of Arms, and Archers of Illar, and who possibly may else be to protect Troll's Bane... Why?

Albernon · Post by **Albernon** » Sat Jan 17, 2004 9:47 am

The Returner wrote:I don't believe in anarchy. I believe in myself, and those who I have accepted into my circle of friends.

What you do not understand, sir dwarf, is that every "Lyrenzian" doesent accept your sorry government, or its ridiculous laws, What you don't accept, sir dwarf, is that Lyrenzia opresses us, that its Lyrenzia's fault many bad things happen, not all bad things, those are left up to random things, but many bad things happen because of Lyrenzia.

And now, I think its time some bad things happen TO Lyrenzia.

~unsigned~

See? More proof that you don't understand what you're talking about.
You say you don't believe in anarchy, but you want Lyrenzia gone, which by definition brings us back to the DEFAULT of anarchy. All you seem to think is that Lyrenzia=bad, Anarchy=chaos, and then you live in some kind of other magical default where everything is great. Sorry, but your "magical default" does not exist. The default is "anarchy", no matter if it is chaos or not.

I don't give a damn about whether or not Lyrenzia is "good" or "evil". That was never the arguement. The point is that Lyrenzia is JUSTIFIED in doing what it does from the default of anarchy, where "rules", "rights", and "freedoms" do not exist. These things only exist when law and government is formed.

Also, any "Lyrenzian" by definition supports Lyrenzia. If you don't support Lyrenzia, then of course you're not Lyrenzian. You don't even understand something as simple as this. You think I'm just talking about registered citizens because you only listen to yourself and don't try to UNDERSTAND other people's arguments.

We understand YOUR point of view. It is simple, obvious and naturally understandable in circumstances of more developed societies.
However, OUR point of view requires that you THINK deeper and realize the true implications of our more unique and underdeveloped society, but you are too closed minded to try and understand our justification and only know how to stubbornly see through experiences gained in different societies, which is why this argument will never end.

Not to mention, your comprehension skills leave something to be desired. Sometimes, try reading things twice and think about the tone and meaning in other peoples' words, not just YOUR tone in their words.

Alberon youve lost your Anarchy argument, give it up. Urii had some good points you do not, give it a rest. As I said before

Anarchy is the Absense of laws and government therefore Lyrenzia cant do what it does.

Excuse me? I have completely succeeded in my argument and left you unable to even make any response to the example that I gave. All you do is repeat a sentence that goes in a circle by saying "Rule 1 of anarchy: there are no rules". By definition, the rule 1 itself becomes invalid and you condradict yourself.

Even if anarchy is the absense of laws and government, then clearly there is nothing that can stop a bunch of people banding together and calling themselves Lyrenzia and then put people in jail. You have the freedom to steal and kill. We also have the freedom to put you in jail for it.

The correct conclusion is that anarchy is a current state of absense of law and government, so there are no rules to stop anybody from doing anything, including forming law and government.

Obviously anarchy refers to a state only at a particular point in time and doesn't mean that law and government can never be formed, or else there couldn't be any governments in the world since we all start at anarchy.

Albernon · Post by **Albernon** » Sat Jan 17, 2004 10:31 am

It's time to wake up and realize the true implications of Lyrenzia.
Even if someday "Lyrenzia" no longer exists, you will never be able to stop their people from doing what they do, because it is the same damned thing all of us do.

If Lyrenzia no longer exists:

Whenever somebody commits a crime, the victim will let the town know of his accusation and ask help for justice if he wants it and can't get it by himself, just as it might have happened before.

People who care about justice will each have their own opinion about whether they believe the accused committed the crime.

Those who believe the accused is innocent might defend him.
Those who believe the accused is guilty might punish him.
Some people may do nothing.

Opinions clash and unnecessary fighting arises. Bystanders become confused about which opinion to follow and contribute nothing to either defending the innocent or puinshing the guilty. Nothing gets done until the stronger side overpowers the weaker side through battle.

Then a guild leader will say to other leaders
"Let us join forces and vote on a majority opinion between us instead of fighting each other uselessly"

And so where before, 50 people for "guilty" might've had to fight off 20 people for "innocent" in order to punish the accused, or vise versa, now they go by a majority opinion instead so there is 70 people working together to defend or punish the accused.

And so people will begin to join forces and agree on a single opinion about whether they think someone is innocent or guilty, and take the same action, so then they will be stronger together and more effective in punishing or defending an accused....

Eventually, they will write down their common philosophies for all to see and call them "laws".
They will listen to an open discussion before making an opinion about the accused and call it "trial"....

Thus, another "Lyrenzia" starts all over again.

The Returner · Post by **The Returner** » Sun Jan 18, 2004 4:40 pm

Now Lyrenzia knows what I mean about "Bad Things".

~Unsigned~

Pronon Palmsuger · Post by **Pronon Palmsuger** » Tue Jan 20, 2004 12:02 am

((Pronon being a hobbit who doesnt like thiefs likes Lyrenzia. But you have to admit it was fun back in the days to be farming by the tavern and get robbed, If it was roleplayed well I didnt mind losing the cabbage. No one does that any more for fear of going to jail

Algoran · Post by **Algoran** » Tue Jan 20, 2004 9:38 pm

Albernon you are a wordsmith indeed. I have not seen so many words to say so litlle in a long time. "The emptiest vessel makes the most noise".
You say it's not a question of good and evil? That has always been the question. lyrenzia TOOK control of the town and imposed its "laws" on all peoples. No discussion, no consultation. One day we were all free peoples, free to trade, free to walk and talk, free to live and love and hope and dream. Next day there was a castle, a prison, walls, guards, fear and death.

Please feel free to write another page and a half about how lyrenzia is here and there is nothing we can do about it. The one thing you can't do, no matter how many pages you write, is justify what it did and what it is doing. If you are as high up as you seem to think you are then you know the future plans of lyrenzia. Evil? We will need a new word for what will come. Perhaps, as with most things, you could make one up.

Algoran.

Albernon · Post by **Albernon** » Wed Jan 21, 2004 12:51 am

Algoran wrote:You say it's not a question of good and evil? That has always been the question.

Again, you manage to show me your ignorance in failing to recognize that it not being a question of good and evil means I never argued this point to begin with. My words are wasted on a creature of such low intellect as you.

I have always only defended the justification of Lyrenzia's existance and how it came to be and succeeded in doing so. I have not to my memory ever directy argued that their integrity is necessarily good and not evil. But feel free to convince us all how Dyluck, Aragon, Damien, Caranthir, Korwin, Crosis, Belegi, etc. and all the people in those guilds who chose them, are so much more evil than the likes of you and the rest of your outlaws, if you think it will support your pathetic plight to convince people that those who saved us countless times and done so much for us are oh so much more evil than you

lyrenzia TOOK control of the town and imposed its "laws" on all peoples. No discussion, no consultation. One day we were all free peoples, free to trade, free to walk and talk, free to live and love and hope and dream. Next day there was a castle, a prison, walls, guards, fear and death.

Funny. Before Lyrenzia existed, I don't recall any local heroes say to the robbers: "Umm excuse me Mr.Robber, do you agree to follow the law that forbids stealing? No? Alright, then please go ahead and rob that old woman. I have no right to stop you since you don't follow my laws."

Yet, somehow you think Lyrenzia needs permission of criminals to stop them? Hah! Sorry, but not all of us fancy a life of plundering and murdering like you seem to fancy.

Is lies all you have left to resort to now that honor has failed you?
Trade is free as ever, and safer now that thieves fear capture.
People are free to walk and talk in our town, so long as they stay true to the values of the town and don't endanger its citizens through personal violence.
People can love, hope and dream, as long as the likes of you who would murder and steal from them are repremanded.
Sure you have always been "free" to kill, steal, tresspass, no matter what others you violated so long as nobody was strong enough to stop you, but now you cry and wail because there are those who would stand up to your putrid way of life. Well, we are just as free to stop you and protect ourselves from your killing, stealing, and tresspasing, and we always will, so long as lawless scum like you exist.

The one thing you can't do, no matter how many pages you write, is justify what it did and what it is doing.

Wrong. Justification is the ONLY thing I've been doing and I have succeeded.

Ferrari Swifteye · Post by **Ferrari Swifteye** » Wed Jan 21, 2004 1:24 am

Its just like I said. Anarchy is the absense of laws therefore lyrenzia can not do what it does.

You dont seem to get what Im saying. Let me help you.

Anarchy- The state of society with out government or law

Now lets take a gander at this. The state of society with out government or law That would mean that the society must detrimine wether or not to set up a government. Did the society? No. A few folk created Lyrenzia and it was suddenly the law of the land. Now before you dispurse hunderds of words, take a few moments to ponder what I'm saying. Don't you understand?

Also from what your saying I should be able to disagree with what lyrenzia says and it should NOT affect me, well guess what it does.

Albernon · Post by **Albernon** » Wed Jan 21, 2004 11:39 am

Now lets take a gander at this. The state of society with out government or law That would mean that the society must detrimine wether or not to set up a government. Did the society? No. A few folk created Lyrenzia and it was suddenly the law of the land. Now before you dispurse hunderds of words, take a few moments to ponder what I'm saying. Don't you understand?

Wrong. I COULD say the society DID determine to create Lyrenzia as much as you COULD say they didn't, because neither of us can say exactly how many people are on this island AND therefore how many are necessary to make a decision, AND who qualifies as a part of this society.
Neither you nor I know the numbers, nor do we have the innate power to decide who qualifies as part of our society.

YOU don't understand that what you so refer to as "society" is a weak link in which you cannot specifically define WHO they are. I explained this a few post up already, but you just refuse to read anything that is too long and complex for your mind to handle. If you really think anyone doesn't understand YOUR simple argument then you've missed the point, so stop worrying about me not understanding yours and put some effort and try to comprehend how MY argument countered yours, because it requires THINKING objectively about our world.

Notice, I underlined the word "society"? If government can only be set up by the "society" as you say, then please define for me specifically which people qualifies as part of this society. Then after you defined it, tell me WHO gave YOU the power to define who qualifies as part of our society.

You might say something like, "everyone who wants to vote on the new king meet at XXXXX place on XXXXX date", but since you have no power, nobody has to take yours to be official. Anyone else could also make a voting on another day and come up with a voting result for a different king or government, as many times as they want. Then I could even ship in some foreigners to vote for what I want, and who has the power to stop me and decide who are foreigners and who are citizens? Those that lived here 1 minute? 1 day? 1 month? 1 year? Who decides the qualifications?

If there is no government to begin with, then WHO decides which qualifies as the "society"?. WHO decides how and when the "people" make a official decision?

Your argument is circular and inapplicable because you say the "people" are required to set up a position of power, but at the same time a position of power is required to decide who qualifies as the "people".

Therefore, it is impossible to create a government without breaking the cycle by taking the power to define who the people are, as Lyrenzia did with it's Registered Citizens, who are free to nominate and vote for councilors to be seated in the foundation.

Also from what your saying I should be able to disagree with what lyrenzia says and it should NOT affect me, well guess what it does.

Hah! Don't you get it yet? Then I could say "I should be also be able to disagree with ANYTHING you do and it should NOT affect ME.
If you are free to kill and steal in anarchy, then I, Lyrenzia, or anyone else is also free to kill you for stealing or any other reason. By the gods, how many times do I have to explain that to you?

The Returner · Post by **The Returner** » Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:42 pm

Don't mention the gods, Dwarf. Lyrenzia think they are gods, like you do, so much higher so....., so smart. All you do is foolishly play with fire, a weak way to handle an already weak government.

~unsigned~

Algoran · Post by **Algoran** » Wed Jan 21, 2004 10:11 pm

Albernon this must cost you a fotune in ink. My ignorance must show in the way I get my point across in less than a page I suppose.
I'm an outlaw? What crime was I convicted of? Or do you mean I live outside lyrenzia law? Again, what lyrenzia law did I break?
I have not accused the lower members of lyrenzia of being evil only mislead. Interesting you have never argued that lyrenzia isn't evil.
Trade is as free as ever? I hope the SMACC council were comfortable in lyrenzias halls as they bought favour. People are free to walk through town? Indeed, as long as they are not from Northerot, The Movement or any other body lyrenzia disaproves of. You are right about hoping and dreaming, but only that lyrenzias demise is swift.

Your Crying, Wailing, Ignorant, Pathetic Outlaw Algoran.
P.S. Sorry if I missed any insults out, there were so many.

Ferrari Swifteye · Post by **Ferrari Swifteye** » Sun Feb 01, 2004 3:50 am

"but since you have no power, nobody has to take yours to be official"

What give Lyrenzia that power.

Oh no I should watch what I say for every word I write Albernon writes a page.

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Re: in my opinoin