thieving

Gwynnether · Post by **Gwynnether** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 8:23 am

I'm doing now a very, very careful suggestion, which I probably will immediately get yelled at for. I'm trying it though.

Personally I see no reason for a thieving-skill. Those who play fairly, always give something. I for my part let it depend on my chars history and stats. You could have stolen Baileys shoes without her recognizing. Yet Caitlin, with perception 18 and being a former thief would probably already notice when you only think thievery (j/k.) On the other hand she had a weakness for thieves and just let them do and pretended to not be aware of it.

But I'm getting off topic...

If a thievery skill is really, really wanted I thought of following (*prepares for the beating*) :
Why not giving a skill for good rp. Just for a change. Lets say there is a limited amount of 1-3. Now you write an application with your char concept (char description, background, how you would play the char.) and from those they get picked. Now if we are running dry on thieves again due to any reasons (PO doesn't play the char anymore, PO doesn't play Illarion anymore, Char became an 'honest' person etc.) there could be announced that applications are accepted again because there 'positions' free. Of course everyone else can play a thief as well – they just don't have the skill.

Anyway, it's just a suggestion. Please don't beat me too hard.

I just think that would give the 'normal' players the possibility to get to something 'special' for once as long as the RP is fitting. That would also work for other specifications, like paladins, priests or novices, etc.

Quinasa · Post by **Quinasa** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 12:29 pm

I'm completely against having thieving as a skill, hands down. While your proposal was a good and well thought out one, Gwynn, it would sadly lead to animosity and jealousy between players. There would be races to who could get the positions first and then there would be fights about favouritism. :/ What you proposed was the best idea so far, but like with any idea there are complications.

Tygran · Post by **Tygran** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 2:06 pm

As a thief character (hello by the way

), i'd much prefer to roleplay then to have a thieving 'skill'.

This is because:

A. This is a roleplaying game, not a skills game.

B.Non-thieves would most likely abuse it and we'd get 'Hero-Thieves'.

C.It's more fun

However, in order for it to work (rping theivery) it does require equally good rp from players. Numerous times have i gently put an axe to someones back, only for them to suddenly turn around and run. Or spot me pickpocketing someone in Trollsbane from Varshikar

Perhaps if 'Hero' roleplay consisted of more than "Thief!' *chase*" and more... "hmm.. that face seems familiar", or just not noticing at all.

Players should also acknowledge what theives are wearing at the time, my Dwarf always wears a 'straw hat' (which obscures his face-which i #me) whilst robbing a player, and takes it off when he is not. Yet i still find players recognising him, from mere descriptions, which just doesn't happen

(Though i usually counteract bad rp with running

).

ANywho, skills-no roleplay-yes.

Poots · Post by **Poots** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 9:58 pm

yes we all understand that no one wants the skill, you don't have to keep saying it. is there a way we could debate whoever makes the final say on whether there should be a skill or not? my thief gets along fine and I don't see any problems.

Cliu Beothach · Post by **Cliu Beothach** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:40 pm

Im my time of thieving I have never experienced a unfair advantage of the "victim". Usually they will ignore, which is no big deal, to me atleast. I have never seen other people unfairly pick out a thief also.

Although, I wouldn't mind a skill, but Aristeaus brought the problem up. Possibly you can only rob someone if you are behind them, therefore attacking isn't the only way to get rid of them. Also, a skill doesn't mean less RP.

falco1029 · Post by **falco1029** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 12:12 am

Tygran wrote:As a thief character (hello by the way ), i'd much prefer to roleplay then to have a thieving 'skill'.

This is because:

A. This is a roleplaying game, not a skills game.

B.Non-thieves would most likely abuse it and we'd get 'Hero-Thieves'.

C.It's more fun

However, in order for it to work (rping theivery) it does require equally good rp from players. Numerous times have i gently put an axe to someones back, only for them to suddenly turn around and run. Or spot me pickpocketing someone in Trollsbane from Varshikar

Perhaps if 'Hero' roleplay consisted of more than "Thief!' *chase*" and more... "hmm.. that face seems familiar", or just not noticing at all.

Players should also acknowledge what theives are wearing at the time, my Dwarf always wears a 'straw hat' (which obscures his face-which i #me) whilst robbing a player, and takes it off when he is not. Yet i still find players recognising him, from mere descriptions, which just doesn't happen (Though i usually counteract bad rp with running ).

ANywho, skills-no roleplay-yes.

yes, we all agree with that. I just hope the illarion masters realize this. I think the only people weho want a skil lis powergamers

Vilaris · Post by **Vilaris** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 12:16 am

Cliu Beothach · Post by **Cliu Beothach** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 12:30 am

falco1029 wrote:
Tygran wrote:As a thief character (hello by the way ), i'd much prefer to roleplay then to have a thieving 'skill'.

This is because:

A. This is a roleplaying game, not a skills game.

B.Non-thieves would most likely abuse it and we'd get 'Hero-Thieves'.

C.It's more fun

However, in order for it to work (rping theivery) it does require equally good rp from players. Numerous times have i gently put an axe to someones back, only for them to suddenly turn around and run. Or spot me pickpocketing someone in Trollsbane from Varshikar

Perhaps if 'Hero' roleplay consisted of more than "Thief!' *chase*" and more... "hmm.. that face seems familiar", or just not noticing at all.

Players should also acknowledge what theives are wearing at the time, my Dwarf always wears a 'straw hat' (which obscures his face-which i #me) whilst robbing a player, and takes it off when he is not. Yet i still find players recognising him, from mere descriptions, which just doesn't happen (Though i usually counteract bad rp with running ).

ANywho, skills-no roleplay-yes.
yes, we all agree with that. I just hope the illarion masters realize this. I think the only people weho want a skil lis powergamers

Thank you for the generalization.

The points given, such as "This is a roleplaying game" and "It will ruin the RP atmosphere" are invalid. Yes, this is a roleplaying game and yes adding a new skill will detract from SOME roleplay, but fighting, crafts, and other things have skills as well.

Do they detract from RP? Yes they do, almost any skill will detract from it, and some players will powergame, but this detraction shouldn't effect the coding. If it we did then we should also take away all current skills because they promote Powergaming and detract from roleplay.

falco1029 · Post by **falco1029** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 12:36 am

Cliu Beothach wrote:
falco1029 wrote:
Tygran wrote:As a thief character (hello by the way ), i'd much prefer to roleplay then to have a thieving 'skill'.

This is because:

A. This is a roleplaying game, not a skills game.

B.Non-thieves would most likely abuse it and we'd get 'Hero-Thieves'.

C.It's more fun

However, in order for it to work (rping theivery) it does require equally good rp from players. Numerous times have i gently put an axe to someones back, only for them to suddenly turn around and run. Or spot me pickpocketing someone in Trollsbane from Varshikar

Perhaps if 'Hero' roleplay consisted of more than "Thief!' *chase*" and more... "hmm.. that face seems familiar", or just not noticing at all.

Players should also acknowledge what theives are wearing at the time, my Dwarf always wears a 'straw hat' (which obscures his face-which i #me) whilst robbing a player, and takes it off when he is not. Yet i still find players recognising him, from mere descriptions, which just doesn't happen (Though i usually counteract bad rp with running ).

ANywho, skills-no roleplay-yes.
yes, we all agree with that. I just hope the illarion masters realize this. I think the only people weho want a skil lis powergamers
Thank you for the generalization.

The points given, such as "This is a roleplaying game" and "It will ruin the RP atmosphere" are invalid. Yes, this is a roleplaying game and yes adding a new skill will detract from SOME roleplay, but fighting, crafts, and other things have skills as well.

Do they detract from RP? Yes they do, almost any skill will detract from it, and some players will powergame, but this detraction shouldn't effect the coding. If it we did then we should also take away all current skills because they promote Powergaming and detract from roleplay.

"

Now we get into what should be skill based and what shouldsnt argument. Fighting should not, as no two people will agree who wins, ever.

"Im stronge,r so i kil lyou"

"No you dont, you die!"

etc etc. Same with magic. Crafts and items need to be coded because theres no poitn of a graphical interface if they arent. Thieving however is easily rpable and people with good rp skills will usually have few problems with agreeing if the thief goes undetected or not.

Cliu Beothach · Post by **Cliu Beothach** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 12:44 am

So far, I have seen people complain that others play unfairly.

Stealing is no different than fighting.

falco1029 · Post by **falco1029** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 12:45 am

Cliu Beothach wrote:So far, I have seen people complain that others play unfairly.

Stealing is no different than fighting.

yeah, but those are bad rpers, and probably shouldnt be playing anyway (you know people, you CAN report these people)

Cliu Beothach · Post by **Cliu Beothach** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 1:13 am

Exactly, and no matter what skill is added or is already here will always have these negative side effects.

falco1029 · Post by **falco1029** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 1:37 am

yes, but tyou need to look at what skills enhance the gameplay. obviously fighting and economic systems are a plus, as thos eare hard to rp fairly. But thieving is usually fine. Itws not going to enhance gameplay to have people constantly reaching into your pocket.

Poots · Post by **Poots** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 1:38 am

when I play my pick-pocket, I have fun making new ways of stealing. sometimes, if my plan was good, I get 100 coins or so. if my plan was bad, I get caught or I get like 1 coin. and very very very very very little of the time, is there a total noob (I try not to rob them, yet sometimes it's hard to tell) who will ignore me and keep walking or automaticaly attack me or something. when that happens, I just run and pretend he really caught me. later in the game, he'll learn better. the point being, the system is perfect now. We don't fight over who won the robbery and such.

falco1029 · Post by **falco1029** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 1:40 am

exactly

Cliu Beothach · Post by **Cliu Beothach** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 1:50 am

I am also saying that this method can also be found in RP fighting.

falco1029 · Post by **falco1029** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:32 am

And you have no real argument about that. Rp fighting is a lot harder for people to agree on, and with npc s and monsters you cant have rp fighting. End of story.

Cliu Beothach · Post by **Cliu Beothach** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 3:30 am

falco1029 wrote:And you have no real argument about that. Rp fighting is a lot harder for people to agree on, and with npc s and monsters you cant have rp fighting. End of story.

Really?

Quite brash. Unless you state why RP fighting is any MORE difficult than RP thieving, then your argument holds no ground. When RPing either of them, when it gets down to it, they are the same.

Arkadia Misella · Post by **Arkadia Misella** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 3:35 am

Roleplay is Roleplay, no matter what you are doing (example : Fighting, eating, thieving, playing games, having sex)

You either have the ability to roleplay, or you do not.

The only thing that makes them different is the unknown factors before the roleplay begins.

1) Two fighters agree to have an RP fight in the tavern......unfortunately they both refuse to lose.

2) A thief is RP'ing with someone and another walks in on the robbery, chases down the robber, and pk's them.

3) A couple are getting intimant and another shows up, trying his best to get involved and become obnoxious and intrusive whilst laughing his ass off ooc at them.

If you know how to roleplay, everything is the same. It is who else is there that makes the difference between whether it is easy or hard.

Poots · Post by **Poots** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 3:39 am

maybey I'm misunderstanding this, but this is so obvious. when rping fighting, all you do is say #me battles quickly, or #me ducks a blow. and let the skills determin who wins. thievery requires both of the players to cooperate and not use force rp or anything

unless....your talking about those battles where you don't really ctrl click. Ive never seen this happen, and when I did, it was like me slaps somone and walks away. which could cause problems. this should be limited to battles where no one wins, just a little of slapping each other around, if someone is going to win, it should be ctrl click. this is due to those poor loser who say they always win because they have 20 strenght even though they're only 16

my two cents.

Athian · Post by **Athian** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 3:52 am

rp battles can be more then that. i've seen some wise players use weak weapons and rp using there normal swords and axes. this gives time for plenty of #me and still gives the battle some feel.

Poots · Post by **Poots** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 4:05 am

I would have no problem doing it, but it just leaves room for all those babies who want to win at everything.

falco1029 · Post by **falco1029** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 4:11 am

Cliu Beothach wrote:
falco1029 wrote:And you have no real argument about that. Rp fighting is a lot harder for people to agree on, and with npc s and monsters you cant have rp fighting. End of story.
Really?

Quite brash. Unless you state why RP fighting is any MORE difficult than RP thieving, then your argument holds no ground. When RPing either of them, when it gets down to it, they are the same.

I havent sene your reason, yet I need one. So I nee dproof and you dont? Very well. Its like this, broken down into complication points as i call them

Complications with rp fighting:
-Agreeing on who's winning: 5 pts
-way too easy to force rp (#me grabs someone, #me hits someone): 3 pts
-cant work on npcs, or monsters, and thats basically the only way to kill monsters (except magic, but rp magic has some of the same problems, of course, ules has a couple rp magicy things, but thats different): 5 pts
-you smell

: 1 pt
-I pity you: -1 pt

Total: 13 pts (note the two not asctual arguments cancel out, so dont go saying that isnt fair)

Complications with rp thievery
-Seeing thief with bad rp: 3 pts
-Not giving good items: 2 pts
Total: 5 pts

Now granted thats a bit opinionated, but still. Anyway, now advanctages which wil cancel out some or all complication points

Advantages of rp fighting:
-Much more interesting: -3 pts
-Less powergaming: -5 pts
-No killing sprees from powergamers: -3 pts
Total Combined: 2 pts, bad (its positive)

Advantages of rp thiefing:
-Less powergaming: -5 pts
-More interesting: -3 pts
-No champion thieves that just steal from people with no rp: -3 pts
Total combined: -6 pts, good (its negative)

get it?

Rp thievery is a lot easier and better to keep up then rp fighting.
Now would you care to give an actual argument for your side?

Arkadia Misella · Post by **Arkadia Misella** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 4:14 am

I am curious where these "points" came from.

I can go alter those points and get a totally different outcome. So tell me, where did these values come from and how were they assigned?

falco1029 · Post by **falco1029** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 4:15 am

Arkadia Misella wrote:I am curious where these "points" came from.

I can go alter those points and get a totally different outcome. So tell me, where did these values come from and how were they assigned?

Based on how much of a problem or advantage it was If you want just look at the advantages and disadvantages without points, and rp thievery looks a lot bettert than rp fighting.

Cliu Beothach · Post by **Cliu Beothach** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 4:20 am

Complications with rp thievery
-Seeing thief with bad rp: 3 pts
-Not giving good items: 2 pts
Total: 5 pts

Seeing as the points were awarded so arbitrarily, I think I will add my own categories.

Who will win overcome the other (thief of victim) - 100000 points
Way to easy to force RP - 98 points
Can't work on shop merchants and such - 100 points

See, all the little "bad/good sides" of all RP fighting can transfer to RP thievery. It is a simple reason which I have stated since my FIRST post in the topic.

falco1029 · Post by **falco1029** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 4:24 am

Cliu Beothach wrote:
Complications with rp thievery
-Seeing thief with bad rp: 3 pts
-Not giving good items: 2 pts
Total: 5 pts
Seeing as the points were awarded so arbitrarily, I think I will add my own categories.

Who will win overcome the other (thief of victim) - 100000 points
Way to easy to force RP - 98 points
Can't work on shop merchants and such - 100 points

See, all the little "bad/good sides" of all RP fighting can transfer to RP thievery. It is a simple reason which I have stated since my FIRST post in the topic.

The first problem i stated in the thievery one as catching the thief too easily, way to miss that

. You cant force rp thievery because geuss what? Items are coded. Cant rp that item into your bag no matter how hard you try. If you try force rping the person just doesnt give you the item, get it? And as for stealing from npc's, Thats way too easy toa buse, and its a plus that you cant do that, if anything.

Poots · Post by **Poots** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 4:30 am

can't really fight over who wins.

#me reaches into his pouch

#me doesn't notice

*drops item*

or

#me reaches into his pouch

stop thief!

there is never an instance like this

stop thief!

#Me reaches again with super thief skills and takes it

force rp, never happens with a thief, it's way too obvious, but #me punches him can be considered force rp. every robber use #me attempts

Cliu Beothach · Post by **Cliu Beothach** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 4:36 am

falco1029 wrote:
Cliu Beothach wrote:
Complications with rp thievery
-Seeing thief with bad rp: 3 pts
-Not giving good items: 2 pts
Total: 5 pts
Seeing as the points were awarded so arbitrarily, I think I will add my own categories.

Who will win overcome the other (thief of victim) - 100000 points
Way to easy to force RP - 98 points
Can't work on shop merchants and such - 100 points

See, all the little "bad/good sides" of all RP fighting can transfer to RP thievery. It is a simple reason which I have stated since my FIRST post in the topic.
The first problem i stated in the thievery one as catching the thief too easily, way to miss that . You cant force rp thievery because geuss what? Items are coded. Cant rp that item into your bag no matter how hard you try. If you try force rping the person just doesnt give you the item, get it? And as for stealing from npc's, Thats way too easy toa buse, and its a plus that you cant do that, if anything.

#me rips the bag off his shoulder and runs.

A very awkard rping moment, and FORCED rp. It is the same in fighting you can always type #me kills him, but it will be no the same level as force rping in thievery.

Arkadia Misella · Post by **Arkadia Misella** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 4:42 am

#me knocks the unsuspecting helpless victim in the back of the head, knocking them unconcious

#me loots the body, stripping them of everything and runs away