Good Guys Vrs. Bad Guys.. The Uphill walk during a Landslide

[Ziel Oden]

*ROTFLMFAO!!!*

That is the funniest thing I have read in a long time. But, so true.

[Cliu Beothach]

What a waste of time...
This kind of thread always appears and leads to nothing.

And I insist. Don't create a character thinking: "Aah, this one will be a villain, he will like this and hate that..."
Simply create a character, his story and background, and play his role. If his actions will lead him into villany, well, you're playing your character the way you thought him to be.
If you create a character with the "villain" concept already in mind, threads like this one is the result.

One thing that I always notice in these villain concepted characters is that they tend to want to be the fear of a nation in one day. Heroes don't appear in one day, and so will not villains.

And I do think we have some good "villains" IG, yes. It's just that they are too timid to show themselves, that's all.

"Mapping out" your character's future does not promote bad roleplay or failure. It can work both ways.

Well, I never said that.
But most will agree that "mapping out" a future for your character in a world where MANY characters interact is kind of selfish. Simply because every interaction will change this future, somehow. And if you insist on it, it's kind of discarding the rp of others and so... why not play a single player game, then?
I'd say: follow the flow. Thinking how a character will be means nothing if he doesn't have a story to shape him that way. That is what I think. I am not implying a rule or stating everyone should do this way. But I have to add that it always worked for me. Very well, actually.

This is not "selfish", it is just another style of play. Just because you have a future "mapped out" doesn't exclude you from interactions.

[Cain Freemont]

"Mapping out" your character's future does not promote bad roleplay or failure. It can work both ways.

Well, I never said that.
But most will agree that "mapping out" a future for your character in a world where MANY characters interact is kind of selfish. Simply because every interaction will change this future, somehow. And if you insist on it, it's kind of discarding the rp of others and so... why not play a single player game, then?
I'd say: follow the flow. Thinking how a character will be means nothing if he doesn't have a story to shape him that way. That is what I think. I am not implying a rule or stating everyone should do this way. But I have to add that it always worked for me. Very well, actually.

This is not "selfish", it is just another style of play. Just because you have a future "mapped out" doesn't exclude you from interactions.

Just a quick opinion on this:

The way I look at it, you can have a perfectly mapped out character and everything. Its like... your character's fate or destiny. His willpower could easily be what deviates him from that fate. Your will to change, or your will to follow. I wonder how many players actually roleplay their character's willpower.

[Moirear Sian]

I wonder how many players actually roleplay their character's willpower.

Ha ha ha!

[Cain Freemont]

I wonder how many players actually roleplay their character's willpower.

Ha ha ha!

Kind of makes you think, doesn't it?


*imagines a bunch of characters with 3 willpower actually roleplaying it*

Time to take over the world with my 15 willpower!!

[Fooser]

LMAO,

You forgot the senior citizens and pregnant women Thal...

[Moirear Sian]

*imagines a bunch of characters with 3 willpower actually roleplaying it*

*head asplode!*

Time to take over the world with my 15 willpower!!

Gogogogo!!

*cheers*

[Tonkin]

Just a thought on villians, and it may have been tried before but here goes.

As much as I hate to reference it, the new Star Wars series has some good points on how good guys become villians (darth vader) and how a seemingly good guy can actually be a villian (palpatine).

My thoughts are that even reacting to others rp can lead someone to villiany without a huge, unbelievable character change and without anyone noticing the signs until too late. Now as there are other people behind the characters the best is to probably explain the change after the fact by telling the story on the rp board or to narrate the change there as it takes place.

The other thought I had was if done right, while including other people, someone as powerful as maybe the Trollsbane guard commander could turn out to be evil. This just wouldn't be as believable unless some other characters were involved along the way. Using the Star Wars reference, palpatine had bad guys working for him but no one knew who the main boss was and never suspected him until he had the power he wanted.

Another movie reference is the movie The Usual Suspects. I don't know how many people have seen this movie, but the main villian plays himself off as the lowest man on the totem pole and a cripple to boot. The best line in the movie went something like this: "The best trick the devil ever played was convincing the world he didn't exist." If someone were to make someone to head a criminal guild and then only let a few or only one character know that he was the head, he could be a respectable, well liked member of the community until he decided to reveal himself.

Just a few thoughts from someone who is still learning rp and the illarion comunity, someone who doesn't have the skills and the community history knowledge to pull these off but who thinks these might make a fun way to play a villian. And as always these may have been done before,and I am sorry if these aren't new ideas or are bad ideas.

[Bran Cathal]

I wonder how many characters have willpower...
I wonder how many characters have intelligence, I wonder if giving some of our players intelligent characters to play would make any difference to there rp.
Intelligence is a mage stat that is actually its purpose it dictates how much mana you have. Will power dictates how much damage a spell does and essence dictates how much defense one has against spells.
They do in fact have mechanical properties.

By instructing that "leaders" should have will power and intelligence to be "correctly" role played characters. We have decided that all players in power must be by nature a magician build.
This is an elitist rp choice made by people who wish to engage in a unique rp experience. They have the ability to play an intelligent character and wish to play one who will never excel in combat.
Much the same as some players choose to rp a character who only uses daggers or small swords. Even though they realize they will seldom win a PVP combat.
Some players choose to take into account these statistical choices when role playing all power to them.
How ever I find it a cop out to base non game mechanic interaction on statistical choice. As frankly giving a PO who is some what logic challenged a 21 intelligence character will not create a character perceived as smart or articulate.
By that same token willpower will not give some one the patience, charisma, time did I say patience. To lead a guild in Illarion

Unique playing style cannot be dictated by statistics, I hope as the game develops intelligence will be rewarded with a higher skill cap. Willpower a resistance to critical hits and as essence is to be a bard statistic. Something like !w1 "to whisper one square away instead of 3" or some other essence related perk.
Game mechanics should reward stat choice and options the game offers characters should be related to stats. I remain unconvinced that intangible character aspects "wit, charm, smarts" have any real bearing on statistical choice.

Just a flip side of a often mentioned coin.

[Ziel Oden]

I love your ideas and comments, Bran. Very agreeable

[Cain Freemont]

I wonder how many characters have willpower...
I wonder how many characters have intelligence, I wonder if giving some of our players intelligent characters to play would make any difference to there rp.
Intelligence is a mage stat that is actually its purpose it dictates how much mana you have. Will power dictates how much damage a spell does and essence dictates how much defense one has against spells.
They do in fact have mechanical properties.

By instructing that "leaders" should have will power and intelligence to be "correctly" role played characters. We have decided that all players in power must be by nature a magician build.
This is an elitist rp choice made by people who wish to engage in a unique rp experience. They have the ability to play an intelligent character and wish to play one who will never excel in combat.
Much the same as some players choose to rp a character who only uses daggers or small swords. Even though they realize they will seldom win a PVP combat.
Some players choose to take into account these statistical choices when role playing all power to them.
How ever I find it a cop out to base non game mechanic interaction on statistical choice. As frankly giving a PO who is some what logic challenged a 21 intelligence character will not create a character perceived as smart or articulate.
By that same token willpower will not give some one the patience, charisma, time did I say patience. To lead a guild in Illarion

Unique playing style cannot be dictated by statistics, I hope as the game develops intelligence will be rewarded with a higher skill cap. Willpower a resistance to critical hits and as essence is to be a bard statistic. Something like !w1 "to whisper one square away instead of 3" or some other essence related perk.
Game mechanics should reward stat choice and options the game offers characters should be related to stats. I remain unconvinced that intangible character aspects "wit, charm, smarts" have any real bearing on statistical choice.

Just a flip side of a often mentioned coin.

Abraca-rebuttle.

http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... php?t=9047

It doesn't matter what "build" your character is. Maybe you should stay away from arguing the MMO"RP"Gs when trying to discuss an RP game. If you place your stats for willpower (willpower IS your mental capacity, not just your "ability to do damage with spells") at 3, you're expected to adhere to that choice of your decision as to how strong of mind your character is. Otherwise you're just pissing on the roleplay aspect of this game. And really, RP is the entire concept of this game. With skill gain as difficult as it is, people who focus on combat will excel at combat, moreso than some idiot dwarf (as an example) who put his strength at 19 and his willpower at 3 and still tries to be a stubborn dwarf.

[Bran Cathal]

Or maybe I need to examine the in game trend and realize that the players have spoken on this issue.
We should not meta game via messenger regardless a great many plot lines are created, shared and mapped out in msn.
We should not compare skills yet this is done daily, which goes hand in with we should not care about skills but many do.
Now we can get up on the elitist soap box and tell 70% of the community they are pissing on the games role-play.
How ever in my eyes it would be preferable to look at how people are playing the game and realize that if you wish to play a character who is indeed "powerful" you will go for one sided stats. It is in itself a vicious cycle but not one easily unpicked.

I look back I can think of numerous characters who have been awesome warriors and truly strong and imposing characters who bent for nothing. Assuredly they did not have willpower stacked to 18. Some of them are truly loved characters it appears. I find it hard to believe that one siding your stat's is ruining the rp instead perhaps it is making it a much harder act for the dev’s to balance the game.
I can also think of foolish magicians able to cast every spell for spectacular damage who seemed to have the IQ of a wall nut. I happen to be very fond of some of these characters mind you.

In this light surely my statement that technical rewards for stats should be explored so that each stat serves a purpose. This has been done and now you build a character that serves your technical needs. That list has been there for ever dating back to when WP did nothing and as such was not employed by many player's who planned to skill there character up.

With skill gain as difficult as it is, people who focus on combat will excel at combat, moreso than some idiot dwarf (as an example) who put his strength at 19 and his willpower at 3 and still tries to be a stubborn dwarf.

The above player may in your eyes be an idiot how ever he could also be an elvin mage with intelligence at 20 and unable to use 4 syllable words.
The skill gain is laborious this is true how ever your statement is erroneous in as much as I have a mage build who is rather skilled with his staff. I have a warrior build who basically unskilled with said same staff fairs better by far at the undead temple.
You will note i fully respect the player who chooses a strict adherence to attributes in my first post. How ever we cannot pretend the players have not spoken with there choice of character build and rp style.

Now one can rage against this in essence making Illarion an even more inaccessible place and continuing to narrow the player base. Or by taking this realization in ones stride and looking at way to reward each attribute make the game equally rewarding to the.
Balance character.
One sided power player.
No skill pure role player.
We as a community spend far too much time looking down on what is real rp from our perfect height of rp elitism all the while bemoaning low server activity.
If some one wants a knight who can kick ass and talk sweet, has any one in the grand of things had there ability to enjoy the game impeded?

[Gro'bul]

About those things, players should act out their character's attributes theoretically. I agree they should be useful, an archer with minimum intelligence probobly wouldn't even understand how a bow worked, so he probobly couldn't hit anything. Something like lead would take him many long years to learn. Such things sound great to me, but unfortunately this probobly isn't even possible. I asked if intelligence would effect the skill gain system I got no reply or I can't find a yes.

[Bran Cathal]

Your idea about intelligence affecting skill cap is great. So a player who spends 5 fewer points on "combat" skills will easily be more skilled than
18 Dexterity, Agility, Strength, Constitution everything else 3 characters.

Willpower could for example offer a resistance to critical hits an improved parry or numerous advantages.
My point is often what players should be doing is not what they do, do.
Seems to me some what counter productive to list this as cause or case of appalling rp.
It all began back at a time when 18 stat warriors with a double axe. Could easily rule the playing field in PVP.
Now let us be frank if I give a character all 10 and mostly 12's he is not going to be very good at anything.
I come back to intangible statistics like intelligence. I have low intelligence characters so I don’t make them read books, I don’t make them partake in creation of elaborate rituals or the like.
How ever if some one asks a riddle and I the player happen to know it i might just answer, if I can see a fiendish plan I may just embark on it. No statistic is going to make some one who didn’t see them answer.

So we need to break away from statitistics dictating intangible aspects of game play and instead realize that those numbers you punch in are mechanics.

[Ziel Oden]

How about this.. People are guided by their talking skills in some, which is basicly a PO skill. I am not charming, therefor, no charming characters. I simply CANT do it. So, but making a influental charatistic, your saying I should RP him charming. No. How about make the stats like this, and let people RP how ever you want.

Speed.
Blocking.
Strength.
Durrablity.
Mana.
Mage power..

[Cain Freemont]

Or maybe I need to examine the in game trend and realize that the players have spoken on this issue.
We should not meta game via messenger regardless a great many plot lines are created, shared and mapped out in msn.
We should not compare skills yet this is done daily, which goes hand in with we should not care about skills but many do.
Now we can get up on the elitist soap box and tell 70% of the community they are pissing on the games role-play.
How ever in my eyes it would be preferable to look at how people are playing the game and realize that if you wish to play a character who is indeed "powerful" you will go for one sided stats. It is in itself a vicious cycle but not one easily unpicked.

I look back I can think of numerous characters who have been awesome warriors and truly strong and imposing characters who bent for nothing. Assuredly they did not have willpower stacked to 18. Some of them are truly loved characters it appears. I find it hard to believe that one siding your stat's is ruining the rp instead perhaps it is making it a much harder act for the dev’s to balance the game.
I can also think of foolish magicians able to cast every spell for spectacular damage who seemed to have the IQ of a wall nut. I happen to be very fond of some of these characters mind you.

In this light surely my statement that technical rewards for stats should be explored so that each stat serves a purpose. This has been done and now you build a character that serves your technical needs. That list has been there for ever dating back to when WP did nothing and as such was not employed by many player's who planned to skill there character up.

With skill gain as difficult as it is, people who focus on combat will excel at combat, moreso than some idiot dwarf (as an example) who put his strength at 19 and his willpower at 3 and still tries to be a stubborn dwarf.

The above player may in your eyes be an idiot how ever he could also be an elvin mage with intelligence at 20 and unable to use 4 syllable words.
The skill gain is laborious this is true how ever your statement is erroneous in as much as I have a mage build who is rather skilled with his staff. I have a warrior build who basically unskilled with said same staff fairs better by far at the undead temple.
You will note i fully respect the player who chooses a strict adherence to attributes in my first post. How ever we cannot pretend the players have not spoken with there choice of character build and rp style.

Now one can rage against this in essence making Illarion an even more inaccessible place and continuing to narrow the player base. Or by taking this realization in ones stride and looking at way to reward each attribute make the game equally rewarding to the.
Balance character.
One sided power player.
No skill pure role player.
We as a community spend far too much time looking down on what is real rp from our perfect height of rp elitism all the while bemoaning low server activity.
If some one wants a knight who can kick ass and talk sweet, has any one in the grand of things had there ability to enjoy the game impeded?

You're gonna break a finger from repeating the same thing over and over again one day.

Anyway, the only way you're going to "break away from the statistics dictating intangible aspects of game play" is to remove all game statistics and turn this game into a MUD, rather than the GMUD that it already is. Elitism is involved in adhering to a sensible logic that something like willpower would indicate the mind-strength of a person, or that intelligence would determine your character's ability to process complex ideas? No, not even close. Its pretty "If-then" if you ask me.

[Kamik Windslasher ~]

"Mapping out" your character's future does not promote bad roleplay or failure. It can work both ways.

Well, I never said that.
But most will agree that "mapping out" a future for your character in a world where MANY characters interact is kind of selfish. Simply because every interaction will change this future, somehow. And if you insist on it, it's kind of discarding the rp of others and so... why not play a single player game, then?
I'd say: follow the flow. Thinking how a character will be means nothing if he doesn't have a story to shape him that way. That is what I think. I am not implying a rule or stating everyone should do this way. But I have to add that it always worked for me. Very well, actually.

This topic is about good guys and bad guys, right? So let's turn your argument into something about that:

I think its a little puritanical of you to say that mapping out your character is selfish. In the current course of this game, the way the roleplays are going, our characters (if they are truly blank slates) will all end up heroes fighting the GMs. This is very apparent due to the severe amount of heroes and complete lack of villains. If someone were to make a villain, they would need to determine at least a minor future to work towards, otherwise their characters would end up lost in the sea of heroes. Characters need something to work towards, otherwise you end up with too massive a gray area (which is a good thing, except we have too much 'light grey' and not enough 'dark grey').

I have to disagree. If you think so, then how do you explain "Aokan"? He turned to Drakhen's side. You forgot that this game isn't only based on gm-stories. A villain is not only someone with super powers. I will give you an example:
Kamik is a hero-type character. Then, why did someone put a bounty in his head some time ago? "Villains" and "heroes" are merely the angle you look at. It's character development that determines this. Not sorted out and predetermined ideas, and again: IN MY OPINION.
You can have much more success with a character, IN MY OPINION, if you map out his personality and background. This, alone, will lead him into a way, doesn't matter if hero or villain - he will stay inside the concept you made for the character.

[Kamik Windslasher ~]

"Mapping out" your character's future does not promote bad roleplay or failure. It can work both ways.

Well, I never said that.
But most will agree that "mapping out" a future for your character in a world where MANY characters interact is kind of selfish. Simply because every interaction will change this future, somehow. And if you insist on it, it's kind of discarding the rp of others and so... why not play a single player game, then?
I'd say: follow the flow. Thinking how a character will be means nothing if he doesn't have a story to shape him that way. That is what I think. I am not implying a rule or stating everyone should do this way. But I have to add that it always worked for me. Very well, actually.

This is not "selfish", it is just another style of play. Just because you have a future "mapped out" doesn't exclude you from interactions.

That depends to what point the character is mapped out. For example, if you plan a villain character, but due to some event, he got badly injured and was taken care by another character with whom he end up falling in love. Ignoring this fact only to make him the villain you imagined, is selfish to the other player.
Of course he can still be a villain loving someone, I hope you got the idea.

[Cain Freemont]

I have to disagree. If you think so, then how do you explain "Aokan"? He turned to Drakhen's side. You forgot that this game isn't only based on gm-stories. A villain is not only someone with super powers. I will give you an example:
Kamik is a hero-type character. Then, why did someone put a bounty in his head some time ago? "Villains" and "heroes" are merely the angle you look at. It's character development that determines this. Not sorted out and predetermined ideas, and again: IN MY OPINION.
You can have much more success with a character, IN MY OPINION, if you map out his personality and background. This, alone, will lead him into a way, doesn't matter if hero or villain - he will stay inside the concept you made for the character.

Does this help:

IN MY OPINION:
I think its a little puritanical of you to say that mapping out your character is selfish. In the current course of this game, the way the roleplays are going, our characters (if they are truly blank slates) will all end up heroes fighting the GMs. This is very apparent due to the severe amount of heroes and complete lack of villains. If someone were to make a villain, they would need to determine at least a minor future to work towards, otherwise their characters would end up lost in the sea of heroes. Characters need something to work towards, otherwise you end up with too massive a gray area (which is a good thing, except we have too much 'light grey' and not enough 'dark grey').

.. Adding "in my opinion" doesn't change what you mean. I know what you meant, and I offered my own opinion on that view. At some point I'm pretty sure you had to decide, "hmm, okay, I'll join Drahken's side." If someone put a bounty on Kamik's head, then obviously someone doesn't like him. Is there anything that really dictates that a hero-character just doesn't have bounties put on their head? Bad things happen to good people. Not to mention that still doesn't change the fact that the act of mapping out a character's future is something selfish. Based on how easily your character might be persuaded, for whatever reason, you said it yourself:

then how do you explain "Aokan"? He turned to Drakhen's side.

He changed based on changes in his own character and the actions of others around him. Interaction made him change, I'm sure. Mapping out your character's future gives him or her a path, a way to get going, a means for urging forward. Then after he or she gets started, there are ten million things that could happen to make him or her change. Again, how is that selfish? <- Edit: I see your view on how it could be selfish, but again, look at my own explanation.

And trust me, I didn't forget that the game isn't just about GM stories. I never even said anything related to that other than my comment about heroes fighting the GMs (because major events simply can't take place without a GM, 9 times out of 10). Yes, there are plenty of interactions and events that take place without the GMs at all, but these events aren't usually anything drastic.

[Kamik Windslasher ~]

I have to disagree. If you think so, then how do you explain "Aokan"? He turned to Drakhen's side. You forgot that this game isn't only based on gm-stories. A villain is not only someone with super powers. I will give you an example:
Kamik is a hero-type character. Then, why did someone put a bounty in his head some time ago? "Villains" and "heroes" are merely the angle you look at. It's character development that determines this. Not sorted out and predetermined ideas, and again: IN MY OPINION.
You can have much more success with a character, IN MY OPINION, if you map out his personality and background. This, alone, will lead him into a way, doesn't matter if hero or villain - he will stay inside the concept you made for the character.

Does this help:

IN MY OPINION:
I think its a little puritanical of you to say that mapping out your character is selfish. In the current course of this game, the way the roleplays are going, our characters (if they are truly blank slates) will all end up heroes fighting the GMs. This is very apparent due to the severe amount of heroes and complete lack of villains. If someone were to make a villain, they would need to determine at least a minor future to work towards, otherwise their characters would end up lost in the sea of heroes. Characters need something to work towards, otherwise you end up with too massive a gray area (which is a good thing, except we have too much 'light grey' and not enough 'dark grey').

.. Adding "in my opinion" doesn't change what you mean. I know what you meant, and I offered my own opinion on that view. At some point I'm pretty sure you had to decide, "hmm, okay, I'll join Drahken's side." If someone put a bounty on Kamik's head, then obviously someone doesn't like him. Is there anything that really dictates that a hero-character just doesn't have bounties put on their head? Bad things happen to good people. Not to mention that still doesn't change the fact that the act of mapping out a character's future is something selfish. Based on how easily your character might be persuaded, for whatever reason, you said it yourself:

then how do you explain "Aokan"? He turned to Drakhen's side.

He changed based on changes in his own character and the actions of others around him. Interaction made him change, I'm sure. Mapping out your character's future gives him or her a path, a way to get going, a means for urging forward. Then after he or she gets started, there are ten million things that could happen to make him or her change. Again, how is that selfish? <- Edit: I see your view on how it could be selfish, but again, look at my own explanation.

And trust me, I didn't forget that the game isn't just about GM stories. I never even said anything related to that other than my comment about heroes fighting the GMs (because major events simply can't take place without a GM, 9 times out of 10). Yes, there are plenty of interactions and events that take place without the GMs at all, but these events aren't usually anything drastic.

These posts are becoming quite big...
What I mean, actually, is that good and evil, hero and villain, are only concepts created based on your relations IG, your character development... the friends you make, the enemies you make, the events you experience.

Now, click twice over the illarion.exe. You will get a message. On this message reads: "Conflicts and friendships will arise from these contacts". What I am saying is that villains and heroes are merely the way you see other character from the point of view of yours.

Now, back to the topic. If you develop your character and his ways turn him into a villain (his beliefs, personality and etc) and you don't want to get his ass kicked by a group of heroes... well, then make a group of villains!

[Misjbar]

Now, back to the topic. If you develop your character and his ways turn him into a villain (his beliefs, personality and etc) and you don't want to get his ass kicked by a group of heroes... well, then make a group of villains!

Isn't this already happening, considering Dravish is gathering up people?

[Kamik Windslasher ~]

Now, back to the topic. If you develop your character and his ways turn him into a villain (his beliefs, personality and etc) and you don't want to get his ass kicked by a group of heroes... well, then make a group of villains!

Isn't this already happening, considering Dravish is gathering up people?

For him, yes.
But many people complain about this subject, and more than one time.
It's not the first time a thread like this shows up.

[Moirear Sian]

About the skills subject; you can legitly and gradually work on the character's skills. Although they won't come over night, some are easier to gain in than others. Especially fighting skills, are virtually the easiest skills to gain in, imho. Take my word on it; this game has grown beyond the point where I'm too dumb and impatient to find out how to work features like crafting, and even I can manage the fighting skills thing somehow.

And I'm pretty sure it's not crafting skills that most villain players in the coming are worried about.

[Aristeaus]

On the stats side..

The PO a char with 21 Int. who for say for example is me (( Dum Dum ))
Lets call his char Frank

The PC a char with 3 Int, who for say for example is sian (( I like long posts ye'all ))
Lets call his char Bob

Frank : (( Im stupid, but my char is smart, so you got to let me win arguement Aight ))

Bob : (( Hmmm ok my mentally deranged friend, it shall be done ))

Frank : I am Frank super mage yes! my knowledge rule whole world!!#

Bob : Oh Frank, you godly being of superier intelect teach me more!

(( well enough of that ))

Stats dictate the chars abilities, the PO the char :p

[Ziel Oden]

*bows before Aristeaus*

[Bran Cathal]

Aristeaus rests my case,
Apology for repetition just didnt seem i was being clear.

[Athian]

Now let us be frank if I give a character all 10 and mostly 12's he is not going to be very good at anything.

i play a characters who's stats are elevens and tweleve, and you can ask around i managed to do just fine that way. in fact i'd like to say i was down right threatening to people. don't worry on a stat point of veiw. for the super fighter types with no magic resistance, well we know what happens to them and for the super mage type character with almost no phyiscal prowless well we know the sotry there to, even characters may not be able to dish out the punishment that high end characters can. but when the skill levels begin to even out thats when all those high end characters start running for cover.
As to playing as your stats are i don't really mind the idea but i really hate when someone comes up to me, sticks me up or what not then whispers ((i have 19 agility)). now techincally that means there fast, but it doens't mean there trained, it doesn't mean they won't get hit if i struggle, in all right i could turn around and beat them senseless, or if im in a good mood i can just allow the robbery, this is one of those techincal aspects that i just can't stand. so i really don't give it much merit, just as if a fellow caster said to me ((i have 19 essence)). i would blow his ass away anyway, might take a bit longer sure but effects still the same. so people with low intelligence i don't think of as stupid, but maybe not clever or able to come up with spur of the moment scheme's they could even be very well book learned but just not be good at being creative, and creativity is what sperates the true shady guy/villian from the mindless beserker. however i'd find it believeable if the not so smart guy spent a month coming up with a dirty cheme that might take another character ten minutes. that end of the spectrum i can deal with.

[Tonkin]

As I understand it, all things are related as much as possible to "reality". Look at real life criminals and you will find some that have a very high IQ, but cannot even read. If you want to be true to skills, they must be broken down further, Inteligence can be broken down into different categories. Someone may have 140 IQ and be able to memorize anything, or they may have 140 IQ and have a terrible memory and be able to do calculus in their head. My car mechanic cannot do complicated mathematics, but he can look at a car and tell what is wrong simply by sound or smell. Does that make him have high inteligence or low? My contractor for my house has very high dexterity as he can make some of the most intricate router designs you have ever seen, but he cannot play the piano. Unless things are broken down more, there will never be true rp based on stats. And to break it down more would require character creation to include giving skills to your character during their creation. This goes back to the previous discussions of doing away with static character stats and having them changeable based on skill. Then you could say ((I have 19 agility from combat training)) and mean it.

[Athian]

personally, it makes sense to have stats move up or down based on actions like training or working, but that pushes the game way to far into the pg paradise realm. having static stats (as annoying as they are sometimes) is a good way to mak sure you get better rp out of characters, or at least more creative solutions. in earnest i'm against rp being paralell standard to stats, nmore over because learning as you've stated has more effect on how one's body or mind would respond rather then the amount of muscle or equations you can handle at once. but this is starting to become a very round about dicussion and more over this is a thread about villians lets not get to off topic.

[Anarchist]

Anyone want to read the tittle of the thred for me?
Why arw we disscusing stat - rp relations now?