Roleplay or Persona Play?

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 2:32 pm

The Grey Castle was placed there strategically so. This way the town cannot be flanked by ground forces without boats, and would still have access to one half of the island or the other to ship in supplies and/or reinforcements if need be. There are not ships on the island to use, so you could not use one obviously. Now swimming might be a different story, especially for lizards.

Kasume · Post by **Kasume** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 5:20 pm

Konstantin K wrote:Is this a sample of poor RP below?

Player A sees player B on the North-West side of the Troll's Bane town. Player B is not allowed to cross the town borders.

Player A frowns.
Player A: Last time I saw you, you were in the South. It means you have crossed the town.
Player B: Not at all. I used my little boat and rode around.
Player A: Right...

Now, is it fair to deny this possibility, knowing that technical capabilities of the game client do not support boat travel and that the map is divided in such way that you cannot go from south to north without crossing the town? If you read the RPG forums and character descriptions, it is clear that player A does in fact own a boat. But if you view it OOC, the character cannot use a boat ingame. So, is this fair or is this abuse of technical knowledge of the game?
(by the way, why IS the map divided this way? Make a detour!)

Opinions, please.

That has been gone over before. I suggest you simply drop it. There are no boats in Illarion. Meaning you didn't use a boat. And you didn't swim. Some like to think it, the strong currents cause you to not be able to ride a boat.

You need to take more into account, you can't just say you rode a boat somewhere all of the time.

Moathia · Post by **Moathia** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 5:24 pm

Konstantin, it is equally fair to say that character A doesn't want to believe you used a boat, and therefore, your character must be lieing about what he did, it's not the player talking it could be the character just doesn't believe your excuse.

Kasume · Post by **Kasume** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 6:05 pm

You also have to think about the fact that one,

Owning a boat is a big part of RP. You need to RP the fact that you hid a boat somewhere. And had to ride tough currents to get to the other side of the island. Trust me, if the gaurd knew about criminals owning a boat, it would be found on the shore and burnt. Or does Konstantin just walk around with a boat in his pocket? You also might want to explain how you got a boat.

The reason I say this is because, soon EVERYONE will have a boat. If they go by your thinking.

Grant Herion · Post by **Grant Herion** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 6:44 pm

There should be a way to the other side of the island, it is incredible obnoxious to be stuck on one off the island when your only banned from the town. And there are boats in this game, that is how you get to the southern isle's of Illarion.

Kasume · Post by **Kasume** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 6:48 pm

That's not a personal boat. Which you cannot use for your own purpose.

Although, no. I don't think that there should be access to everywhere. The character made decisions. If the player can't live with that, then he should have considered that before making his character a criminal.

Galim · Post by **Galim** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 6:49 pm

thats right. if you don't like it to take the disadvantages of a criminal, than don't play one.

Grant Herion · Post by **Grant Herion** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 6:52 pm

Alright Alright, Kasume spam master you have shot me down.
However, not everyone banned from town is a criminal, most had to roleplay with Hagen and Irenicus when they banned the entire Movement, meaning that sure you can blame Grant for fighting Zerbus and Darlok in town, but not the people who were absent, they didn't break any law but they got banned all the same and are still banned I believe.

Kasume · Post by **Kasume** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 6:56 pm

Well then, that's an IG problem that needs solved.

Back to topic.

Hermie · Post by **Hermie** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 7:00 pm

I don't see the need to get to the NW part of the isle and back again ... although, it would be really interesting if there was a tunnel network that goes around the isle, at least from one side to the other. It wouldn't be an empty tunnel, but be full of monsters, and then there can be even deeper tunnels where the more dangerous monsters are .. eg, spiders and rots, maybe demons..

The old demon and spider caves were sort of silly, you just climb down a short ladder and there's a demon stood there. Demons are deadly forms of evil that should be found only in the deepest caves, IMO. I think that would be pretty good.

==><==><==><==

Back to the topic -

Hermie is a little like me, and I suppose that's the way I intended. His background is different to me though, so he does have times when he acts differently.

The rest of my chars I make different, but I've never really bothered to play a truely evil char because, frankly, I don't know how to play one well. I don't want to be a random person who hates the town for some obscure reason and who kills the town guards and runs away etc.

I like the chars that seem nice on the outside, but they have a darker side to them that you don't see, like some hidden agenda or secret hatred and spite of certain people for certain reasons. Just the guy who's always thinking of number 1

Fooser · Post by **Fooser** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 12:13 am

Kasume wrote:Trust me, if the gaurd knew about criminals owning a boat, it would be found on the shore and burnt.

No, it would be more like, "You see your boat right there? Get on it and leave."

Galim wrote:thats right. if you don't like it to take the disadvantages of a criminal, than don't play one.

That would be true if it was an IG problem.
Can't go into town= IG disadvantage
Cant go to the NW part of island= OOC problem

Everyone is always saying on the forums "If it isnt implimented, you can RP it!", but when it comes to swimming or boating, "It isnt implimented."

Moathia · Post by **Moathia** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 12:16 am

Not being able to go to the west side of the island in an IG problem Foos, not ooc.

Nartak Ironmaster · Post by **Nartak Ironmaster** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 6:28 pm

Moathia: Foosers point was, that he, as a lizard, would be RP able to swim to the western part of the island. Even if he now says "I swim there", no one IG is going to believe, because the player know's OOCly, that it is technically not possible to swim.

So it's an OOC problem.

Darlok · Post by **Darlok** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 6:33 pm

Slowly I also think that this is going to become more and more a problem.

Indeed, it is stricly looked at a IC "problem",
but after listening to some players recently it sounds more like:

"Play a good role, or forget about it."

I would really love to see a solution for this situation.

Moirear Sian · Post by **Moirear Sian** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 6:55 pm

Yes, it is indeed a problem, because it's underlying a contradiction. While the game encourages players to also take on roles of villains and bad guys, there is no possibility to equalize for the fact that characters banned from town can't move about the island freely. The game dictates solid RP, but when someone suddenly plays a villain and does "evil" things, the players of the "good" characters take the chance to undermine their adversaries and say they're bad RPers? That makes no sense. The bad guys are the flesh and meat to interesting things happening. If it wasn't for them, Illarion would be like SimCity in a medieval fantasy setting, or like Illagotchi (© 2004 by Cassandra Fjurin).
The fact that people banned from town cannot move about the rest of the island freely, blocks them off of some substantial resources, depending on the character (they already can't use the facilities in town anyway - unless they sneak in - and we're speaking also of people who might be interested in not entering town again at all, after they were banned). This blocks off gaining certain items and skills - which in my opinion should become more important to someone who's self-sufficient and outside of town on his own - the way it is; most people in town can and will exercise every thinkable craftmanship skill. I think in reality, it would be the other way around: someone living outside of town would rather be more self-sufficient, craftier, and find ways to get around most things, while people in the town have grown dependant of eachother, and perhaps even too lazy and "noble" to exercise more than one profession.
Perhaps the possibility of building/using small boats (these could be used also for fishing out on sea and introducing other types of fish, naval combat etc.) could be implemented over time? Or even simpler, a ferryman who'll take you for rides between certain spots for a fee or for an item, i.e. connecting 3-5 spots around the map by a sea route.

Salathe · Post by **Salathe** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 7:02 pm

the distance from one section of the island to another isnt that far water wise... it seems pretty reasonable for many people to be able to swim that distance, if players cant swim, it doesnt make much sense for players to be able to sit, smile, wink, stand up, fall down, any of that.

It makes ssoooooo much sense to swim from one part of the island to another. Because my friends, its called roleplaying. But yea one would have to actually go through town, the way i would think to go about this is to just go through town when no ones around so your not actually there in any other characters eyes and just... well it never happened to your character.... i dunno... its a bitch that we cant swim or nothin, and it sorta seems that castle was put there with ooc technicalities in mind

but thats how we use our imagination!!! Thats why we say "hey look he just got hit" instead of "Hey look a little x just appeared on him... and whats that red square around his feet?"

back to the topic you llamas!!!

yea.. persona play is bad

but it doesnt matter at all how much a character is like a player as long as it works for the characters race/background/etc. Salathe has blue eyes, so do i... OMG!!!!! WE ARE THE SAME PERSON!!! Similarities happen =D

Konstantin K · Post by **Konstantin K** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:35 pm

@Kasume.

I was talking about my character, and if you ever take time to study my char's history (which I HIGHLY doubt you did), you will know that I showed many times with my RP that he owns a small boat.
Example is my huge character's history, described on RPG board in the thread "Letters to the Sands". Far from a masterpiece, but is as is. My char used to be a pirate, and his ship was destroyed, but a rescue boat survived. He hid it in southern docks, where Bloodhearte used to live. Konstantin can use this boat to ride around. He arrived to the island by boat.

@Moirear Sian.

My thoughts exactly on outside-of-town craftsmanship. That is exactly how it used to be until smithing and mining were tied to anvils and mines. People used to be able to smith anywhere on the map, using natural stones as anvils.

@Galim.

After a criminal gets a lifetime ban, his ban should end as he is killed (end of lifetime). My character was killed amazingly often after his ban (which I was not aware of, it happened when I took a 5 motnhs break from the game), and his sins should long ago be washed away with deaths.
After a death, a character should get his chances until he is caught with a crime or banned again.
Otherwise death becomes meaningless. Think of it - death is huge process, a transformation of body and mind. Don't you think a revival of a person is a spiritually big deal? You people treat death like a toy.
Death is a freaking death!
That is why I do not immidiately follow to the cross and walk away happy.
It's not realistic, it's not sad.
My killer must realize that I am DEAD. KILLED. GONE.
It must be slow and powerful, otherwise death loses its purpose.

@On Topic

My char is totally a separate individual from myself, but it really pisses me off OOC, when the so called members of "elite", knowing that their chars are stronger than mine, give me no retreat RP, solving everything with PK.

Not ever once I saw an enemy let me use some character weaknesses.
Even if your perception is 3, you see me in disguise all the time.
Even if your dexterity is 4, you never slip up upon a wet spot.
You see perfectly in the darkness, your shots and spells never miss, you are smart and know everything, and impossible to trick.
Even if your strength is less than mine, you always break my strangle if I put my hands around your neck. People just use the ATTACK function ingame a lot more often than they use #me commands to fight.

My char's recent death showed you very well, that I had no intention of PKing any of the present characters. If you're so good, you could have thrown a rope over my feet, didn't have to PK a char. What ever happened to "giving a chance to escape", "taking a criminal in alive"? Where is heroism in PKing a weaker, non-attacking char?

I dunno, this sounds like a bunch of OOC complaining, and it is, but I just cannot get my point across, I guess.

Kasume · Post by **Kasume** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:43 pm

I was talking about my character, and if you ever take time to study my char's history (which I HIGHLY doubt you did), you will know that I showed many times with my RP that he owns a small boat.
Example is my huge character's history, described on RPG board in the thread "Letters to the Sands". Far from a masterpiece, but is as is. My char used to be a pirate, and his ship was destroyed, but a rescue boat survived. He hid it in southern docks, where Bloodhearte used to live. Konstantin can use this boat to ride around. He arrived to the island by boat.

Ok then.

You're character owns a boat. Where does he keep it? Does he hide it? When did you use the boat? At night?
Personally, there should be NO personal boats. Otherwise, there would be hundreds of left over boats left by the people who used to play the game all hiden away in the forest. It's just a ridiculous thought. If we can have personal boats. Then who wouldn't have one? It's just how society works.

After a criminal gets a lifetime ban, his ban should end as he is killed (end of lifetime). My character was killed amazingly often after his ban (which I was not aware of, it happened when I took a 5 motnhs break from the game), and his sins should long ago be washed away with deaths.
After a death, a character should get his chances until he is caught with a crime or banned again.
Otherwise death becomes meaningless. Think of it - death is huge process, a transformation of body and mind. Don't you think a revival of a person is a spiritually big deal? You people treat death like a toy.
Death is a freaking death!
That is why I do not immidiately follow to the cross and walk away happy.
It's not realistic, it's not sad.
My killer must realize that I am DEAD. KILLED. GONE.
It must be slow and powerful, otherwise death loses its purpose.

I quite disagree.
Death cannot always be taken as just simple death. I agree with that. Although, just because you have been turned into a spirit, does not mean that you are completely dead. You could possibly be "knocked - out" and the form of a spirit is to tell you that you are. In which case, when you float to the cross, you are reawakened. Usually, if you die within town, someone will carry you to the cross.
Although few RP this.
It's sort of like the attack rounds given. Usually a sword that actually hits a person, will kill them in a couple swipes. Although, when parrying, you are weakened. As a sign of your health going down.

There are other ways to think of something. Your way isn't the only. Death isn't always the result of turning into a spirit.

My thoughts exactly on outside-of-town craftsmanship. That is exactly how it used to be until smithing and mining were tied to anvils and mines. People used to be able to smith anywhere on the map, using natural stones as anvils.

I'm sorry, but that's a complete IG problem that needs to be solved while playing the game, or on the RPG boards. Don't complain about it on the General forum board. Actually, kind to think of it, take this entire discussion to the RPG board. Because you're complaining about IG problems.

Konstantin K · Post by **Konstantin K** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:50 pm

No I'm not.
I am discussing an OOC problem.

If building a bridge or a tunnel between south and north was an ingame issue, I would start digging right now. But there is no map editor, and GMs are the only one who change the island.

If it was possible to smith on a rock, I would.

Grant Herion · Post by **Grant Herion** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 11:02 pm

Kasume did you even spend time reading the post Konstantin just did before you argued it? I ask this because you want to know where his boat is hidden and he states that in his second paragraph.
You think its ridiculous idea for people to have personal boats? Do think it is a ridiculous idea for people on an island to not have their own boats as they would most likely be used to the water. And if you want to talk about ridiculous ideas why dont you say the same about:
Silverbrand: It is ridiculous to have a giant underground kingdom on an island as small as it is, silverbrand would have been flooded with sea water at some point.
All ecosystems in one spot- that is pretty ridiculous.
Regrowth of trees- Ridiculous that the trees on this island regrow in a matter of minutes, even in Illarion time it would be hours.
And I could go on about other ridiculous aspects of this game, but it is pointless because this is a roleplaying game, and you want to dictate what people can roleplay and what they cant. Your arguement is that there would be hundreds of boats on the island. Why couldn't you roleplay some rotted and some were at the docks on the island?

Your arguement about death not really being death contradicts the game. When your character turns into a spirit, (because that is what he becomes if you remember the spirit of mind they look the same), you get a message saying something like "Your are dead go to the nearest cross". Concerning being knocked out, I am not sure if you were around when they first tried implementing it but for a couple of weeks they had a fighting system where a person could get knocked out before he died, you become a spirit to show you were knocked out. Unfortunetly you couldn't do anything and unless a mage came you were going to die.

And your last paragraph I dont see how you could be any further from the truth. Konstantin was saying that people used to be able to survive out in the wilderness but because of game changes a person now must use an anvil to make a weapon and use more objects that are found in town hence stopping anyone from living out of town and wishing to be able to survive. How could he argue that in the rpg forum? Go back to the test forum and spam there. *cheap shot*

I do agree with Konstantin that death is taken very lightly here. I always say there should be something else a person must do to come back. My suggestion, (tho it is in the wrong forum), would be that when the spirit reaches the cross, instead of turning into the regular avatar of a man or lizard, the spirit would be sent to a road in another plain? The spirit would turn into it's regular avatar at this time, but the player would need to walk his character through say 5 minutes of boring grass and nothingness til it reaches a portal or something that warps it to the library. This would make people think about dieing because of the long walk and the amount of time out of game would cool people's tempers so they wouldn't run into a fight again.

Kasume · Post by **Kasume** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 11:39 pm

Kasume did you even spend time reading the post Konstantin just did before you argued it? I ask this because you want to know where his boat is hidden and he states that in his second paragraph.
You think its ridiculous idea for people to have personal boats? Do think it is a ridiculous idea for people on an island to not have their own boats as they would most likely be used to the water. And if you want to talk about ridiculous ideas why dont you say the same about:
Silverbrand: It is ridiculous to have a giant underground kingdom on an island as small as it is, silverbrand would have been flooded with sea water at some point.
All ecosystems in one spot- that is pretty ridiculous.
Regrowth of trees- Ridiculous that the trees on this island regrow in a matter of minutes, even in Illarion time it would be hours.
And I could go on about other ridiculous aspects of this game, but it is pointless because this is a roleplaying game, and you want to dictate what people can roleplay and what they cant. Your arguement is that there would be hundreds of boats on the island. Why couldn't you roleplay some rotted and some were at the docks on the island?

You completely ignored what I had written Grant. Nice work.

Your arguement about death not really being death contradicts the game. When your character turns into a spirit, (because that is what he becomes if you remember the spirit of mind they look the same), you get a message saying something like "Your are dead go to the nearest cross". Concerning being knocked out, I am not sure if you were around when they first tried implementing it but for a couple of weeks they had a fighting system where a person could get knocked out before he died, you become a spirit to show you were knocked out. Unfortunetly you couldn't do anything and unless a mage came you were going to die.

I failed to see your point.

I do agree with Konstantin that death is taken very lightly here. I always say there should be something else a person must do to come back. My suggestion, (tho it is in the wrong forum), would be that when the spirit reaches the cross, instead of turning into the regular avatar of a man or lizard, the spirit would be sent to a road in another plain? The spirit would turn into it's regular avatar at this time, but the player would need to walk his character through say 5 minutes of boring grass and nothingness til it reaches a portal or something that warps it to the library. This would make people think about dieing because of the long walk and the amount of time out of game would cool people's tempers so they wouldn't run into a fight again.

Death is taken lightly. But do remember, this is a game Grant. Not reality. It's our world that we have created. If the GMs would let us, we would RP us flying around. But unfortunatly, I bet that would be against the rules.
And besides, if you can flash a huge fireball, start a fire from 20 feet away, freeze someone from completely moving with just words, and create food with just a couple of stones with symbols on them, I'm pretty sure you might be able to come back alive all well and good with a few scratches on ya cheek.

And your last paragraph I dont see how you could be any further from the truth. Konstantin was saying that people used to be able to survive out in the wilderness but because of game changes a person now must use an anvil to make a weapon and use more objects that are found in town hence stopping anyone from living out of town and wishing to be able to survive. How could he argue that in the rpg forum? Go back to the test forum and spam there. *cheap shot*

Of course not everything is available to him. Although I seriously doubt that someone living in the forest could learn on their own how to make fine crafted bows and top quality chests either. Nor could they make strong plate mail and have the patience to peice together a chain tunic. The fact is, you're not going to get grandmaster at anything by living in a forest, teaching yourself.

You're simply complaining about an IG problem. End of discussion.

Move on and back to the topic.

The solution for this problem is almost impossible. Unless you went and visited every person of their life styles and their personality before letting them join the game.

Konstantin K · Post by **Konstantin K** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 11:54 pm

Nor could they make strong plate mail and have the patience to peice together a chain tunic. The fact is, you're not going to get grandmaster at anything by living in a forest, teaching yourself.

I think that's not true. It's a common generalization. In medieval times a lot of people tended to move out of the cities and made their little huts or smitheys out of wood, in a primitive, savage way.

It is not impossible to smith on the stones. Anvils were invented to prevent powergaming, and that is an OOC matter.

Kasume · Post by **Kasume** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 11:55 pm

Then chop wood. Sell it. Ask GMs to place you a small hut with an anvil. Pay the GMs for it. And goto town with your blacksmithing frenzy.

I'm done with this now. Unless it's an on topic post.

Val De Gausse · Post by **Val De Gausse** » Tue Aug 10, 2004 1:25 am

I think this whole swimming/boat thing is being disillusioned. We don't mean we will actually RP swimming, but we could RP it as an excuse. When we do, they jump AUTOMATICALLY to a conclusion that it is not possible...

"The current is to quick"

How so, from a swimming on the SHORELINE from oneside of greyrose to another. Unless there is a signifigant dropoff, or something I don't see how the current can be extremely rough. Now I just mean an excuse...

if you get asked this next time...ask Where did you swim...show me.
Not, "HA"

Pronon Palmsuger · Post by **Pronon Palmsuger** » Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:17 am

This isn't a role playing game anymore, its an anti powergaming game. Blocking with two sheilds is like having no sheilds? that doesn't make any sense.

Kasume · Post by **Kasume** » Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:20 am

Pronon Palmsuger wrote:This isn't a role playing game anymore, its an anti powergaming game. Blocking with two sheilds is like having no sheilds? that doesn't make any sense.

Holding two very large shields doesn't make very much sense either. Assuming you're playing a halfling, I find that amusing.

Grant Herion · Post by **Grant Herion** » Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:04 am

oh course the player of pronon might not be a halfling in real life and person this player has other characters

And Pony, your right.

Konstantin K · Post by **Konstantin K** » Tue Aug 10, 2004 7:55 am

Two shields tactic makes sense. It can be used in real life. It requires heavy armor and will make you slow, but surely unpenetrable.

The way two shields work now is kinda wrong.

To be on topic: Yes, I think personal play is wrong and sad. It's for people with no lives.

Aristeaus · Post by **Aristeaus** » Tue Aug 10, 2004 4:41 pm

Hmm if i did Persona play, several people would be dead, or all my characters would be raving lunatics who get drunk,,, wait they are

Arkadia Misella · Post by **Arkadia Misella** » Tue Aug 10, 2004 4:58 pm

I'll jump back a bit to add in a little....

"Living" with a ban is nearly impossible....it means sitting outside of town waiting to buy or sell things to people which eventually you end up begging because you have no depot and no access to anything, you cannot carry out decent plot, and you cannot sneak into town during the night because the guards have their "Invisible guards"....gosh..everyone knows that. I find that characters that have been banned slowly lose interest to play and eventually just vanish from my thoughts. thats why I pushed so hard for Ark....Had she not goten in town again I most likely would not have played her anymore as rp'ing with her was simply obnoxious and a waste of time.