Illarion.org

There is no valid reason to be against renaming the molotov cocktail. So please change it, because:

- Molotov-Cocktail is opposite RP-atmosphere.
- Both Moltov and Cockatil are two modern terms not known in medieval times
- A change of the word is easy to do.
- A warning message appears anyway.

My favorite is "Gynk-Fire". It has a reason and atmosphere.
"White bottle" is not a good name, because it does not tell anything about the function of the item.


However, I really wonder why there appeared such a discussion about a tiny thing. In particular considerung that the arguments supporting Moltov-Cockatil are little and the arguments for other ones (e.g Gynk-Fire) are manifold.

If clear and impartial arguments of the community do count in the development of Illarion, then the name has to be changed!

Greisling wrote:There is no valid reason to be against renaming the molotov cocktail.

- It's not confusing, everyone knows what it is.
- People are used to the name.
- The name sounds like it could fit in medieval times.
- Changing it would take effort. Let laziness prevail.
- I like the name molotov cocktail.
- It doesn't disturb my rp, and if it disturbs yours, call it something else yourself.

If clear and impartial arguments of the community do count in the development of Illarion, then the name has to be changed!

I'd have thought by now you'd have realised that they don't count for crap.

AlexRose wrote:- It's not confusing, everyone knows what it is.

Who said it is confusing? But if you mean that Gynk fire is not confusing, then you are right.

- People are used to the name.

People were used to much things which were changed anyway.

- The name sounds like it could fit in medieval times.

No.

- Changing it would take effort. Let laziness prevail.

Not really. No.

- I like the name molotov cocktail.

Then drink one.

- It doesn't disturb my rp, and if it disturbs yours, call it something else yourself.

Which RP ? And if it does not disturb you, than Gynk fire shouldn't disturb you, too.

Alex, I have the feeling you are not absolutely aware of what 'good' arguments are. I will try to explain you and I hope that it helps you to understand and formulate arguments in future by yourself.

- It's not confusing, everyone knows what it is.

After renaming the Molotov-cocktail, everyone would know what a "White bottle" or a "Gynk-fire" would be as well, since there is a description.
Moreover people have never stated that the current term is confusing in terms of its function.
Lastly, people play a game in which they already have to learn what "green bottlse" and ancient words are, for example. Consequently, it should not be difficult to "learn" another term.

- People are used to the name.

The argument is very similar to the argument before. Perhaps it highlights more the intention: Keep it as it is. This argument can be used anytime against any change.
The sheer fact that there are plenty people who already have stated they are not happy with the current term "molotoc cocktail", proves that they are not happy to use the term.

- The name sounds like it could fit in medieval times.

Actually, both terms were not in use to medieval times. In particular the word "cocktail" hardly was known to that time. Well, perhaps it might have been in use somewhere in anglo-saxion parts of the world. Though, in all other parts of the world it was not. English terms spread over the world just in recent centrury. Thus, in Germany in particular the term is not well chosen.
However, the argument: The term could fit into a time/country/culture/whatever is sheer assumption and thus not an argument at all.

- Changing it would take effort. Let laziness prevail.

We already have seen that the keep-it-as-it-is-argument is a bad argument. The time to make the change is so little that it cannot be used as an argument. It is an argument like: "Nay, I do not want to open my mouth to eat something, cause I am too lazy."

- I like the name molotov cocktail.

Your personal opinion alone does not count. Nevertheless, you speak for a group of people who do not see the problem with the current term. However, there still is another group who obviously is not happy with the term. The questions now are:
Do you like the current term that much that there is not the chance to have another one? Are the proposals for other terms already made really that bad? Do you want to try to understand the opinion of other members of your community to let benefit the whole community?

- It doesn't disturb my rp, and if it disturbs yours, call it something else yourself.

Once again you state your personal opinion. This is not an argument.
However, if you say that people who are not happy with the term should name it the way they like to become happy, then you surely will not have any problem to keep on calling the "Gynk-Fire" a Molotov Cocktail after it has been changed.


Hope now you got an idea of what arguments are, Alex.

Greisling wrote:

- It's not confusing, everyone knows what it is.

After renaming the Molotov-cocktail, everyone would know what a "White bottle" or a "Gynk-fire" would be as well, since there is a description.
Moreover people have never stated that the current term is confusing in terms of its function.
Lastly, people play a game in which they already have to learn what "green bottlse" and ancient words are, for example. Consequently, it should not be difficult to "learn" another term.

I can't wait to see how many people blow themselves up with a "white bottle".

- People are used to the name.

The argument is very similar to the argument before. Perhaps it highlights more the intention: Keep it as it is. This argument can be used anytime against any change.
The sheer fact that there are plenty people who already have stated they are not happy with the current term "molotoc cocktail", proves that they are not happy to use the term.

Yeah, and there are others who are happy to keep it... so?

- The name sounds like it could fit in medieval times.

Actually, both terms were not in use to medieval times. In particular the word "cocktail" hardly was known to that time. Well, perhaps it might have been in use somewhere in anglo-saxion parts of the world. Though, in all other parts of the world it was not. English terms spread over the world just in recent centrury. Thus, in Germany in particular the term is not well chosen.
However, the argument: The term could fit into a time/country/culture/whatever is sheer assumption and thus not an argument at all.

No, I'm saying the sound of the word works. If it was "dual core cyber explosive apparatus" then it wouldn't sound medieval. Molotov Cocktail sounds fine.

- Changing it would take effort. Let laziness prevail.

We already have seen that the keep-it-as-it-is-argument is a bad argument. The time to make the change is so little that it cannot be used as an argument. It is an argument like: "Nay, I do not want to open my mouth to eat something, cause I am too lazy."

That's a standpoint I personally take. The body craves what it wants and I'll eat when I need to and only then. Otherwise I'll skip meals because I can't be arsed making them, or consuming them when I could be doing other things.

- I like the name molotov cocktail.

Your personal opinion alone does not count. Nevertheless, you speak for a group of people who do not see the problem with the current term. However, there still is another group who obviously is not happy with the term. The questions now are:
Do you like the current term that much that there is not the chance to have another one? Are the proposals for other terms already made really that bad? Do you want to try to understand the opinion of other members of your community to let benefit the whole community?

Nah, if it gets changed to white bottle or Gynk Fire it'll annoy me. It's like when they changed "blue high armour" to "lor-angur guardian's armour", it took a while to get used to and I still prefer the former term. Just like people still used the term "Gobaith" when the map was put wrong, and like when people NOW say "Gobiath" because they're used to the incorrect name.

- It doesn't disturb my rp, and if it disturbs yours, call it something else yourself.

Once again you state your personal opinion. This is not an argument.
However, if you say that people who are not happy with the term should name it the way they like to become happy, then you surely will not have any problem to keep on calling the "Gynk-Fire" a Molotov Cocktail after it has been changed.

I meant it as a generalisation. I'm sure it doesn't disturb many peoples' rp.

Hope now you got an idea of what arguments are, Alex.

Anything that agrees with you, right?

I can't wait to see how many people blow themselves up with a "white bottle".

"You light the white bottle, be careful with the white bottle"
Be careful? What could it do? *drops at his feet*
----

Nah, if it gets changed to white bottle or Gynk Fire it'll annoy me. It's like when they changed "blue high armour" to "lor-angur guardian's armour", it took a while to get used to and I still prefer the former term.

So keep calling it a molotov cocktail
---

I meant it as a generalisation. I'm sure it doesn't disturb many peoples' rp.

Sweeping Statement + Argumentum ad popolum = epic fail

So, how may people in the community want to change it? Make a poll if you like, I guess you'll get a maximum of 10 people in the whole community who are bothered by its name.

I don't really care what it's called. Maybe there's a long dead inventor who was called molotov. And yes, I mean on the game.

AlexRose wrote:So, how may people in the community want to change it? Make a poll if you like, I guess you'll get a maximum of 10 people in the whole community who are bothered by its name.

Good Idea, we can finally prove you wrong, hehe.

VOTE IN THE POLL:
http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... hp?t=26610

PS: sorry, my mistake. You've been wrong before, hehe.

why the hell do you think illarion is democratic?

Djironnyma wrote:why the hell do you think illarion is democratic?

It is if we can suggest "GOOD" ideas, reasons for change and get the goodwill of the staff.

They are just like us. They want this game to be the best it can, but have little time or patience for crap.

Besides, I am just asking for player opinions. What's wrong with that?

i think illarion is democratic coz Lennier moved the bloody carpentry benches how we asked! Go Team Devs!

well, if not completely democratic yet, it sure is more democratic than it was in 2003. Just give them time, they're thawing off.

Konrad Knox wrote:i think illarion is democratic coz Lennier moved the bloody carpentry benches how we asked!

That's an ig matter.. and one that Lennier was always in favour of too.

That means we could simply blow us a dorm room not pay for all that crap...

Djironnyma wrote:why the hell do you think illarion is democratic?

To be entirely honest, I have never quite understood your massive hardon for autocracy. What's up with that? You do realize that players giving their opinion to the staff does not diminish the executive power of the staff? Right?

Just for your information, what Juniper Onyx is doing is NOT democracy, but merely player-staff communication (or attempt of doing that).

Djironnyma wrote:why the hell do you think illarion is democratic?

just mentioning it is more like America which is a republic. Because it has GM's like the senate but i just thought i would mention this although they did finaly change molotovs to Gynkenese fire

Can you stop draggin up topic because your bored please. it's rather annoying when someone plays gravedigger and doesn't even say anything important