Problem in The Community

[Avalyon el'Hattarr]

I was so pissed after reading the last post that's i've written at least 1 page of swearing. Now that I am a bit calmer, I've deleted what've i've wrote and I'll only answer this:

FOIG!


((in case you don't know what it stands for - Find Out In Game))

P.S: tellig our plans doesn't quite help us in any way, does it?

[Pellandria]

No, thats your Problem avalyon, instead of listening to reasonable critic you just block, guess you would just walk up to greislings char now and kill him, just because you can, everything that he wrote is, atleast in my opinion and my viewpoint, absolutly right and could be signed, these are the exact problems thattrouble player without deep "insight" into your "plans".

[Gwendolin Cad'ell]

I don't think that there is anything about Greislings post to be "pissed about". He (or she?) wrote in a very considerate manner that didn't offend, insult or accused anyone or anything. He very calmly and nicely phrased made summary of what he thinks that should be discussed.

Having said that, I think you got him a bit wrong, Avalyon. I don't think that Greisling expect you or anyone else of 'the group' to explain what is going on ingame. I think the mainreason for his post was for 'the group' to have an insight into what players who are not a part of this group, are feeling and thinking concerning them. And that it should be something to think and contemplate about.

[Korm Kormsen]

a whole thread of two different reasonings, that don't touch each other really.

but, the main problem is so simple:

yes, this game needs evil chars.
what this game does not need are evil POs.

if some would think about this, maybe we would have no problems.

[Avalyon el'Hattarr]

No..
IG is IG, OOC is OOC.
end
thank you.

[Achae Eanstray]

is not part of the "group" and still has no objection...... again would like not to be grouped into something of US or THEM in an ooc thread. However, knowing the PO's of most of the posters, I like every one. IMO Greisling's post is considerate, if not a little one sided.

Is the main problem here that people are upset some chars tend to RP together (there are a lot more groups that do this also).... that there's are ghosted in the RP (this again wouldn't be so bad without the game mechanics of skill loss).... or that they want NO interruption to their own RP?

yes, this game needs evil chars.
what this game does not need are evil POs.

Hmm...a little over the edge?

Has any PO that objected to the RP of any other just said ooc ig that they would prefer not to RP this?

[Mr. Cromwell]

Allow me to explain the situation a little.

Let us make a completely hypothetical scenario here:

Case prologue:

Firstly, barring a ruler who is completely respected and liked by everyone everywhere, or divinely powerful by his/her own right.. any ruler needs a powerbase to rely on. This is the same with the hypothetical prince Deadward.

Let us say, that there are two groups in the world whom the 'prince' can base his government on.
There are the 'Nobles', powerful individual characters in loose decentralized groups (who may or may not cooperate with eachother and have enemies, but this is out of the Prince's control) who will be guaranteed to cause problems unless the government cooperates with them. (Bad guys)
Then there are the 'Peasants', who are prone to rebelling when the prince does something they don't like, but are not initially hostile with the government. (Good guys)
The interests of these groups are different and they tend to have problems with eachother, thus combining the two will be difficult. The prince doesn't have a moral reason to side with either, as the groups in this point are just tools for him to get what he wants.

Now, Prince Deadward wants to rule as a dictator, and the peasants disagree vehemently while the Nobles are supportive with it. Thus, he cannot logically cannot base his power on the peasants but will have to seek support of the nobles. The nobles decide to support him, because his rule is directly beneficial for them as well. So, the Prince has kind of a symbiotic relationship with the nobles. You'll scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. However, he cannot just 'command' all the members of the different noble-groups around on a regular basis. So, this means that he doesn't control the power of the nobles most of the time, but he can count on their support when he really needs it, thus the he is weak while having to rely on the nobles, at the same time being extremely strong because he will be hard for the peasants to remove from the power (which is the primary concern for the prince).

Political problems:

Without this problem (or the good guys being a little less completely worthless assistance ), the prince would not have had to rely so intensively on the nobles and permanently include them in the government. The prince (and the PO) perceive the foreign ownership for ~50%+ of the town buildings as a problem for the town. The Principality of Midget-town, which already owns two large buildings in the town makes a claim for the third one. The Governor also wishes to build some rentable houses (which have been paid for now) and knows that the tavern-rooms + the seahorse rooms will be enough to saturate the need for such housing completely. Thus he decides to risk losing everything in the start and going down with a blaze of glory if he loses when refusing the demands of the dwarves, which would compromise his plans. He decides to go both to the bad guys, and the good guys, asking for support.

When the traditional allies of the town (let us call them the Brotherhood of the Brown Tulip) are not willing to back the government (but rather, are flip-flopping to the max) against the demands made by the Midgets, have an alliance with Midgetmountain and generally just refuse to choose sides, the governor is at dire straits.The good guys have some compulsive need to either 1.) Give in on the demands of the midgets 2.) Give in to the demands of the midgets and threaten Prince Deadward (who at this point has done nothing except become the dictator) 3.) Not to support the town, despite the fact that at this point the town is clearly not the agressor or done 'nothing' wrong.

The bad guys say "Don't worry, you can rely on us if the midgets, the brown tulip and the dorfmark all want to come". Thus the Prince decides to gamble and tell the midgets off. The bad guys are appointed to key places and receive government protection. The symbiosis between the Prince and the groups becomes uncancellable.

The governor has a master plan to pacify the town. He employs those who form his current powerbase and have* caused plenty of problems for the previous administrations of the town to work as guards. I would like to point out, that the effect of this has been, that there have been no raids on TB anymore. At first he tries to get the good characters involved with the guard as well (but since the good characters are constantly difficult primadonnas on principle, they cannot really be relied on in the same manner) but ultimately for various reasons (such as the lacking will to make constant concessions to appease the uber-good characters) the good characters throw in the towel and leave the guard. There still are (even at the moment) 'normal people' or 'good people' in the guard, but those aren't the difficult high profile ones. The only 'good' character** in the government is extraordinarily difficult and seeks to undermine the authority of the Prince from the day one, questions critical decisions publically and is just pain in the ass to work with. These all added together don't really encourage the hypothetical governor to really get any more of the 'good characters' in the government. The new guards require some looking after, though.

All the government-sanctioned (with orders from Deadward) violence has been extremely clandestine at least until now. All the attacks against the towns have been committed by individuals or members of the powerbase-groups without the sanction of Deadward. However, he cannot really *punish* the characters for their actions because of the symbiotic relationship he has with the groups, and because distancing himself from the groups would leave him at the mercy of the Holier-than-thou characters (a good chunk of whom have been against the Prince on principle from the start).

*Which seems to be the main problem here. The 'disturbances' have gone 'out of the pandora's box', meaning that those places which used to be safe when TB was the target of the 'brigands' no longer are safe and TB is actually, in the end, unusually safe***.

** The kind of "Holier-than-thou" -character. Some of the Government/Guard members are 'normals', with no real criminal or questionable interests.

***As for the 'killings of a lot of citizens'.. I've heard of one citizen being killed by the guards, for which a valid IG explanation was offered by the killer-guard. There actually is an interest for Deadward to protect the citizens, but if no-citizen makes even an anonymous report.. to anyone.. then there has not meen much attempt to solve this IG by the players of the violated characters.

Let me add, that the 'brigand guards' have ALL been played to the role as far as I am concerned. No-one of those who have been mentioned here has behaved with anything but utmost respect and apparent obedience towards the Governor, regardless of what they do when the governor is not looking. With William Elderberry and Roland Ross being the only characters ever to apply for the residency status, there was apparently no need perceived by the good players or characters to secure any rights for their characters, even though it was made clear that there 'will be no legal protection for outsiders'..

Another point of view
Well, since the PO of Cromwell was not able to play this game for some weeks, the rest of the Group was more or less left alone. So, perhaps they did what they liked to without considering a coherent storyline much? But perhaps there is a broad plan behind it? It is hard to know for sure for outsiders of that Group.

This would actually be closer to the truth. Since I wasn't there to implement my plan (and didn't share it much with the others), they were on their own (which was partially my fault as the player), however they did the attacks on their own, and it is not my business to question the motives or their playing style ooc.

While there 'is' a plan, but the reason why it has not been involved is because the peasants would have a problem with it, thus some kind of calmness and peace would be necessary before the wheels can begin to full turn and take the plan forward. The Seahorse was phase 1.

And the plan won't be revealed, just because of the small chance you wouldn't be able to topple prince Deadward after all.

[Nitram]

I can see the constandly increasing length of the posts that containt all in all absolutly useless things everyone could write in more or less one line.

The whole problems are not caused by a IG Situation. The problems cause the IG Situation. So let the IG stuff IG and handle all that things IG.

The ooc problem is still that most players work for their own fun and not for the general fun in the game.

Discuss how to solve that, if you want to discuss anything. Everything else leads straight into nothing.

Nitram

[Miklorius]

@Greisling: Nuff said and well written.

@Cromwell: Less text and more direct would be better. Again: Storylines which nobody can understand are more or less doomed to fail.

The ooc problem is still that most players work for their own fun and not for the general fun in the game.

Yes! That's my and some other's opinion, too. A pity that some players do not understand it... A big quest or story must be fun for everyone who is forced to participate.

@Silas: Cold war? You mean because of the IG absence of Cromwell and yourself?

[Llama]

@Silas: Cold war? You mean because of the IG absence of Cromwell and yourself?

I can vouch that I saw them both logged in today...

[Mr. Cromwell]

It's a plan. Not a quest or storyline itself. I don't know where the idea comes from, but I don't consider it necessary for me to know everything at all times, so I do not consider it necessary for you either. Hell, I'm fairly certain that there are some people here making such comments who fail to inform me about storylines and quests which concern my character directly. Why should it be important for me to inform everyone of the plan, even the vast majority who are not directly involved with the events themselves?

It's a plan of one character to gain X by doing something. I don't demand to be informed of the plans of Lennier and Gryphius or William Elderberry, so why should I be in a different position in that respect? These are plans of an individual character.

If you want to understand them; FIND IT OUT INGAME. (Of course, I am not going to say it was easy to do that IG, especially for some whiny Brown Tulip knight )

As for the rest of the post, it was a simply explanation of WHY things currently are the way they are (after being blamed for being inconsistent), though I was rather certain that such explanation would not be appriciated. Right I was.

[Juliana]

No..
IG is IG, OOC is OOC.
end
thank you.

Very nice. So chars aren't played by players....
As long as you play a game, you'll always have OOC-influence. Good players can minimize the influence on their chars, but the average influenced by OOC-moods, -knowledge, whatever.
Take 'being clouded' as an example. In RL it means death. Something only a real small group of people considers in RL. But what happens if your char gets clouded? You losse some skills, perhaps some items. There's no real consequence and a PO knows that. So you just keep on doing what you did, perhaps a bit more cautiously than before.

With that in mind I can understand the need of this thread. I had some lengthy discussions about this theme at the RL-meeting as well. A fair indicator that POs are OOC-concerned about the IG-situation as such. I don't really believe that this thread is for solving the IG-situation but more for the benefit of understanding each other better, so that you can act a bit better.

So I thank poth Cromwell and Greisling for their lengthy posts. It clears up everything at least a bit. Normally short and direct answers only gibe room for much misinterpreting as has happended to often yet.

Thanks for reading

[Lrmy]

@Greisling

1. Who is "the temple"/"the government"/"the evils"?

It doesn't matter what your character thinks when it comes to OOC(like this thread). Separate the two.


2. Abuse of IG power

You don't know why the attacks happened in game? And you STILL would complain OOC? Whoa...

I will repeat what I have said.

WHAT IS THE STINKIN' PROBLEM?

There are no mass killings. Yes I will cloud you with no thought if you don't listen when my character tells you to leave after you are at sword-point. Your RP sucked unless you REALLY wanted to be clouded.

We made an in game plot that we don't want to let you know(Gasp!). I think the temple members(POs) have been clouded more than any of you that posted against the temple in any way ever have.

I think the people that have a problem with the temple thing are mixing IC and OOC feelings. Damn shame.

[abcfantasy]

No matter how angry you might be, can you people not be aggressive and keep your tone light and clean? Aggressive tones degrade PO relations. I hope you can at least understand that (many need to).

Thank you. (that was sincere, not sarcastic by any means)

[Julius]

Your attitude towards everyone is something that I choose not to read. You act as though you are better and your rp is borderline mediocre ( You can say the same about me at points, sure). You are walking a narrow line, fussing with gms, clouding people, and being a nuisance on the boards. Before you get banned, I suggest you take a step back, look at yourself in the mirror and re adjust your thinking a bit. It will help you in the end, aye?

Now, it is not crappy rp for someone not to move at sword point. Especially if this person is a noob ( Hey (Insert New Player's first character name here) move or I'll stick you! And then slashing is basically a form of #me pking.) You are so quick in game to #me unsheaths a blade and me slashes that I even when I do want to find your character that I dread it for the game to you isn't about rp, it seems, but more about how you can be the best at fighting or gathering the best equipment. Hopefully, Noradur is able to collect enough information to give you enough time to think about these aforementioned things (I.E. Banned).

[Magdha Tiefenerz]

Yes I will cloud you with no thought if you don't listen when my character tells you to leave after you are at sword-point. Your RP sucked unless you REALLY wanted to be clouded.

This is what I call forced roleplay.

[Llama]

*sigh*

Some rules we could try to live by?

1. Don't criticise other players
2. Say nice things about other players
3. If you don't lyke something, suggest very nicely for a change, but remember that its a suggestion not a "Do it or i'll whine"
4. You are not any better then anyone, nobody is below you, so be nice to everyone
5. Remember that the person at the other end of an account is a human too
6. If someone PKs you, !gm and leave it at that
7. Seriously, everyone needs some hugs
8. Have a nice day everyone

[AlexRose]

Yes I will cloud you with no thought if you don't listen when my character tells you to leave after you are at sword-point. Your RP sucked unless you REALLY wanted to be clouded.

This is what I call forced roleplay.

If I've understood this situation correctly, he could've just said #me quickly slashes the sword at the man's [insert part of body which would be a fatal injury], to which the other person would've probably just gone: #me quickly dodges. Or such things, when this seems highly unlikely when at swordpoint. If you give someone the opportunity to get out of a situation, that is not forced rp. He could've just left the room and he would've been fine, but to tell someone with a sword at your throat/heart/wherever "no I won't do what you say" who is obviously not joking and evidently a powerful person, you don't just ignore him, do you? And this is why PKs happen sometimes: because people want to do what they like without consequences, which they then follow up with a flame on the forum, and it's frankly rather annoying.

[Azuros]

Yes I will cloud you with no thought if you don't listen when my character tells you to leave after you are at sword-point. Your RP sucked unless you REALLY wanted to be clouded.

This is what I call forced roleplay.

If I've understood this situation correctly, he could've just said #me quickly slashes the sword at the man's [insert part of body which would be a fatal injury], to which the other person would've probably just gone: #me quickly dodges. Or such things, when this seems highly unlikely when at swordpoint. If you give someone the opportunity to get out of a situation, that is not forced rp. He could've just left the room and he would've been fine, but to tell someone with a sword at your throat/heart/wherever "no I won't do what you say" who is obviously not joking and evidently a powerful person, you don't just ignore him, do you? And this is why PKs happen sometimes: because people want to do what they like without consequences, which they then follow up with a flame on the forum, and it's frankly rather annoying.

Alex, I believe that if you put someone in a situation in which they have to roleplay a certain way or they get clouded would be considered force roleplay.

[Mr. Cromwell]

Yes I will cloud you with no thought if you don't listen when my character tells you to leave after you are at sword-point. Your RP sucked unless you REALLY wanted to be clouded.

This is what I call forced roleplay.

..
..
..

Just how on earth is that forced roleplay?

You have a choice to flee, and he uses the technical side on you. Which is perfectly fine and dandy when it is done in the fair manner (i.e, with a reason). It's NOT forced even if you as player were not fine with the fact that your character is clouded. If you bring it on you with the behaviour of your character, then tough luck. What is with this constant carebearism and 'don't disturb my circles' -kind of thinking? When you are acting with others, accept that there is a risk of consequences for the actions.

We should focus a little less on such bloody rules-lawyering. If you don't want your character to be clouded, act accordingly with him too. It's a two way street. Unfair, non-rp'ly justified cloudings should be done with, but when there is an rp-reason, then there is no way it's forced anything. Sorry, but that's how it is.

Seriously guys and girls, bad actions without RP justification are one thing, but this is not it. Move along.

@Azuros
So, each time the guard says "Stop that and surrender or die, you baby-eating, demon-worshipping scum!" They are committing an act of forced roleplay?

..

[Azuros]

@Azuros
So, each time the guard says "Stop that and surrender or die, you baby-eating, demon-worshipping scum!" They are committing an act of forced roleplay?

..

If he is pointing a weapon directly at said person with his finger over the ctrl button, ready to strike, then yes, yes it is.

[Juliana D'cheyne]

noob orc: Meh no lik human
Juliana: #me looks up from her depot with eyebrows raised
noob orc: Yu need to leave human
noob orc: #me pulls a sword
Juliana" #me grins "You might want to rethink that" She wears Salk armor and has two serinjah in their sheaths she doesn't bother to pull out. When looking closely you may see some dried blood on her armor as if she has been fighting.
noob orc: #me leaves

noob orc: Meh no lik elves
Kaila: #me quickly looks up from her depot at the orc
noob orc: Yu need to leave elfess
noob orc: #me pulls a sword
Kaila: #me quickly takes a step back from the orc, even though an elfess her appearance is fairly weak. She carries a mage staff and wears leather armor.
noob orc: #me takes another step closer to her
Kaila: #me turns and quickly leaves the building, when outside she finally takes a deep breath her legs shaking before mumbling to herself about rude orcs and walking away.

[Mr. Cromwell]

*shakes the head*

In the end, that makes absolutely no difference. The day someone gets banned or punished for such behaviour is the day I go on a killing spree ingame and leave the game for good. (Okay, maybe not.. but the day I will send a anger-oozing private messages to all of the members of the staff)

This is no "Rules-lawyering 101 game" where the position of your fingers on the keyboard means a squat. This is a roleplaying game, and thus characters play a certain role and interacting may have the appropriate consequences for those involved (be that perma-death, dancing, drinking, fucking.. all the same). Sometimes you 'fail' with interaction, and it 'ought to' have negative consequences (regardless of the player opinion). It doesn't matter whether or not the mage has a finger pointed at you or not when he threatens to kills you (because that is extremely trivial, the threat is still there and that is ALL that matters).

Forced RP is essentially an emote to which cannot be avoided or responded to (you cannot cause permanent, or otherwise roleplayed harm or action on/to the character without my explicit permission/cooperation with a #me). NOTHING more. I can, however.. respond with the engine to any situation where possible (fighting), as long it is justifiable with roleplay motives and reasons. Why do you think that the engine is there to begin with? Whether the 'kill' is a 'clean one', is completely different thing and relates to its justifiability under the roleplay itself.

If you don't want your character to be killed, use the back door and walk out of the town. Otherwise accept the consequences of the refusal.

Accept the consequences of the actions of your characters in the game and stop being so irresponsible with the character actions as players. There is no reason to expect some magical rules to bail your character out each time you mess with some other character. When you don't want your character to risk clouding, you need to think about what went wrong on the way you got the sword pointed at you.

I've pointed the sword at people and threatened to attack them, and have continued to attacked them as threatened (on both sides of the fence). Rest assured, I will continue to do so in the future (nor will I bitch when you do it to me, as long as you try not to do it mid-sentence). What amazes me, that this has been an absolutely non-issue for everyone I've met ingame in such situations.

[Drathe]

Would any and all of this be such an issue if there was a KO system in place? A buffer between character death (clouding) and loss of skills? Not a question for dissucssion here just food for thought in this context.

[abcfantasy]

I doubt something technical can really solve this whole thing. It's more from the players' side. People are very different, their mentality/perception/opinions/views are too. What one person thinks is right and best may be the opposite for another.

I think we just have to adapt at how things are IG and somehow not degrade any player relations with things we do not like. *Shrugs*

[Mr. Cromwell]

Possibly, if the stress and frustration come from the loss of skills and items. If the stress and frustration stem from the fact that these players have to subject the characters to suffer the consequences of their actions in the hands of other characters with or without their personal acceptance, then no.

[Vern Kron]

Or they have to suffer due to other characters actions, which is often times the case.

[Noradur]

Sry that i need to burst into your flame war but
I am sick of interpretations of every RP rule we have (Not pointing a finger at anyone)

Keyword: Forced RP

Pointing a sword tip at someone and demand him to leave
IS a valid RP action.

However, we cannot tell you more and more often:
This game is to be played with each other and not against each other.

If you point your sword tip at him not have your ctrl and mouse button prepared, is crap rp. But if you give the others

1. the chance to react
2. the chance to roleplay his way out.

standing there counting off the seconds he has time to leave is force RP. Not because you force him to react a way, But you dont give him not enough time to react.

Maybe he has some special action with good roleplay in mind but needs to figure a way to express it first, or simply is a slow typer.

Please, keep those small things in ind, cause those are destroying the atmosphair.

[Lrmy]

Sry that i need to burst into your flame war but
I am sick of interpretations of every RP rule we have (Not pointing a finger at anyone)

Keyword: Forced RP

Pointing a sword tip at someone and demand him to leave
IS a valid RP action.

However, we cannot tell you more and more often:
This game is to be played with each other and not against each other.

If you point your sword tip at him not have your ctrl and mouse button prepared, is crap rp. But if you give the others

1. the chance to react
2. the chance to roleplay his way out.

standing there counting off the seconds he has time to leave is force RP. Not because you force him to react a way, But you dont give him not enough time to react.

Maybe he has some special action with good roleplay in mind but needs to figure a way to express it first, or simply is a slow typer.

Please, keep those small things in ind, cause those are destroying the atmosphair.

First off, I count down from 5 normally, I give them 20 seconds during this. I also let them talk if they please. There is a war-like atmosphere in game, there will be more hostility because of it. The chance to RP their way out is the door. A very fast and assured choice. If the choice is denied and then the person that denies it pokes fun at the man with the sword they forced the one with the sword to take action.

Also, I am sick of players going #me suddenly pulls out a fryingpan and hits you in the head with it before escaping. I have even been lied to OOC in order to have a character escape. I am really thinking of not letting people run away anymore(Which I do almost all the time). When they do...they get their friends and come back and strike my character. The last problem with a delayed attack happens all to often. You wait while they try and RP/weasel their way out of the situation then BAM! their friends are all around the screen. Makes more sense to cloud them sometimes from my *cough* "Point of View".

[Fianna Heneghan]

If you give someone the opportunity to get out of a situation, that is not forced rp. He could've just left the room and he would've been fine, but to tell someone with a sword at your throat/heart/wherever "no I won't do what you say" who is obviously not joking and evidently a powerful person, you don't just ignore him, do you? And this is why PKs happen sometimes: because people want to do what they like without consequences, which they then follow up with a flame on the forum, and it's frankly rather annoying.

I totally 100% agree with this. I never thought that would happen.

If you play a weak character with a big mouth, you should expect a little bit of mistreatment from stronger, moodier characters.

If you are having a specific problem that seems to be coming from a particular PO, then share the details and fix it. Put up or shut up.