Illarion.org

Here is a thought that I just had. Tell me how silly you all think this is. Why don't they make it so that complex objects to craft must be made in stages. For instance, would it really only take a minute or two to craft a firesword....it would be something slowly worked on over the course of days, weeks, or even years depending on your level of dedication to the craft and how elaborate you make it. Since you can have a daily skill cap, why not do that with some items as well. Make a firesword take like five stages of work, and you can only do one per day...or longer period. Like I said....tell me if this is silly

Velin wrote:Here is a thought that I just had. Tell me how silly you all think this is. Why don't they make it so that complex objects to craft must be made in stages. For instance, would it really only take a minute or two to craft a firesword....it would be something slowly worked on over the course of days, weeks, or even years depending on your level of dedication to the craft and how elaborate you make it. Since you can have a daily skill cap, why not do that with some items as well. Make a firesword take like five stages of work, and you can only do one per day...or longer period. Like I said....tell me if this is silly

I think this is a good idea, but putting it in game would be the hard part. I had an idea like : For every coal and iron it takes to make an item, it requires that many minutes to make it. The hammering and banging constantly replays through this process. There would be a possibility to stop such as pressing one of the arrow keys, you would have to start over from the beginning though. This way people could not sneak up on smiths and kill them and take things, a plate armor would take like 17 minutes or something I think to make. Except for silverbrand, the threat of theives would probobly keep players from ignoring the game. Same thing with tailoring, carpentry, goldsmithing, gem cutting, ect.

a plate armor would take like 17 minutes or something I think to make.

Horror!

I think, that this would make the whole smithing-mining procedure even more unattractive than it is now. This is not the way to help the sitiuation.

Caranthir the great wrote:

a plate armor would take like 17 minutes or something I think to make.

Horror!

I think, that this would make the whole smithing-mining procedure even more unattractive than it is now. This is not the way to help the sitiuation.

Making large sums of money from 1 object I would not say it was unattractive. An item that takes 1 coal and 1 iron would only take 2 minutes. I think some minutes instead of days or weeks sounds more appealing.

So, anyway.

Here's my latest take on "Powergaming":

Observations

• • The client makes it so you have to take months till you can play a character the way you've conceived the character with background, personality, etc.
  • The community (or a large part thereof) holds firmly onto the opinion that an older character should be considerably more powerful than a new one
  • There is a low amount of players simultaneously online
  • (Perhaps thanks to the account approval system) There are practically only "good" roleplayers involved in playing this game

Deductions

• • The fun in roleplaying is reduced due to the fact that someone won't take your character seriously if the character is not up to par in a certain skill, while at the same time "powergaming" is considered something "illegal"
  • Flexibility of roleplaying in the sense of playing several different characters is minimal, because it's almost impossible to get a single one up to par with the rest
  • Describing "powergaming" as skill/resource-gaining "out of context" (as lengthily detailed in Galim's sermon) is devoid of validity to me, because a) this is a computer game, and when there's two other players online, and your character is incompatible with them, you have nothing else left to do with your time other than work on such skills/resource-gaining, and b) BECAUSE we have such good roleplayers here, I have my strong doubts that ANYBODY does "powergaming out of context of their character"
  • The fun in playing this game is heavily reduced by the fact that players are implied to feel guilty for having breached the "powergaming" "rule" (which imho, comes equal to favoritism as of lates)

Proposals

• • Abolish the term "powergaming"
  • Make it so a character can be "maxed out" in a timespan of 1 week to 1 month (my apologies to you weirdos who believe an old character should be considerably more powerful than a new one)

Thank you for reading.
Some people cannot read, and some people cannot count.
God bless those who are capable of both.

"Intressting" posting you have written here Moirear, allow me to commend it.


To your observations:

• The client makes it so you have to take months till you can play a character the way you've conceived the character with background, personality, etc.

- People who have problems with this, only show me that they have faults in thier background.
I saw so many Characters coming and claiming to very good in something (mostly beating the crap out of my characters) but when the time of words end and the time of action begins they cannot back up thier claims.
This is only partialy the systems fault, I blame it mainly on show-off-players.
I do wonder why you said "personality", what stops a character to have a personality rearding the skill gain ?


• The community (or a large part thereof) holds firmly onto the opinion that an older character should be considerably more powerful than a new one

- I am one of those who think this is perfectly fine.
Since you often repeated that you have been playing DnD for years, let me ask you something:
Is it possible in this system that a years old, campain sesoned character can be beaten with ease by a new created level 1 character ? I dont know, but I doubt this.
I consider the *potential* to be more powerful as a new character as a logic result of spending more time in the game then newcomers.


• There is a low amount of players simultaneously online

- Oh yes, this is because of a horrible lack of advertising in webrings, link-exchanges and such. Blame it on the webmaster and maybe also on the insane amout of handwork in the account procedure.


Steping forward to your deductions:

• The fun in roleplaying is reduced due to the fact that someone won't take your character seriously if the character is not up to par in a certain skill, while at the same time "powergaming" is considered something "illegal"

- Again I think this is mainly a problem of the player, someone who wants to much in a relativly short time.
"I am a good swordfighter, but compared to the veterans in these wild lands I am feeling like a total beginner."
Why not using this to show that your character has a background in fighting with a sword but now is faced with a totaly new situation that he needs to adapt first ?
Player need to keep in mind that they start at point 0, and not at point 10.
So they dont need to reach point 10 before they can "start playing".

Of course, this is only the current situation and proposals about starting skills and different equipment have been brought up several times and were not unnoticed.


• Flexibility of roleplaying in the sense of playing several different characters is minimal, because it's almost impossible to get a single one up to par with the rest

- Many player have different characters.
Getting them "up par" is again thinking that a character has to have X-Skill points to be even worth playing.


• Describing "powergaming" as skill/resource-gaining "out of context" (as lengthily detailed in Galim's sermon) is devoid of validity to me, because a) this is a computer game, and when there's two other players online, and your character is incompatible with them, you have nothing else left to do with your time other than work on such skills/resource-gaining, and b) BECAUSE we have such good roleplayers here, I have my strong doubts that ANYBODY does "powergaming out of context of their character"

- a) Mostly I log out, but thats just me.
b) Boy are you naive. Seeing two characters afk training somehow destroys your picture of a "good roleplayer" world.


• The fun in playing this game is heavily reduced by the fact that players are implied to feel guilty for having breached the "powergaming" "rule" (which imho, comes equal to favoritism as of lates)

- Everybody who breaks a rule should feel guilty, dont you think?
But what really is intressting for me, is what do you mean with "favouritism" in this context ? Care to explain ?


Your conclusions:

• Abolish the term "powergaming"

- Nah, but maybe expand the rules with examples.


• Make it so a character can be "maxed out" in a timespan of 1 week to 1 month (my apologies to you weirdos who believe an old character should be considerably more powerful than a new one)

- And turn Illarion into a Fast-Food-Game (Get in, consume, get out)? Cry me a river.



P.S.:
Hello folks, long time no see

Hi Darlok,

I could go into commenting all the crap you wrote, but as you seem to have not been playing the last few months, I don't feel like elaborating on what you've all written as to it holding no weight to what I wrote up there.

Just stfu and play this game.

I'm out.

Have fun.

You have turned into a little spoiled brat, sadly.

Insulting me wont change the views about Illarion and its players that I hold at the moment.

Quite disapointing to see you degenerating into something that is not even worth to talk to.
I have had a high opinion about you, now this needs to change.

Take care.

Please, stay nice. I don´t have to remember you on this, do I?

Game Rules wrote:3. Insults

All insults directed at the person behind the screen, and not the character, are frowned upon, and will not be tolerated. Neither will all racist and/or sexist remarks.

The reasoning behind so many characters wanting to be so good at something so quickly, is because it's difficult if not outright impossible to go in game and learn from somebody. So they try to do it on their own, no matter how boring or tedious the "training" of a craftsmanship/fighting skill is.

I log in game every 5 to 11 days to see if there's any good interaction or playing going on, and there generally isn't: just a bunch of human males running around trying to raise their skills, who seem to talk like they came out of New York in the year 2004.

Of course somebody who has been around for a year should be much better than some newb, but I still think the skill raise takes too long and is too hard to even desire doing anything but being an IG bum.

Maybe, it should raise quicker, but the "range" of the skills could be wider. As in, you don't see little difference after becoming really good. So the newbies can see an effect, yet the experienced ones should reign over them. Pardon if you don't quite understand.

I could type more but I have math homework to do.

Of course somebody who has been around for a year should be much better than some newb, ...

I disagree. The player may have been playing the character for a few weeks but the character may be 45 years old. Why should 45 year old warrior be unable to defeat flies, yet an 18 year old one can defeat a Troll?
Let me preempt the "The 45 year old is past it while the 18 year old is coming into his prime." arguement by saying Just adjust the age and character type / situation until it works for you.

Bloodhearte wrote:The reasoning behind so many characters wanting to be so good at something so quickly, is because it's difficult if not outright impossible to go in game and learn from somebody.

Not even necessarily getting good at something, just to have something to live off of. And secondly, you're right about the learning thing. Illarion went down a path that relies more on teachers, but it isn't really working. Sure, there is some teaching, but in general, too few teachers, too few opportunities, ect. If someone is trying to learn druidry, or some other more in-depth job, good luck.

Bloodhearte wrote: Maybe, it should raise quicker, but the "range" of the skills could be wider. As in, you don't see little difference after becoming really good. So the newbies can see an effect, yet the experienced ones should reign over them. Pardon if you don't quite understand.

Also a good idea

Sam wrote: I disagree. The player may have been playing the character for a few weeks but the character may be 45 years old. Why should 45 year old warrior be unable to defeat flies, yet an 18 year old one can defeat a Troll?
Let me preempt the "The 45 year old is past it while the 18 year old is coming into his prime." arguement by saying Just adjust the age and character type / situation until it works for you.

Although amnesia occurs often in Trollsbane, I don't think everyone would have amnesia from moving from one spot to another, which is basically what Darlok is saying. What happened to the sacred realism?

Bah, screw realism.

I have a good 50 years to try and find a teacher of 'closed door,' non commerical crap Chinese martial arts. I, however, do not have 50 years to try and find a high quality magical instructor in Illarion.

Sam wrote: I disagree. The player may have been playing the character for a few weeks but the character may be 45 years old. Why should 45 year old warrior be unable to defeat flies, yet an 18 year old one can defeat a Troll?

This is in my eyes a flaw in the background of the 45year-old-char.
Assuming he is already aged leads you to the false asumtion that he is able to defeat many dangers he encounters on the island.
Such a point of view only leads to frustration and wont bring you far.

If you realy want to bring in seasoned fighters and such, make them suprised by the opponents they meet on the Islands, force them to discard thier past knowledge and adapt to new situations.
Who said our fist-sized Killerinsect Swarm is that common in the rest of the world, so that everybody who ever hold a sword in his hand is able to kill them with ease ?

As long as you accept that your new character, no matter the age or background, is a blank sheet of paper when he arrives, and not trying to set up "background skills" you will not get that easily turned down and frustrated.


To clarify one thing, I am not saying that we should keep our current skill system or saying that its perfect the way it is.
I have made enouth proposals concerning changes in the skills myself to say otherwise.

As for the fifty years to find a magic teacher in Illarion, that is simply a gross over exaggeration. The teachers are out there if you're willing to roleplay through it. If you aren't, there are teachers who will run you through it McDonald's style. If that doesn't suffice, the way to do it is right there in the library and in a few careful hints.

The resources are there, now more than ever. It was difficult when the magic system had just changed, but it is simple now. I, frankly, can't see where people got this idea that it is so hard to find a teacher. Hell, my one character has gone through three. If I can find three (and I know of quite a few more who will teach) then anyone else can find ten people to teach them. I don't have as much time as most other Illarion players.

The problem isn't the lack of teachers. It's in the lack of spells. I know it sounds crazy, but follow with me for a while. With so few spells, having a handful of runes is useless. That being said, learning magic is expensive, either for the student or the teacher. If having a handful of runes allowed one to cast more than a few spells, it wouldn't be so bad to only know a few runes. (In fact, some people might specialize, picking runes that seem more in line with their character and thereby having the spells at hand that they would use the most. I, for one, would like that a lot.) That would severely reduce cost and open magic to a much larger group of people.

Anyhow, a lot of your complaints, Bloodhearte (and keep in mind that I agree with some of them quite a bit), seem to relate to out-of-game time. I find myself in a similar situation where the time I most often get to play is when there are so few people online. Often I take the opportunity to do more in-depth and personal roleplay with, well, whoever the other person is that is online. However, this isn't befitting many characters. Your most famous character, for example, is an infamous baddy, whom I'm sure doesn't get time to chat it up with the locals. I'm, on the other hand, in the money spot of having a highly social and weasely villain, which brings me to another point.

This little bit might start out sounding out-of-context, but please read forward. Every form of art has it's limitations and/or rules. The painter is limited by the tools he uses, while the poet deals with the various restrictions of his artform. Often, as a result, the end product is so much different than the original intentions. Nonetheless, it is a finished product and it's still art.

In Illarion, we are limited by the client and restricted by the rules. As a result, it doesn't really make sense to make a 45 year old character that is also a great warrior. However, there are plenty of ways to get around this or explain how an expert warrior comes into trouble against swarms of insects (A past injury. Difference in scale of opposition coming from civilized lands to frontier. Disease. Death and ressurection. etc..) There are three options, in the end. You can surrender to the limitations and give up, you can create a fix in your background history and waltz around the limitations, or you can use the limitations to your advantage, planning with them in mind while writing your background history.

My favorite option is neither of the three. I make concepts, not backgrounds. When someone asks for a background the first time, it is made, based on the concept.

Moskher Heszche wrote:As for the fifty years to find a magic teacher in Illarion, that is simply a gross over exaggeration. The teachers are out there if you're willing to roleplay through it. If you aren't, there are teachers who will run you through it McDonald's style. If that doesn't suffice, the way to do it is right there in the library and in a few careful hints.

I'm aware of my hyperbole, but my point was it shouldn't take real life time lengths to find a good teacher.

I mean, one of my supposed magic learners has been around for seven months and hasn't learned a single rune. As an example.

Moskher Heszche wrote:The resources are there, now more than ever. It was difficult when the magic system had just changed, but it is simple now. I, frankly, can't see where people got this idea that it is so hard to find a teacher. Hell, my one character has gone through three. If I can find three (and I know of quite a few more who will teach) then anyone else can find ten people to teach them. I don't have as much time as most other Illarion players.

Maybe you have luck on your side, because when I log in, there's no more than 4 players online and none would be willing to trade a booger with you let alone rune knowledge.

But, all I can offer you is my own witnessing. I haven't the log files of other players.

The problem isn't the lack of teachers. It's in the lack of spells. I know it sounds crazy, but follow with me for a while. With so few spells, having a handful of runes is useless. That being said, learning magic is expensive, either for the student or the teacher. If having a handful of runes allowed one to cast more than a few spells, it wouldn't be so bad to only know a few runes. (In fact, some people might specialize, picking runes that seem more in line with their character and thereby having the spells at hand that they would use the most. I, for one, would like that a lot.) That would severely reduce cost and open magic to a much larger group of people.

Never thought about that.

Anyhow, a lot of your complaints, Bloodhearte (and keep in mind that I agree with some of them quite a bit), seem to relate to out-of-game time. I find myself in a similar situation where the time I most often get to play is when there are so few people online. Often I take the opportunity to do more in-depth and personal roleplay with, well, whoever the other person is that is online. However, this isn't befitting many characters. Your most famous character, for example, is an infamous baddy, whom I'm sure doesn't get time to chat it up with the locals. I'm, on the other hand, in the money spot of having a highly social and weasely villain, which brings me to another point.

I think it has to do with the IG time too. Between school and work, Illarion is hard.

This little bit might start out sounding out-of-context, but please read forward. Every form of art has it's limitations and/or rules. The painter is limited by the tools he uses, while the poet deals with the various restrictions of his artform. Often, as a result, the end product is so much different than the original intentions. Nonetheless, it is a finished product and it's still art.

In Illarion, we are limited by the client and restricted by the rules. As a result, it doesn't really make sense to make a 45 year old character that is also a great warrior. However, there are plenty of ways to get around this or explain how an expert warrior comes into trouble against swarms of insects (A past injury. Difference in scale of opposition coming from civilized lands to frontier. Disease. Death and ressurection. etc..) There are three options, in the end. You can surrender to the limitations and give up, you can create a fix in your background history and waltz around the limitations, or you can use the limitations to your advantage, planning with them in mind while writing your background history.

My favorite option is neither of the three. I make concepts, not backgrounds. When someone asks for a background the first time, it is made, based on the concept.

I figure, that people shouldn't make old characters if they plan to make them already special in something. It's best to start young and build from there, maybe following the IG calendar. I haven't many constructive comments regarding the "45 year old warrior" concept.

I knew I shouldn't have used a warrior as an example .

What I'm trying to get across is that any character in any trade is forced to "forget" everything he has known once he sets foot on Illarion soil for the first time. It means that they have to either wait until they have the skills to perform;RP that making a cake (or whatever *sigh*) is completely different on this island or make invisible stuff and hope the other person plays along. Invisible stuff doesn't pay very well by the way.

Jesus, its a gamne is you font like it dont play there is the solucutin to the problem!

I understand your point, Sam, and please notice that although I used your warrior example as an example in my post, it fits other things as well. The point I was trying to get past was: Use the limitations of the client to your advantage when creating a character history.

Hermie,

Please. As far as I can tell everyone was being pleasant. There are things to debate over and propose. No one's arguing.

That is rediculas, to come to the isle then right when you come you train tain tain tain?? Just because you said your cahr was this accomplished 45 year old fighter?? That is rediculas i mean seriously, The new players have not even proven there RP and you want to say "Yes its alright you can Power game." ?? Well it took my two fightings chars to get some good stats about......more than 3 month, wanna know why??? Cause i Rped!!!! Constaint Pg restricks Rp so there for, it should not be allowed in Illa.

Lorck try to forget that I ever mentioned fighters, and take a breath . The entrance exam seems to test RP skills quite well. For those that do get through that perhaps are lacking a little, I've not met even one who was not ready to listen to suggestions and change the way they play to fit in. I am NOT for a moment suggesting that everyone trains all their skills "To the Max". I am suggesting they be alowed to work hard (powergame?!?) the skills that apply to their characters.

Moskher the problem with using the limitations is that all characters, no matter their age or experience have to forget everything in their past as soon as they step on Illarion soil. Or pretend that Illarion is so different from anywhere else that everything is done differently. I do see your point though. The game does allow people to develop weaknesses as well as strengths. I think I need to rethink how I'm looking at this.

Hermie I'm not Jesus I just haven't shaved for a few days. Easy mistake to make though . Yes it is just a game, and if I come across something I don't like I can just quit the game and delete it from my system. But I would rather put the problem forward for debate, consider the answers and then choose what to do. One day it might mean quiting, but sometimes it might lead to a change. The change could be in the game or it could be the way I view the situation.

Sam wrote:I am suggesting they be alowed to work hard (powergame?!?) the skills that apply to their characters.

I am taking this single sentance out from you posting, to illustrate a general thinking of some players.

I slowly belive that some players hold the opinion:
"The System should adapt to my playing style."
This is simply impossible at the moment.
We have to understand that we are playing, and in near future keep playing, with a very static system.
This system threats everyone equal by saying: You start at zero no matter what.

We can only play this game when we adapt to this system, which means we have to simply accept that our characters will not be able to do anything right, no matter what they have experienced in thier imagined past.

Of course we want to raise them as soon as possible to our imagined ideal of what our character should be able to do,
but extended working just to raise the skills under the cover to make this character "playable" in the eyes of the player is simply wrong.
This is powergaming, not matter how we try to justify it.

First steps to prevent fresh character powergaming has been made as soon as characters could only learn as much in a set period of time.
This indicates me the way the Illarion Team wants to go.
Next steps might be a smaller steps in skill raising, so the player has smaller but more success moments.
Or even starting skills, so the player can chose a set of skills when creating the character.

To end this part of the discussion for my person I say:
Try to keep your characters past neutral when creating it, especialy the part of thier former professions.
Raising Character skills only to match the skills the character should have based upon the past of the character is not justifyable ingame.
Thats why it is powergaming.



The actual intressting point to discuss would be:

Is powergaming even possible right now ?
With the time learning curve in power, can we really powergame ?
Or is this technical barrier showing us how much and long we can "work" on our characters skills ?

Darlock you explained it very welll, my oppinion is very similer to yours in this topic. I believe that your chars past should remain neutral other than your char once being a grand warrior or black smith in thier land. The questions you posted at the bottom of your post, Darlock, those are the questions those who want to "be powergammers" or "those who wish to learn where the power gamming limit is" should be asking.

Well, I dont think I powergame, but I still think these questions are intressting.
Granted, only the Staff can truly answer them, since only they know how the new skill-by-time-system works, but the optionis of the players is still of my intrest.

I brought these questions up, since some of the players seem to either want a clearer "black n' white"-powergaming rule or a total removement of this rule.
Only when there is a fool proof technical way to prevent powergaming, then you can say this rule is useless.
So basicly I am giving them a straw to pull on.


All in all I can only say, Powergaming is something that comes in all shades of grey.
You will never find a really clear and all explaining rule for it, each situation is different and needs a individual judying of the involved parties.
Thats why I dont think we can get some different explaination then:

"Raising your characters skills over an extended time, without or only little roleplay reason."

I do understand, or I'm at least coming to understand , that I need to adapt to the game and not expect the game to adapt to me. But Through these boards we have the oportunity to suggest how to make things "better" in the next incarnation. I put "better" because, as you know, one persons idea of "better" is anothers "Hell".

My concern is the story behind the character, which will probably be more important if they get the age system in. The character's past is not imagined to him it's real. A middle aged character would be able to do something reasonably well. Although there is nothing wrong with every newcomer to the island being a blank sheet it just adds more to the character if they have some sort of past. I don't mean they should be the best at anything, just reasonable at some things.

I understand this is not implemented now. I understand it might be addressed in a future version. What I am saying is it can be done now by the character if the player is trusted. I think this is the point of the argument. Some players are not trusted by some others.

If powergaming is not possible now then there is no argument. People can finaly relax and start to enjoy themselves without fear that they've breached an invisible limit.

A middle-aged person can be played to do *something* well, but there are so many somethings that are simply not implemented or do not need to be implemented into the system. Think about the middle ages and how many thousands of different jobs there were that have no client equivalent (or even couldn't be implemented. For example, there will never be a "wastrel," "socialite," or "tax collector" skill.) and you may just come up with something.

By George! I think I finally understand.

Thanks Moskher I've been looking at this through too narrow a perspective. I never considered using a trade or way of life outside of what the game provided as a background. I feel a "DOH!" coming on. I have much to learn yet. Thanks for the help all.

Of course, what you're all saying is correct, but still, I played a character (Sian) to be like a ranger when he was new, and guess what? People wouldn't play along, BECAUSE it wasn't implemented in the game. This is not a weakness of the game, this is a weakness of the players. Anyhow, let me move on to the essence of this thread, which is still floating like a Sword of Damocles.

Darlok wrote:Well, I dont think I powergame, but I still think these questions are intressting.

I think you're the worst powergamer ever, but I only know what I've been told by rumors, and it's "illegal" to talk about it, so I won't.

Darlok wrote:I brought these questions up, since some of the players seem to either want a clearer "black n' white"-powergaming rule or a total removement of this rule.

Laughable.
A rule HAS to be "black 'n' white", otherwise it's not a rule.
Remove the powergaming rule, I'll detail below why.

Darlok wrote:Only when there is a fool proof technical way to prevent powergaming, then you can say this rule is useless.
So basicly I am giving them a straw to pull on.

Not true, it's useless because it's a wishy-washy rule that favors some and disfavors others. More below.

Darlok wrote:All in all I can only say, Powergaming is something that comes in all shades of grey.
You will never find a really clear and all explaining rule for it, each situation is different and needs a individual judying of the involved parties.
Thats why I dont think we can get some different explaination then:

"Raising your characters skills over an extended time, without or only little roleplay reason."

Right, here we go: Favouritism.

I'll say it straight: some of my favourite roleplayers were "powergamers". Kasume, Alora, Galim, Konstantin, Shukk, just to name a few, they were always in the game, working on their skills, AND roleplaying. I know though that quite a good deal of people (them amongst eachother included) didn't agree with this style of playing, and that's too damn bad.

Because their roleplaying was agreeable to me, and they were a good deal of reasoning why I even played this game.

So let me get to the point.

You WANT powergamers on illarion. Because you don't seem to understand that "powergamer" is not a negative term in other games. A "powergamer" is someone who moves within the boundaries of a game, and enjoys the system to its fullest. Yeah, they play more than you. Yeah, they get an edge further than you and have the advantage over you.

So friggin' what.

What you DON'T want are cheaters and hackers. You'd want rules against cheating and hacking (two people bopping eachother while AFK is clearly cheating, while RPing and killing fifty monsters is "only" powergaming), but you wouldn't want rules concerning "powergaming" because:

All it results in is people pointing the fingers at others. We know humans. Humans love making scapegoats, and the Illarion "community" has created its share of them. I'm sick of hearing "Grant was a PGer", "Konstantin was a PGer", "Alora was a PGer", because as long as they didn't cheat/hack, I have no problem with the aspect of powergaming.

What *I* want is that this "community" finally gets their rules straight. Rules are devoid of purpose if they're not executed with absoluteness. And they're the source of reason why I say "community", and not community, because my impression is that there's a big bunch of judgemental bums playing this game who'd rather scam players they personally don't like, out of the game, using judgements based on these "rules".

Ich habe fertig.

I dont usually get involved in these debates as i find them quite pointless and boring But im home from work early.

I agree with Sian.

If there are only a few people online, you will more than likely ' Powergame ' Powergame is not just fighting, the people you see cutting down forests of trees are powering as are the sand diggers.

What else are you suppose to do? Have a nice chat with Sam?

I suppose that, reading the above, I can agree that although I dislike powergaming off-hand, it is when powergaming becomes disruptive that I absolutely despise it.

What I mean is that my dislike of powergaming is completely personal. However, powergaming can easily become disruptive in ways that you wouldn't notice off the bat.

The problem is that when powergamers throw their weight around, it is definitely disruptive, especially if we are to say that we believe in true roleplaying. When I have to quit my job to keep up with someone who has hours upon hours to gain skill only to be actively involved with the storyline of the game, I suppose you win, because I'll quit.

As I've said to you in IMs, Eric with a C, there is plenty of documentation that says the expectations of the game, and there are games out there that allow both roleplaying and powergaming, as you've found. One reason, among many, that I like Illarion the way it is is that I can roleplay my way through situations. When the powergaming can bypass me at what I'm good at, without the roleplaying, simply because that person can take on the whole island, we have a problem.

There are cases where the above has happened, and you would know them as well as anyone else. You were there with me in situations where months worth of roleplaying was shot out the window for the sake of a group of powergamers who shot up their skills in a matter of weeks.

Also, I find it interesting that some of the above referenced people also were known for other breaks of rules altogether unrelated to powergaming, such as passing information and items between characters. That being said, perhaps powergaming is the gateway drug of Illarion.