Problem in The Community

[Dantagon Marescot]

There is a war-like atmosphere in game, there will be more hostility because of it. The chance to RP their way out is the door. A very fast and assured choice.

Yes, there is a war-like atmosphere in game; however this does not conclude clouding as an only option. I am not yelling at you specifically, Kent, but instead am pointing out that depending on the players, it is possible to rp out these fights with a group still losing, and no one is mad in the end.

If your character was outnumbered by a group and you asked for an rped fight, I would by all means give it to you and would bitch at anyone in the group that disagreed. Though I would hope that in return you would do the same thing for one of my characters. This way both get away without a clouding which tends to piss people off at times, expecially when they suddenly get outnumbered. Half the time when the powerful "Bad guy" characters are around, my fear is not of a fight, it is getting clouded and getting set back from all the hard work I may have been doing.

Just say something next time OOC saying you would rather do an rped fight. I would gladly do the same, and would gladly cooperate expecially if I am out numbered. But hey, that is just me.

[Konrad Knox]

If someone fears OOC being clouded, why did they pick to play a fighter, a knight, whatever?
Fear OOC is what makes you play the character's fear of death properly.

[Dantagon Marescot]

Which is exactly why Dan avoids fighting others. It crosses over to rp. I mean more that every last conflict ends in clouding when it doesn't need to end in clouding. I have more fun rping fights than I do fighting either a minute skilled fight where I get clouded, or a 10 minute fight where we should be able to cloud someone, but they are constantly running and downing potions and instead cloud us.

I am just pointing out that it is more fun to rp fights like that than it is to ctrl-click.

[Nitram]

sorry, but I think that's just hypocritical.
Everybody tries to win,

And thats the reason for that topic.

mostly in a sitation in which the existence of your char is on a knife's blade (for example wars...).

I guess if everyone plays so others are able to have some fun too, it wouldn't be needed to change that if you character is in a dangerous situation.

You can't seriously tell me that, in a fight, you'd just og like: "Okay, let's RP fine now, ive the other guy a chance to win."

But maybe some roleplay before and after the fight. And a chance for the other one to leave without being clouded. Its the last consequence to use the engine. There are maybe solutions what to do alternativ.

If you'd really want this, you'd just have to disable the CTRL CLICK engine.

That won't happen, since its a needed part of the game.

(Which would be, i think, very good.)

The only reason for this sentence can be, that you did not even think about this for more then 5min.

Nitram

[Llama]

Thou hath been..

NITRAMIFIED!

[Greisling]

1. A KO system would lessen the reasons for POs to be angry about each other. A KO system is strongly needed imho.

2. If Silas really has that opinion he just stated, I am afraid he is definetily not in the right IG position as debuty of the Governor. Being part of Governments means that the POs have to be absolutely aware of the consequences their behaviour might have. They must act carefully and self-reflecting. Every government must have the global aim to make it possible that others have fun. Consequently, just playing for own profit won't help anyone in the end - perhaps we have so much OOC discussion about that, cause parts of the government are not aware of the IG power and responsibility they have.

[Noradur]

thats exactly what i was trying to say, thanks nitters.

now i am still for a threadlock

[Avalyon el'Hattarr]

@Dantagon: I think I like you more
No ,seriously, you are right, but Kent is right as well.. As I said in other posts, you can't possibly expect to get a flower and a pat on the shoulder for pissing a guy that's holding a rocketlauncher. If a powerful fighter/mage/whatever is threatening you with death (threatening = giving a chance) why kill yourself and then bitch on the forum if you caused that? This is a roleplaying game and like many said, every action has a reaction. Being clouded was just you roleplaying your way to it. Killing without any rp wise reason is called PK'g and I am sure that the char in question, even the PO entierly would be banned
And if you want a rp fight, by all means, say it.. I am sure that anyone would enjoy that more than 1 minute / a few seconds fight. BUT if your actions lead you to an engine fight, then it is your own fault for not taking the chances that have been given to you

Just my two cents.
Marius

P.S: yes, a K.O. system would be wonderful

[abcfantasy]

every action has a reaction.

I hope baddies remember that too

Because clearly some do not. (of course there are the goodies as well)

[Avalyon el'Hattarr]

hehe, of course we know that. But, every reaction is also an action, so it will have it's own reaction

[Konrad Knox]

If you are playing a leader of the knighthood, you should be courageous and live for battle. Engine fights or not, when you and your friends are threatened, forget about item and skill loss. Fight with honor and die with honor. It's easy to RP a fight because without really fighting, you have nothing to lose. It's not really a fight then, but some form of self-gratification for the sake of falsified glory.

If you're not the CTRL-click type fighter, perhaps a farmer, a barbarian, or a tavern drunk would be a better role. People hardly get killed in bar fights.
But as a leader of a second largest military force on Gobaith, a force which is bound to make a difference and shift the ingame balance, I think Dantagon should not be afraid to fight, IC or OOC. It takes courage to play a courageous character, otherwise one will only bring laughter upon themselves. Game mechanics are necessary. Builders require real stone, you can't just RP paying them, you have to actually gather items.
Same with winning major battles.

Seriously, i dont see what the big deal. To kill Dain all you need is to surround him with 3 fighters of at least half his level, and a mage healer in the background. It's very easy to do.

I personally agree with Nitram. RP before battle, do battle, RP after battle.
And for Christ's sake, if you dont like dying, back off once past 1/3 health.

[Pellandria]

Most people don't care if you back away, they will just follow you and kill you and why would we do the exactly same thing that we hate, we hate to get clouded, so why cloud other poeple, figthing fire with fire never works, they will just come after you and cloud you with their group, pick you up one at a time, this is a simple devilcircel, which would never end.

[Konrad Knox]

Well, honestly, ever since I returned to Illarion with Konrad, i never clouded anyone. Except one newbie who wouldnt stop attacking me after 10 minutes of trying to stop him.

In my opinion, if the character is winning, and the damage taken is outright sad, aka your opponent is pathetic, you should not be a stinker and cloud them. Just be content that you win. I agree clouding is not necessary and is not the classiest way to win. There is no point in clouding, because it doesnt make you a cool cold-blooded killer. Illarion has no killing, so clouding is pointless. It's just leverage to make people afraid of the stronger animal. But just in case your opponent is an ass and you do get clouded, why complain about it? Just bite it and move on, be wiser next time.

As for "we hate being clouded" - stop hating it. It's part of the game. Who said the game is only about growing, accumulating, consuming, and improving? Losses have to be accepted too. In the end, it just means you will spend extra hour training back up, you'd do it anyway. I mean, clouding makes you lose 2-3 skillpoints, big deal.

Finally, if you're afraid of being clouded, do not get involved in things that get you clouded. Beg to be spared, if you need to, but if your character doesnt beg, they should be prepared for clouding. General rule is - don't be rude to people IG.

[Mr. Cromwell]

Most people don't care if you back away, they will just follow you and kill you and why would we do the exactly same thing that we hate, we hate to get clouded, so why cloud other poeple, figthing fire with fire never works, they will just come after you and cloud you with their group, pick you up one at a time, this is a simple devilcircel, which would never end.

I wouldn't comment otherwise unless hearing this from you in particular.

You have an exceptional background of asking to be clouded with Pellandria. Just for the record, I've never had you clouded by anyone, though for IC reasons alone one time probably would not have been enough. Clouding (or threat thatof) is the only way in which characters like yours can in any way be kept in line. And this is nothing but the consequence of the actions of the said characters, as I wouldn't really have a character attacked ingame on extremely light grounds.

[abcfantasy]

I think Dantagon should not be afraid to fight, IC or OOC.

It can be natural that the char may be a little afraid to fight (we don't want more fearless people) but he still would be fight if necessary otherwise he'll try to avoid fights. OOC-ly he might be afraid too, because he knows that it's almost a 100% clouding since people tend to PG more. But that shouldn't stop him from playing Dantagon.

It takes courage to play a courageous character

Not only courage. It takes LOTS of time to train your char.

To kill Dain...

What? Kill? I highly doubt it. Clouded? Maybe, but what then? He'll most likely come for you and cloud you independently so why attack in the first place?

Most people don't care if you back away, they will just follow you and kill you

Indeed and that's quite infuriating.

@Konrad: It's natural that we hate being clouded. 2 or 3 skillpoints can mean hours and hours of training. And no, if you're afraid of being clouded, that shouldn't stop you from playing a warrior or something of the like. Actually, I think players -should- be afraid of clouding. If not, they'll probably be playing a fearless char . The problem is that clouding can be avoided at times, unneccessary or a bit extra.

General rule is not only don't be rude, but play to provide fun (not for just your own fun).

[Konrad Knox]

I guess fear is not the problem then. Fearless is something else.
Well, i mean, if you're being the instigator, it's better to be fearless and get clouded quietly than to be rude, get clouded, and then complain.

..in any event, as a product of skimming this thread, i am convinced further in my decision to not cloud people unless absolutely necessary for survival, aka they keep attacking you.

[Korm Kormsen]

so now , after the "goodies" nearly all gave up, because the "baddies" succeed to missinterpret everything written, it is the "baddies" time, to unearth the arguments they did not recognize before, to use them against the "goodies".
really nice.

And this is nothing but the consequence of the actions of the said characters, as I wouldn't really have a character attacked ingame on extremely light grounds.

i even believe you, that YOU personally would not.
but YOU alone would not be that much annoying, to make such a long thread.
it is not "you" singular, but "you" plural, people are descontent with.

may i remind us all of the openig statement of this thread?

You may have noticed various small complaints in the forums about the quality of Role Play(in general) in Illarion. I think that this happens to be quite the problem. People start to play other RP games when they could be in Illarion because of this. Others just quit. I don't know if we need to get stricter with the RP rules or what, but something certainly needs to change.

how right Lrmy was...
and what a pity, that we all see the failures of everybody, but those of number one....

[Greisling]

To kill Dain...

What? Kill? I highly doubt it. Clouded? Maybe, but what then? He'll most likely come for you and cloud you independently so why attack in the first place?

I think this is a good example to show that IG behaviour and actions imperatively must be influenced by OOC ways of thinking:
Since some people here state that any IG action will have an IG reaction, completely based on IC way of thinking, this sheer IC-thinking would lead to a collapse ultimatvly. Why?

Well, since there is no rule for how to play getting clouded, people tend to play if they just have been knocked out... and thus will take revenge next time. The logical IG-consequence would be that the then clouded character would take revenge on his own again... re-revenge -- rererevenge.. etc.

So, basically this does not happen IG. Why?
Because everyone knows that the stronger char would win in the end anyway.
Because nobody likes to die that often.
Becasue someone of the two will have a moment when he think OOC about it: It'll be an endless circle. So he stops.


So, when someone says next time: I completly act IC - forget about it; it is nonsense. There always is a certain level of OOC influence. And this influence is needed that the game is working well.
It is just the question: How much OOC-thoughts should be integrated to allow a balanced game and to allow everyone having fun?

[abcfantasy]

A bit off-topic but...

Can we establish what clouding means in IG terms?

- Heavily injured / Knocked out?
- Literally killed but sent back by the Gods? (and if so, would they send you back heavily injured?)
- Possibility of both / Player's decision?

[Korm Kormsen]

clearly it should be just knocked out.

or the gods must be crazy.
what kind of gods would revive every shithead a couple of times??

[Avalyon el'Hattarr]

LMAO.. good one Korm
Well, in my opinion, clouding is up to the player.. If he chooses perma death then it's oviously a kill, if not, then it's K.O and badly wounded.

[Pellandria]

@Edward: You completly failed my post, I barely get in contact with the temple anyway, but all meetings untill now turned out to be downright unpleasent, I still wait for explanations of using technical flaws and ooc information against other player, which suffered from the temple or "your group", but I don't even care anymore, there is much bullshit on either side and its driving people away, it just seems like the major part of baddies don't care if the people simply leave because of their actions, because they still have "themselfs to play with".

Still I'm always guessing how you get pictures of the way my char acts, we played like.. 5 hours in total ever together, that gives you an indeep view of my char... really.

[Juliana D'cheyne]

To kill Dain...

What? Kill? I highly doubt it. Clouded? Maybe, but what then? He'll most likely come for you and cloud you independently so why attack in the first place?

So, when someone says next time: I completly act IC - forget about it; it is nonsense. There always is a certain level of OOC influence. And this influence is needed that the game is working well.
It is just the question: How much OOC-thoughts should be integrated to allow a balanced game and to allow everyone having fun?

Possibly... but much later after healing.. since one of my chars has sewn up before . As far as ooc influence, I don't agree. Chars should follow their background, how their "makeup" is. If mine had ooc influence, they would all be the same. Don't expect my "nice" chars, to be anything like my shady!

As far as "remembering" the clouding/knock out/whatever PO's consider....my chars normally do, and why not? The last one clouded even changed her name.

Well, in my opinion, clouding is up to the player..

I fully agree.

Most people don't care if you back away, they will just follow you and kill you

I would highly recommend that if someone backs off, not to follow... Kaila was followed once.. backed off twice and still followed... this IMO can cause hard feelings oog....and she never went back to claim her jewelry as a consequence. As a PO, I decided I did not want to RP any more conflict with the char. My chars will let whoever back away without following, the only time they have continued to fight, is when the char backs away... then comes back.

[Miklorius]

Well, in my opinion, clouding is up to the player.. If he chooses perma death then it's oviously a kill, if not, then it's K.O and badly wounded.

"Up to the player" won't work if it comes to big battles. And you also give your interpretation how you see clouding/ghostung. I really hope that the staff will give official, logical guidelines.

See also the Illapedia about Death!

I highly doubt that there are a lot players who can play their characters without any player/OOC knowledge influence (maybe when you are not much active in the community)!
Also the most characters will think about their doings (except some mad guys etc. ), but it seems to me that some criticized "baddie" players here simply argue: "My character is somehow 'evil', so any 'evil' actions ist good RP." Well, that's obviously crap.
And even when a certain "evil" action can be fitting to your character, you should think OOC, if this action is good for the game! There is usually not always only one possible action for characters.
As soon as an action initialized by some players/characters affects/harm etc. a wider group of other characters, it is a "storyline"/"quest" or similar and should be more or less fun for everyone.

[Nitram]

Just to take one thing out of the discussion.

Some of you tend to cry for a KO System.

Something like this won't be in the game for the next years. There are no plans to do this and not the man power to do this. We have no graphics for it and nothing in the server or the client supports this even slightly.

So do not even think about this as a solution. If you take this in, the situation you want to solve with it will not change for years.

Nitram

[Lrmy]

Err, why do people care about getting clouded? You loose items and skills. That's it. Both can be gotten back with some work. Cloudings also make it so that you take a bit longer to reach max level. I personally don't care at all OOC if I get clouded by some one that I pissed off or by a monster. I think the more you care about getting clouded, the more you are attached to items and skills. If you have high skills, you know how to get them back. If you have low ones, they are easy to gain back. Fighting is a LARGE aspect of the game. If you don't want to train a "good" knight then you will likely get killed by an "evil" one. Knights are fighters and not much else.

[abcfantasy]

If people do not care about getting clouded, then something must be done to make the consequences worse so that people will care. People 'must' care if their chars get clouded.

Otherwise no one will be careful, no one will fear death (as in clouding), everyone will simply attack anytime etc etc...

And not everyone 'easily' gets items or skills. Players can actually work hard to acquire some item or some level of skill. You can't simply classify them in two: one who gains high skills easily and the other who are just low skilled chars.

[Lrmy]

If people do not care about getting clouded, then something must be done to make the consequences worse so that people will care. People 'must' care if their chars get clouded.

Otherwise no one will be careful, no one will fear death (as in clouding), everyone will simply attack anytime etc etc...

And not everyone 'easily' gets items or skills. Players can actually work hard to acquire some item or some level of skill. You can't simply classify them in two: one who gains high skills easily and the other who are just low skilled chars.

I said with high skills, you KNOW how to gain them, not that you can easily. I think ALL items should drop when you die in addition to the skill loss we have.

[Pellandria]

Yeah make it even worser than it is, not all players get their egos up and want to pg all day, skill loose and item loose, as itis now, is crap allready, making it even worser just drives more people away.

[Ambrosine]

Talk about adding insult to injury...

I rue the day any character has to streak from the cross to their depot with naught but an... well, I guess we don't have oak leaves in Illarion do we?