Illarion.org

Estralis Seborian wrote:Account system:
Naaa, I don't want it back. Lots of work for the GMs, useless work in the end. I always hated reading all those stupid applications. Better let the GMs spend their time ingame, doing quests (erm...) or responding to pager calls. Or kicking out people with unfitting names. One can see a big increase in player numbers and I doubt most of them are r|_|n3$@p3-n00bs. Playing Illarion with 2 other players online sucks much more than playing Illarion with 20 players and 2 morons online. Fact: Many players, good and bad, are scared off by a strict account system. Never forget this is not a well known game like UO, thus, many people would never spend time into such an application thingy without checking out the game.

Shit, if reading the applications is SUCH a big deal to the oh-so powerful GMs who have everything else in the world to do, I'll read them myself. Just so long as we get the application system back, I'm willing to contribute. I also know of many people who would follow through with an account system to play a REAL roleplaying game without having to pay a monthly subscription fee.


Thank you, Arist, for bringing up these points. I couldn't have said them better myself.



In regards to the discussion of the economy vs. fighters:

I think one thing to keep in mind is that Illarion, aside from a few key points, is quite far from any definition of the middle ages. Its kind of like they set the world back 800 years, but replaced every bit of history, people, and culture with their own information. Of course the player economy is crap. There is no one regulating it. There are (agreeable so) too few craftsmen and if there wasn't so much focus on confliction, then we would probably have a more balanced craft system.

But alas, the entire community embraces confliction far more than peace (as can be noticed by the vast majority of people who are proficient in at least once combat skill). There is, quite surprisingly for a game of its design, too much dynamic to the crafting skills. We don't have the player interest to support the sheer amount of time it requires. Not to mention, I think it appeals far more to the human psyche to imagine (while thinking of an "age" of more barbaric times) a person who can slay a group of foes, rather than a humble businessman trying to sell his less-than-fashionable clothes and trinkets. Let's face the likely reality of the situation: the 'real' middle ages did not have more than a few blacksmiths per city, some clothiers, provisioners, candlemakers, cobblers, bakers, etc, etc, etc. The quantity of people who were Conscripts to the army was likely far greater as a whole than any other line of work. So far, this aligns with how things are. The point in which it deviates is where people forget that for this everyday balance to be maintained, there needs to be a few craftsmen of each type in at least once city. And this, my friends, is where we rapidly lose out. I do not think that the player base would support such an amount needed for more than two cities.

We need... the SilverStar Merchants! >.> *runs off to find Mishrack*

Juniper Onyx wrote:Personally, I would like to help "fix" current bugs and discrepencies such as this rather than 'create' new things. I like the challenge of problem solving. But it seems no-one is accepting applications.

I guess start learning Lua the scripting language, and you can start doing that. If you have the skills I can contact someone for you even.

nitram,

make the non fighting chars needed.
a fighter, who can bake his own bread, has no real reason, not to kill a baker.
a fighter, who can buy high class armour from a NPC does not honour a smith.

i could imagine more than one way, to balance things a little better.

the easyest, prohibition to use arms in towns.
upheld by ueberskilled NPC guards. (remember baldurs gate?)

or do things by economics and or skills.

economics:

therefor we would have to pretend. pretend, that there are a lot more persons living on the isle, than presented by chars and NPCs. supply every town with a certain sum of "tax"-money weekly, to pay chars to work as guards. (that would turn some robbers in to guards)
let the NPC merchants buy only very cheap, and sell only lower class items. (or better items at prohibitive prices)
so, that player-fighters can buy only leather armor from NPC merchants, and have to look for a playerchar-smith if they want something better.
(you can be sure, that they will tend to protect their favorite smith)
make a (RL)-time related top for production.
(to evade the economic advantage for those players that can stay online for 16 hours a day, and to give a high enough price for the produced items.) as allready mentioned, the NPC merchants should buy very cheap. that would take the beginners production out of the game, while teaching the ascending craftsmen step by step to look for player customers as their production gets better.
it goes without saying, that things have to be needed. armors have to wear down frequently for mending or have to break for replacement. same as tools are used up working now.
(a little extra income for taylors: a hurt char can heal quicker with bandages - for smiths: a weapon has to be sharpened after a fight - for cooks: fighting makes hungry and thirsty)
make production easyer.
instead of - right klick on the mill, select use with, right klick on grain, select use - just use. or doubleklick.

the time saved, if one cant produce indefinitly, will be used for RP. (i think)

skills:
make it easy to skill up. for instance, one squirly every five minutes.

BUT...

... build in a function, that makes it impossible, to gain more than three or four squirlies in 24 hours (RL).
the rest of their dayly ingame time, what could the players do, if not roleplay?

and/or let people select and specialize. (keine eierlegenden wollmilchsaeue!)
dont let everybody learn everything perfectly.
a good fighter should not be an excellent cook as well.
and a master farmer should not be able, to be an extraordinary swordsman.
if that farmer starts to train swordcraft, let him loose some of his farming skills.

the temple:

i think, it was somewhat unlucky, to place the "villain's" inpenetrable city just near the quietest place of the island.

well, enough said.

korm

ps: i did not mention magic nor mages.
just because i dont like magic. and my chars, if they see a wizzard, they pass over to the other sidewalk. so dont expect anything positive about magic from me.


Cliu,

generally, i agree. personally i got a slow connection. my chars could outrun a snail, may be.

Buying from NPCs isnt really the problem from what Ive seen. There are things people buy from other players, just because it's easier than going to another town. Players also tend to sell cheaper (sometimes by a lot) than the NPCs. NPCs don't have everything in an area.

fooser,

the point, i tried to stress was not the NPC system, but the time the players spend on powergaming/skillgaining.
and, in my opinion, to change some aspects of NPC selling and buying would be one part of a bundle of measures, that should bring more roleplay, and less engine play.

korm

You really can't just roleplay skills. I've tried and tried and tried and everytime it ends up being that a "real" battle must be fought in which I always lose. My skills are hardly above the least skilled new player (partially because of the low frequency of playing) and I started this Turonga on the character wipe.

As awesome and plausible it sounds you can't roleplay a fighter. I enter the town shout and scream etc. and I get sent out of town by a blade that can kill me in two hits. In trying to roleplay fight against someone who truley fights you find yourself sent to the cross almost immedeatly, and this is not wholley the "real" fighters fault. In the midst of Ctrl clicking and running around trees etc. it becomes very difficult to type and acknowledge all #me's. I recall running from a fighter and another player came along (a friend of mine) and #me'd throwing daggers that the pursuer who simply didn't acknowledge it. While no acknowledgement is obviously intentional, it is quite a delayed reaction.

Other skills can't be roleplayed because of showboaty characters who will simply show you up. Players will, in theory, acknowledge your roleplayed ability to carpenter, but it will essentially be ignored. Grander carpenters will flash there goods while you have none to flash and youll almost never be asked to make anything or do any jobs, even if the exchange of money is fake.


Skill ultimatley have become required. While Stephun (Who I actually do enjoy playing with quite a bit) says they aren't and that its just a distinciton between the many player types I have to disagree. Lesser players (if such a catagory exists) and the high players alike force you into using skills. Only those with actual system skills are acknowledged within the economy economy and the economy of fighting. Recognition within these economys is tantamount to recognition within the game and without you really aren't playing.

I remember when everyone used to give fake money to get their name engraved in whatever it was they were buying.

Can you imagine what would happen if everyone played whatever skill they believed they should have? It would be chaos! It would be... Dragon Ball Z!

It would...depend on rp!

It isnt that hard to become an average fighter in illarion, train for about 10 minutes a day at the undead temple you in about .. 3 weeks if you train once a day you will have about 50% maxed out skills which is enough to handle skeletons and a horde of undead mummies. You can also accomplish this much in about 10 days or so if you play this game for several hours a day and can thereby cap out your skill twice a day.

OH MY GOD!

I don't believe what this thread has turned into.

It started complaining about such things and now it's a discussion about how to get more etc.

Pfft.

Korm Kormsen wrote:make the non fighting chars needed.

Would be fine...

Korm Kormsen wrote:a fighter, who can bake his own bread, has no real reason, not to kill a baker.

How shall we avoid that a fighter learns how to bake?

Korm Kormsen wrote:a fighter, who can buy high class armour from a NPC does not honour a smith.

Well. Its possible to make the NPC only selling crap.

Korm Kormsen wrote:the easyest, prohibition to use arms in towns.
upheld by ueberskilled NPC guards. (remember baldurs gate?)

Sadly i have to tell you, that this is impossible.
Basically there are 3 types of characters. Players, NPCs and Monsters.
The different between NPCs and Monsters is, that NPCs can be controlled much more then Monsters. But NPCs can't attack or seek their target on their own.
Monsters hardly can be controlled. They attack everyone or noone. Nothing else.

Korm Kormsen wrote:therefor we would have to pretend. pretend, that there are a lot more persons living on the isle, than presented by chars and NPCs.

That doesn't work i fear, because we just don't have that much Players. And giving all town 20 npcs that sell taxes... i don't know. Sounds crappy.

Korm Kormsen wrote:supply every town with a certain sum of "tax"-money weekly, to pay chars to work as guards. (that would turn some robbers in to guards)

I wonder why the town take no taxes from their current citizens.

Korm Kormsen wrote:let the NPC merchants buy only very cheap, and sell only lower class items. (or better items at prohibitive prices)
so, that player-fighters can buy only leather armor from NPC merchants, and have to look for a playerchar-smith if they want something better.
(you can be sure, that they will tend to protect their favorite smith)

Thats possible. And maybe needed.

Korm Kormsen wrote:make a (RL)-time related top for production.

Hardly possible and not a real solution in my eyes. Its nothing more then a harder skillcap i think.

Korm Kormsen wrote:(to evade the economic advantage for those players that can stay online for 16 hours a day, and to give a high enough price for the produced items.)

Those who are longer online are better. You can't even expect anything else. Or do you think you gain skills from doing nothing?

Korm Kormsen wrote:it goes without saying, that things have to be needed. armors have to wear down frequently for mending or have to break for replacement. same as tools are used up working now.

That system is a little bugged. I'm working on a solution.

Korm Kormsen wrote:(a little extra income for taylors: a hurt char can heal quicker with bandages - for smiths: a weapon has to be sharpened after a fight - for cooks: fighting makes hungry and thirsty)

Bandages... hmm
sharpened weapons goes a long with repairing stuff. Thats in work.
And hungry and thirsty. I think this is allready present since they don't regenerate hitpoints without food.

Korm Kormsen wrote:make production easyer.
instead of - right klick on the mill, select use with, right klick on grain, select use - just use. or doubleklick.

Double Click doesn't work. Everything else... maybe.

Korm Kormsen wrote:skills:
make it easy to skill up. for instance, one squirly every five minutes.

BUT...

... build in a function, that makes it impossible, to gain more than three or four squirlies in 24 hours (RL).
the rest of their dayly ingame time, what could the players do, if not roleplay?

This is very difficult to do. Since you can do 2 actions in 5 minutes and 200 actions in two minutes.
And your proposal would require another complet rework of the skillgain system.

Korm Kormsen wrote:and/or let people select and specialize. (keine eierlegenden wollmilchsaeue!)
dont let everybody learn everything perfectly.
a good fighter should not be an excellent cook as well.
and a master farmer should not be able, to be an extraordinary swordsman.

So you propose a class system. Illarion does not support anything like this in any way. But if we should implement something like this, another character wipe would be needed.

Korm Kormsen wrote:the temple:

i think, it was somewhat unlucky, to place the "villain's" inpenetrable city just near the quietest place of the island.

Some say it was bad. Some it was good. Thats a point of view.


Nitram

nitram,

How shall we avoid that a fighter learns how to bake?

So you propose a class system. Illarion does not support anything like this in any way.

no, i dont. i will try to explain myself better. (working with fictive values)

imagine ten possible skills. with ten times up till 100 skillpoints possible.
but just 500 skillpoints maximum avaiable to chars.

fictive char:
100 farming
100 baking
100 cooking
50 treecutting
50 slashing
50 dodging
50 parrying

if this char learns more , lets say, slashing, he looses the same amount of another skill.

100 farming
95 baking
95 cooking
50 treecutting
60 slashing
50 dodging
50 parrying

i hope, i expressed myself better this time.

----

Korm Kormsen hat folgendes geschrieben::
therefor we would have to pretend. pretend, that there are a lot more persons living on the isle, than presented by chars and NPCs.


That doesn't work i fear, because we just don't have that much Players. And giving all town 20 npcs that sell taxes... i don't know. Sounds crappy.

no, i am not talking about stuffing the towns with NPCs. just pretend a bigger population, from which comes an income, (an "income-spawn") that town leaders can spend on paying guards.

I wonder why the town take no taxes from their current citizens.

that one is easy to answer:
because the player chars are no citizens, but vagabonds.

a tax can be taken only from somebody, who is afraid to loose something, if he does not pay.

trollsbane, for instance, could just take taxes on the inn, the tavern and the future brothel. period.
everybody else has no motivation to pay taxes.

turn more players into owners. owners pay taxes.

-----

Those who are longer online are better. You can't even expect anything else. Or do you think you gain skills from doing nothing?

ind imho that should be changed.
the bigger the possible diffrences of skill-level between players, the more important it is for the weaker chars to skill up.
the more time a player spends on skilling up his char, the less time he has for roleplay.

this is anounced as roleplay game. so people with more time should roleplay more.
at the moment they are mainly training more skills. (so it seems to me)

----

i think, it was somewhat unlucky, to place the "villain's" inpenetrable city just near the quietest place of the island.


Some say it was bad. Some it was good. Thats a point of view.

sure.

korm

I have a few things I have noticed about the topics beging discussed. (I didn't read page two)

About every other day I try to make 2-4 silvers. They are needed for potions, armor, leather, thread, cloth, and other things. I will use today as an example. I tried to make 2 silvers, but the merchant coulden't affor to buy my things. I can get lucky and maybe be able to sell things to this merchant every few days.

This brings me to my next subject, skills. I have noticed the smithing skill and tailoring skill change greatly over the past year. Smithing-Used to be you go to the side of the grey rose, mine, smelt, then smith. Now you must go to the cave east of Troll's Bane, mine, go to your depot, go to the mine north of the grey rose, mine, go back to your depot, go back to Troll's Bane, smelt(while failing with a low level), then you get to attempt to smith. Tailoring-Any player can do this now to a certain extent. I remember when mummies and sibanac gave thread, and nothing else. Now it is possible for anyone to just go get a needel and thread so they can sell shoes and armor. I have noticed I finally got one of my characters to make light hunting armor. I have made about 300+ of them along with maybe 400+ other things in tailoring. This did not make me learn anything. I agree some thing needs to be done with the skill system, and soon.

Merchants seem almost fine expept the amount of coin they carry. There aren't any smiths around. Salathe left, Alexander only smiths for the grey rose, and the only other good one we have had in years got banned. If we didn't have old armors and merchants killing a demon skeleton would be unheard of.

About the skill gain thing. Some of my best Rp expeariances have been in crypts and graveyards. I think Illarion needs an even balance of Rp, skill and, maturity. Without one of those things you would have a very annoying or boring character.

I do recall Gort being chased down for armor and weapons, then he was let go. I failed to find the good Rp as you might expect. The ones following Gort could ahve easaly taken a fallen Gort back to town and asked around what really was going on. They wanted items thoe.

I have never had a horrible expeariance with a gm.

Korm Kormsen wrote:imagine ten possible skills. with ten times up till 100 skillpoints possible.[...]

I'm fine with this idea. but this is not possible without some server changes i think. About the top value we can discuss i think.

Korm Kormsen wrote:no, i am not talking about stuffing the towns with NPCs. just pretend a bigger population, from which comes an income, (an "income-spawn") that town leaders can spend on paying guards.

I can't say i like this idea.

Korm Kormsen wrote:a tax can be taken only from somebody, who is afraid to loose something, if he does not pay.

Good point. But the players get a reason really soon.

Korm Kormsen wrote:turn more players into owners. owners pay taxes.

Thats the plan.

Korm Kormsen wrote:ind imho that should be changed.
the bigger the possible diffrences of skill-level between players, the more important it is for the weaker chars to skill up.
the more time a player spends on skilling up his char, the less time he has for roleplay.

So shall we lower the differences between weak and strong?
That won't be good i think.

There was the proposal for the rp reward system. Just something that counts the amount of the lines your character say or emote. And after you get a certain amount, you get a few bonus skillpoints you can place on any skill you have in the account System.
May this would be a solution.

Nitram

nitram,

Just something that counts the amount of the lines your character say or emote. And after you get a certain amount, you get a few bonus skillpoints you can place on any skill you have in the account System.

now i got something to do, while i cant get ingame.
i'll prepare a lot of stories, my farmer can tell to people. about onions and rabbits, halflings and scites, grapes and birds....

korm

Nitram wrote:I'm fine with this idea. but this is not possible without some server changes i think. About the top value we can discuss i think.

But such a system has to be transparent to the users and if they lose skill because of the skill maximum, there has to be a message. All in all, that would be a really tough change!!

There was the proposal for the rp reward system. Just something that counts the amount of the lines your character say or emote. And after you get a certain amount, you get a few bonus skillpoints you can place on any skill you have in the account System.

I thought that was implemented in some way... (talking recovers your character faster)?
Well, such a system could lead to miss-use. And it needs also big changes...

Korm Kormsen wrote:

no, i dont. i will try to explain myself better. (working with fictive values)

imagine ten possible skills. with ten times up till 100 skillpoints possible.
but just 500 skillpoints maximum avaiable to chars.

fictive char:
100 farming
100 baking
100 cooking
50 treecutting
50 slashing
50 dodging
50 parrying

if this char learns more , lets say, slashing, he looses the same amount of another skill.

100 farming
95 baking
95 cooking
50 treecutting
60 slashing
50 dodging
50 parrying

i hope, i expressed myself better this time.

You'll loose a lot of people with a system like that.

How about a character wanting to help someone else cutting trees, but can't because he would loose his master smithing.
"Oh.. sorry I.. can't cut trees it's bad for my.. uhm hands" ?

I'm tired of the ones, who tell us, what proposals are bad.

Give a better one.

Nitram wrote:I'm tired of the ones, who tell us, what proposals are bad.

Give a better one.

Simple:

Make dexterity unneeded for a fighter, yet needed just for crafters..

That way, people will max out the fighter stats, and will ignore dexterity.

Forget it.

Hadrian_Abela wrote:

Nitram wrote:I'm tired of the ones, who tell us, what proposals are bad.

Give a better one.

Simple:

Make dexterity unneeded for a fighter, yet needed just for crafters..

That way, people will max out the fighter stats, and will ignore dexterity.

I thought we didn't like people maxing their stats for such purposes?

Why not lol, if you want to make a fighter why wouldn't you give him the best fighting stats you can think up.

because than you have a fighter with int 3 who behaves like he has over 10. like Stephen, for example. his intelligence and willpower are low enough to behave like a drooling fool. but that he just does when a hot woman crosses his way.

Too many see intelligence and willpower, essence aswell, as an attrribute that you just have to roleplay. that low int as an attribute doesnt mean the char has to be played silly aswell

At the same time patric you will need to roleplay samantha as constantly sick (3 consti) impossible to hold anything (low dex) and near blind (low perception)

yet you do not

Why is that?

She has consti and perception 6 and agility 10. so what? she has enough consti to be not sick the whole time. and i play her that she is not strong. or why do you think she leans the whole time onto her magestaff? or that she is sitting somewhere? and i play her clumsy. she can't catch anything when you throw it to her. the last time she should hold nails for someone she dropped them the whole time. she dont even tries to do any craft, because she knows that she has bad hands for them

str?
dex?

both 5. and? i do play her like that. she even asks others to take the heavy stuff from her depot when she does trade. she does no hard work, nor even any work. not like your warriors who also became master carpenters and whatever else.

The attribute system, in literary terms, is flawed. Though, speaking in balanced terms, it is not. Since technically, it is not flawed then we do not need to worry about it. Restricting characters to play their attributes is to restrict a character to their possibilities.

But warriors can forget essence, willpower and intelligence completly without any negatoive effects. they even complain and moan when a mage is able to beat them with their essence 1-3.

"oh no, that powerfull archmage can kill my essence, intelligence and willpower 3 char! Thats unfair and unbalanced!"