Problem in The Community

[Retlak]

To stop children like some previous posters crying.

[Fianna Heneghan]

frankly, what disturbs me most, at being clouded after minimum RP, is not the loss of items or skills, but the rape-like feeling.

I would like to shine a light on this one statement. I think if any players are feeling this way it deserves a closer look. I am wondering if there was any pattern that could be addressed with particular players directly by the GMs. If it is one or two players creating this feeling perhaps it would be simpler to address them personally rather than creating a lot of changes to the game and how it is played.

@Korm: Any details?

[Mr. Cromwell]

@Taliss
Don't ask me.

I'm trying to keep the babies from crying.

Look: When people are unhappy enough to blame me personally for half of the stuff that has happened in the game ever (while at the same time blaming me for not doing enough), I guess I'm doing something wrong. As unlikely as it sounds.

I'm ready to deal with the IC consequences, but people are not ready to deal with what is going on IC right now (as you may see from some of the enlightened replies here). Right now however, I'm more than indifferent to the IC consequences (quest or otherwise) because I cannot be arsed to give a damn about the town at the moment (after the recent bitchfest).

The point of the government was not to grief any player. With me being the overly caring and nice guy that I am (seriously, why I care for the opinions of some of the numbskulls here is beyond me sometimes) I ask the players of the guards to consider leaving certain groups alone, because they are obviously really upset by it and don't want their sim-citying disturbed. Let me stress it one more time. I want everyone to have fun with the game. Trollsbane being the central place it is, I guess I can try and cut some of the players a little slack (not that they would have any sympathy for the "bad guys, central place" argument, due being the incoherent and unfair hypocrites themselves).

I can't control what the guard-players do, so it's out of my hands. If some people don't start registering their characters to stay out of trouble soon, then it's just a proof that they were not really concerned with these things to begin with, but it's something personal.

Either way, I'm tired of listening to that crap, so I did what I did. If that was the best choice, I'm not really sure. If I even want to keep on trying to play the governor, I'm not that sure either.

I better sleep over that.

[Dantagon Marescot]

I understand that you are trying to make it so people aren't offending by the things going on ig. But understand that it has just gone on to long. In no way am I going to attack you OOC about anything, just know that this shouldn't stop the ig happenings. So what happens ig is happening and probably gonna continue to happen. Then again, I don't nessicarilly view my self as bitching on the boards about this. Just note that however this plays out ig I want it to be fair to both sides OOCly.

[Fianna Heneghan]

Your gonna get yer ass whipped like creme topping.

End.

Thank you. That's very helpful.

[Richter Brown]

I tried to find a IG solution - but it seems that really nobody wants that.
Is everybody waiting for a big GM clash on the "evil" chars?
Cromwell wasnt in game a long time. Lets see if he can handle the situation...
I cant understand why one of the most "evil" chars in game is your captain of the guard. The same with "Deuce".
But I am fine with this. Its an IG matter.
And i ask myself why the comunity isnt able to deal with it. Its a great situstion for RP. The governments have to act. But what are they doing? Nothing?
So, probably we (all players) are unable to solute the IG situation without some GM help.
Sad but true...

[Mr. Cromwell]

I tried to find a IG solution - but it seems that really nobody wants that.
Is everybody waiting for a big GM clash on the "evil" chars?
Cromwell wasnt in game a long time. Lets see if he can handle the situation...
I cant understand why one of the most "evil" chars in game is your captain of the guard. The same with "Deuce".
But I am fine with this. Its an IG matter.
And i ask myself why the comunity isnt able to deal with it. Its a great situstion for RP. The governments have to act. But what are they doing? Nothing?
So, probably we (all players) are unable to solute the IG situation without some GM help.
Sad but true...

You don't need to understand it. However, I can assure you that it has very logical RP-reason and that it actually is the good guys fault, at least partially.

I explained the situation to Korm in detail (which I will not do to the lot of you), and if you don't believe that there actually is a reason for it, you can ask him whether or not the logic exists. He seemed to 'see' the logic once I enlightened him a little bit.

[Korm Kormsen]

yes, as much as my char hates the situation, i as player see, that PO cromwell is right. his char was acting consequently.

korm

(i did not want to write anymore in this thread, but for this statement i make an exception)

[Greisling]

Cromwell, with comments like beneath you prove that you have not understood yet the main points already stated more than once in this topic.

Why are we "bitching"- though, for keeping a more neutral tongue: why are we concerned about the IG situation? Well, it has been said already more than twice. Try to read it and try to understand.

However, your action of posting a more or less aggressive and arrogant posting to your people you might call friends of government, you did a step into the right direction. Thanks for that.
However, still I am missing any real understanding from you why there are at least double amount of POs not happy with the current situation as your "government & friends" consists of.

Anyway, let us cope with the situation as it is. It was forseen many weeks before, though, that someting like this is gonna to happen. So, let us see how it'll continue...


btw... Power means responsibility, Cromwell, both, IC and OOC. I am happy that you seem to be aware of that at least sometimes.

@Taliss
Don't ask me.

I'm trying to keep the babies from crying.

Look: When people are unhappy enough to blame me personally for half of the stuff that has happened in the game ever (while at the same time blaming me for not doing enough), I guess I'm doing something wrong. As unlikely as it sounds.

We have the power now, so I guess we can be a bit more considerate than the good guys when they are at it.

You don't need to understand it. However, I can assure you that it has very logical RP-reason and that it actually is the good guys fault, at least partially.

[Alytys Lamar]

.... and I'm so tired to read always the same

[Greisling]

...the sadder is the fact that people still do not show any will of trying to understand the "opposites'" point of view.

[Alytys Lamar]

@Greisling ... to chew again and again and again through the same thing change nothing... accept it or forget it.

my last words on this thread

[Mr. Cromwell]

...the sadder is the fact that people still do not show any will of trying to understand the "opposites'" point of view.

And even sadder when people have the guts to say stuff like that on a straight face, without looking at the mirror.

at least double amount of POs not happy with the current situation as your "government & friends" consists of.

Twice as vocal, possibly. Claiming anything else is just make-believe.

The saddest thing however are long-time players who feel the need to create a new account when participating in discussions such as this.

And yes, let's just deal with the situation as it is.
Like I have been saying from the start.

[Miklorius]

Doing nothing and declare that as "fitting to the character" may be RP, but it is obviously not enough for many players, because such IG background/story/quest is not visible for the most people (and it is like that for months now).

IMO, for the most people Trolls's Bane under your government is neither a ruled/governed town nor anarchy nor a "evil" dicatorship. It's nothing but the base from were the "bad guys" in your town guard start making trouble elsewhere - well done...

PS: It is the fault of us "good guys" that it seems impossible for us to act together or act at all.

PPS: Creating a new account for "such" discussions can be okay for preventing biased reactions.

[Mr. Cromwell]

Doing nothing and declare that as "fitting to the character" may be RP, but it is obviously not enough for many players, because such IG background/story/quest is not visible for the most people (and it is like that for months now).

I was out of the game for approximately month, simply because I have had a busy and stressful life. I'm not going to start apologising you guys for that, but it's true that I should have been around more. I'm the first one to admit that, but it was not possible (kein zeit, kein lust).

IMO, for the most people Trolls's Bane under your government is neither a ruled/governed town nor anarchy nor a "evil" dicatorship. It's nothing but the base from were the "bad guys" in your town guard start making trouble elsewhere - well done...

Bad guys in my townguard (who cause trouble elsewhere) would probably be.. dain? Dominic fisher is not in the guard, and Elderberry has not been causing as much troubles when in the guard than before he was in the guard.

PS: It is the fault of us "good guys" that it seems impossible for us to act together or act at all.

Don't worry, that's probably my fault too somehow.

[Dantagon Marescot]

Guard:
Dain
Deuce
William Elderberry (trouble or no trouble to you, he causes it in his own way).

People they associate with:
Dominic
Avalyon
Temple members (Black Stone Cult, ie evil)
Caelum (people who attacked Bane last time)
Criminals

Why we don't like them:
We replaced a town guard with organized crime and then said that the crime rate went down. It may have, but it is only because the criminals know that criminals are in charge and were told off by Dain.

Why the good guys are bitching:
Because they have realized this and are not happy. Therefore they bitch, find an ig solution instead of complaining on the boards, and wa la, problem fixed so long people play fair and avoid using OOC knowledge for the problem.

What we should do now:
Stop bitching at each other and find a solution ig. NOW!

[Miklorius]

I was out of the game for approximately month, simply because I have had a busy and stressful life. (...)

Yeah, I know, RL comes first. Although as an important IG person it would be still your duty to find active deputy for downtimes (your new chancelor is as inactive as you are/were). And there were no governmental action in TB since around 2 months .

Bad guys in my townguard (who cause trouble elsewhere) would probably be.. dain? Dominic fisher is not in the guard, and Alex Rose has not been causing as much troubles when in the guard than before he was in the guard.

Nitpicking won't dissolve the argument.

But now let's see how the actual, obviously non-satisfying for a group of player situation will develop IG. If it still sucks in a few weeks, we can dis you again .

[AlexRose]

"His own way". i.e. "I don't like him".

[abcfantasy]

No.

William is suspected by many that he was involved in Siltaris' murder, and he has become arrogant and big-headed. He's also a friend of other criminals. That is what makes him "part of the group".

[Greisling]

Some discussions are long, some are difficult. Some are needless, some are straight forward.

At the end of this discussion I have mixed feelings:
On the one hand I think it was necessary to talk about the situation and to tell the truth how POs actually are feeling about it. I hope it will influence some actions of some Chars in game in a positive way so everyone has more fun.
On the other hand this discussion really made people upset. Well, this is natural in a deep discussion, in particular for Illarionite-discussions.

I truely hope things will work out fine in game. Even when I must admit I have little hope for that for various reasons... It might sound quite pessimistic, but I'll state a forcast any way: In at least 4 weeks we'll meet here again for a much harder OOC-bashing round.
The only thing what could prevent it would be good roleplay and the will of players not to be the winner at any time in any case.


In the end I want to comment on a very last thing:
In the moment when people discuss about people and not about their arguments, any discussion is doomed. That is the reasons why I've created a new account.


See you in game!

[AlexRose]

No.

William is suspected by many that he was involved in Siltaris' murder, and he has become arrogant and big-headed. He's also a friend of other criminals. That is what makes him "part of the group".

Doesn't mean he makes trouble. And.. no, no he wasn't involved in Siltaris's murder.

[Vern Kron]

Then find a way to prove it.

So, I raised a lot of crap about this, but...I shouldn't have. I know more than most people do about the situation, (not alot more, but a little more) and most of my assumptions so far have been correct. Things are indeed bad in Troll's Bane, but solutions are being made. I have noticed that there are other ways to work, than first person. Basically... things are bad, but things are always bad before they improve to a level better than they were before. Maybe things were only bad for a split second, but that second was long enough for an action to take place to make things better. If things do not improve within the next (( month, to two months?)) than maybe the GM's should step in...and also, I promise you there has been GREAT roleplay from these events, and teaches roleplayers how to adapt. I think I learnt it well.

There is a need for change, so now we change.

[Avalyon el'Hattarr]

than maybe the GM's should step in...

The gm's have no right of interfearing in player guilds/plots/whatever.. They must be impartial

[Vern Kron]

I have no problem if they step in, even if it was against me, they are players, and they probably made the right decision...besides, I am tired of having a war torn island, and barely wanting to log on.

[Greisling]

The good thing with "impartial" is that one can solve an argue by actually intervene in an impartial way into IG situations.
Consider the GMs as your friend who wants to help to let anyone have fun.

[Nitram]

The gm's have no right of interfearing in player guilds/plots/whatever.. They must be impartial

And thats written where?

If the gms step in the player guilds/plots/whatever its only to save the fun in the game and make sure that all players have fun. Mainly in order to make the guilds/plots/whatever impartial and neutral so they don't cause more harm to the game

[Lrmy]

Guard:
Dain
Deuce
William Elderberry (trouble or no trouble to you, he causes it in his own way).

People they associate with:
Dominic
Avalyon
Temple members (Black Stone Cult, ie evil)
Caelum (people who attacked Bane last time)
Criminals

Why we don't like them:
We replaced a town guard with organized crime and then said that the crime rate went down. It may have, but it is only because the criminals know that criminals are in charge and were told off by Dain.

Why the good guys are bitching:
Because they have realized this and are not happy. Therefore they bitch, find an ig solution instead of complaining on the boards, and wa la, problem fixed so long people play fair and avoid using OOC knowledge for the problem.

What we should do now:
Stop bitching at each other and find a solution ig. NOW!

I don't understand this.. Above you named every "criminal" my character will ever speak to and not chase out of Bane. As far as the laws of Bane go, only Dain and Deuce are criminals on this list (breaking minor laws in the past).

Dominic and William are PART of Caelum and the two most active members. I think you put them on there twice to make your list look bigger.

There is no blackstone cult. Dain and Avalyon are the only ones in the temple on that list. Sure we associate with our guild. And DUHOY we associate with Caelum. They are not evil, they just have a different viewpoint than your character. They also were a helping factor in taking Troll's Bane from the "good" guys.

Organized crime? We are not robbing people. We are not killing lots of people. I understand your characters getting mad, but why in OOC? There are much more "good" characters then "evil" ones. I see no reason to blame any of us for your fun loss.

This is a struggle in game. When "our" side was loosing a year ago, "we" worked up and took over in some months. I just want to know why you didn't do something in game before complaining about it all OOC.

[Dantagon Marescot]

I don't know who you are talking about specifically for complaining OOC. I am trying to do my best to avoid OOC bitching on the forums because this is an ig matter and I would like to let it continue as such. I could care less whom we label as good or bad guys ig. Personally I don't think William, Dominic, or Cromwell are either, they just are being human and wanting things for themselves or looking for gain. All that matters is these people are being viewed such a way ig that makes characters mad. Besides that, this OOC convo is useless at this point and we need to focus ig instead of bitching here.

Understand that I'm not mad at anyone for this. Other people may be. I just think it is an interesting situation and have to figure out how to fix it. I just want both sides to have fun duking this out.

[Juliana D'cheyne]

I would just like to point out I have more "good" chars then "shady/bad" chars and am not complaining about anything ig or ooc related to the present politics and towns (in fact, I have had a good time ig with the suspense ) and would appreciate NOT being grouped as such, i.e. good chars versus shady in this thread....in game, is another matter entirely. There are a few vocal POs, but quite a lot have not even posted in this thread. I agree PO Dantagon, Cromwell, Dain.... this is an ig matter.

[Greisling]

I was about to leave things as they are in this topic. However, I've thought about the mirror-thingy Cromwell mentioned - perhaps there is truth in it. I've read Lrmy's posting and had to read that a major person in this whole affair still has not understood why some others players are concerned.

I will write for a very last time what the main issues are. Why this has gone OOC and why this is needed to have been discussed in OOC. I will try to consider both sides.


1. Who is "the temple"/"the government"/"the evils"?
A point of view
For many POs and thus for their chars it is very difficult to distinguish between the membership of some chars. Are they Temple? Are they Government? Are they Caelum? Well, many POs/chars cannot know, since not everyone is not involved into these structures. All what outsiders can see: There are a lot of characters who often stick together, fight/train together, make trouble together, attack other towns together. It is nothing but logic that it has the impression that they are all strongly connected to each other. So basically it makes no difference for many POs if these characters are Temple/Caelum/whatever, since IG there is the impression as if all of them belong to one group.
Who are these characters? Imo: Dain, Deuce, William, Dominic, Avalyon, Grivijak, some other orcs and finally Edward as the apparent IG leader of all of them.

Another point of view
The POs of these characters know the IG backround in detail. They may distinguish between each other. So, they are not all the same. Nevertheless, they train with each other and attack other towns together. Perhaps all these actions have nothing to with eacht other. Perhaps there is no story backround when some attack Varshikar the one day and then attack the Grey Refuge another day. I don't know. However, in the moment these characters do so, others naturally will have the impression as if they all act together and with a plan behind it. That is why some see these characters as one group, even when this might not be the case.


2. Abuse of IG power
A point of view
Some had the feeling that some actions of the group mentioned above /or individuals of it (I'll call them "Group" for making it easier) were not very well planned and/or bad implemented/played. Some of the characters of the Group belong to the most skilled warriors or mages IG. There rarely are any other characters who can beat them one on one. Now, some have the impresions that the POs of these skilled chars go to other people (in other towns) and know very well that they do not have to fear anything, because they won't be clouded. They do not show any fear IG, even when they stand against more (but OOC known weaker) characters.
So, some of these skilled chars just attack other characters and cloud them - sometimes even when they try to flee. Of course, people are upset then. If this would happen once, fine. But recently it became too much. Well, Lrmy stated that they "have not killed that many chars". I answer you: What is not much for you might be too much for others. Clouding someone remains the ultimative power characterrs have IG - so you HAVE to use it wisely for not to upset others!
Another important point is that this Group consits of a few characters only. By attacking other towns/guild, who do not want to be attacked at all without any warning, this Group has lessen the mood of whole towns/guilds to have fun with the game.

Another point of view
Perhaps some POs enjoy it to have such skilled characters. Perhaps some POs think that anyone should fear them or treat them with much respect. If not happen that way, well, then they have to be clouded. Perhaps there were some moments when the POs were bored in Trollsbane and thus attacked some other towns/guilds. Perhaps there is a great plan behind attacking all Varshikar, the Grey Refuge and lots of other characters in Trollsbane?
Well, one has to keep in mind that nobody except them knows their motivation for sure. Explanations were not given, yet.


3. Poor storyline
A point of view
For people who are not part of the Group, it is hardly able to know what the plans of this group are. Is there a masterplan behind taking over Trollsbane, attacking another town and another guild? Is there a deeper reason for this?
Well, it is only possible to assume according to IG actions. And many have perceived some group's behaviour as random clouding and senseless attacks of leaders of other towns, and all of them often roleplayed poorly. Such behaviour upsets people, of course.
Regarding the fact that there is close to no activitity on the town board, nor the town guard board and the fact that attackings happened out of blue sky, it seems if there is no storyline at all.

Another point of view
Well, since the PO of Cromwell was not able to play this game for some weeks, the rest of the Group was more or less left alone. So, perhaps they did what they liked to without considering a coherent storyline much? But perhaps there is a broad plan behind it? It is hard to know for sure for outsiders of that Group.



So, why does this need to be discussed OOC? Well, have a look over the three main points and you'll see that these are things which have to be considered by the POs. These are the reasons why some people are upset and do misunderstand each other.
Things can only be really solved if the POs think over their IG behaviour.

Of course, the final solution will have to take place IG. Though, OOC knowledge is necessary to solve it in a good way.

Thanks for considering.