Minute-Men Army

Albernon · Post by **Albernon** » Fri Jan 09, 2004 12:23 am

By the way, from how clueless this cloaked person seems, I'd say he probably just returned to Troll's Bane from another place. Might narrow down the number of people a bit...

Albernon · Post by **Albernon** » Fri Jan 09, 2004 12:33 am

Grant Herion wrote:Trolls Bane wasn't an anarchy before Lyrenzia. Infact I believe everyone lived exactly the same way they do now when the town was first founded. Albernon, before Lyrenzia it was the same as now. Do not give the thought to iggnorants that we are in the dark and Lyrenzia is the light.

Grant Herion

Troll's Bane wasn't an anarchy before? Please learn the meaning of anarchy and stop wasting my time.

Exactly the same way? I rest my case then.
If nothing has changed, then obviously that means there's nothing wrong with Lyrenzia that wasn't wrong with this town already.
Not better and not worse.
Thanks for supporting my argument yet again.

And how many times have we come to this conclusion with you now Grant Herion? Just can't teach and old dog new tricks.

I never said anything about light and dark. It's you who keeps coming to that conclusion yourself. The only difference is talked about is law and anarchy.

By the way, feel free to keep telling me stories about the town when it was first founded. I'd love to hear about the things that I couldn't see when I was around and that you somehow magically know about when you weren't here.

Cloaked Man · Post by **Cloaked Man** » Fri Jan 09, 2004 1:38 am

Shut up about Anarchy if it was I could make my own lyrenzia and force everyone to do as I say or they would go to jail much like lyrenzia did.

Aragon I read the chronicle it merely said "lyrenzia intorduces itself to the public" know what the hell does that mean? Sounds to me like they just took control. And truly what proof do you have to say someone did it? a witness testifys and BAM! trial ended. If there of no importance: TO JAIL. If they are of much importance (Tialdin for example) their innocent.

Cliu Beothach · Post by **Cliu Beothach** » Fri Jan 09, 2004 1:41 am

Accepting Lyrenzia means:
-Lyrenzia can
-You can't

So basically Lyrenzia is a dictator.

Albernon · Post by **Albernon** » Fri Jan 09, 2004 2:00 am

Cloaked Man wrote:Shut up about Anarchy if it was I could make my own lyrenzia and force everyone to do as I say or they would go to jail much like lyrenzia did.

If it was an anarchy:
YES YOU CAN
YES YES YES YES YES YES YES
What part of YES do you not understand?

ANARCHY is the DEFAULT
ANARCHY means no government, no rules, got it?
If you don't accept anyone as the government, then that means ANARCHY.

You're so stupid.
You disagree that Lyrenzia makes the rules, which means it is an anarchy where nobody rules, and yet you say "shut up about anarchy". YOU are the one who wants anarchy, not me. I want Lyrenzia.

You don't believe in anarchy?
Then DON'T go for anarchy.
I DON'T go for anarchy.
I go for Lyrenzia.

Understand yet?

So basically Lyrenzia is a dictator.

If you accepted Lyrenzia, sure Lyrenzia is the dictator that you accepted yourself.
If you don't accept Lyrenzia, sure Lyrenzia is a dictator, just like everyone else in also a dictator in an anarchy, since we can all do whatever we please.

Cloaked Man · Post by **Cloaked Man** » Fri Jan 09, 2004 2:28 am

Alberon Anarchy is the Absense of laws and government therefore Lyrenzia CANT do what it does

Cloaked Man · Post by **Cloaked Man** » Fri Jan 09, 2004 3:33 am

The fact that island was/is an anarchy does not give an outside force (lyrenzia) the right to come in and take over.

Mishrack · Post by **Mishrack** » Fri Jan 09, 2004 4:15 am

They were not an outside force that came in and took over... Lyrenzia was created BY the people of trollsbane, for trollsbane..

Cloaked Man · Post by **Cloaked Man** » Fri Jan 09, 2004 4:48 am

Lyrenzia was created by SOME people of trollsbane for ALL people of trollsbane.

Mishrack · Post by **Mishrack** » Fri Jan 09, 2004 4:51 am

Very few people are completely uninvolved, as most are members of the member guilds. Besides, there are also guildless people as councilors that can be voted in regularly. As such, if you really want to, you can have a voice.

Darkform · Post by **Darkform** » Fri Jan 09, 2004 5:57 am

in my opinion Lyrenza is the city that is in the island it 's elected counclers are colectively the mayor

underground that city is silverbrand a city of drarfs run buy there oun mayor whitch hapens to be there guild leader

to the west is the city Greenbrire run buy a councle of 3 and is the property of the Evergreen Halflings

to the north-east is the city of Northerot curently under dispute with Darlok and Grant in charge of the 2 seperat groups claming rights to the land

to the south there may be a city but I am not shure if it is one yet

most of this land would think these statements true

after thoese there are guild buildings and the prison. Lyrenza has as it seems put the Grey Rose in charge of policeing the town

of these and others guilds do ally with other guilds and Government type groups

ok time to stop posting for now ((implieing me))

Darkform

Aragon · Post by **Aragon** » Fri Jan 09, 2004 11:41 am

Cloaked Man wrote:Alberon Anarchy is the Absense of laws and government therefore Lyrenzia CANT do what it does

Man! Get it!
In an anarchy, everyone can do what he want, also Lyrenzia.
It is ridiculous.
You make the law, that Lyrenzia can't do what they do. Why can you?
Who gave you the right to say, that Lyrenzia can't?
With this, you take yourself the same right, that Lyrenzia has taken for himself.
Lyrenzia has decided in the state of anarchy to set up laws. They have the right to do so, because it is anarchy.
Now, Lyrenzia put these laws to others. They can do, because in an anarchy, they can do what they want ...
Get it?

Cloaked Man wrote:The fact that island was/is an anarchy does not give an outside force (lyrenzia) the right to come in and take over.

Lyrenzia was never an outside force. Lyrenzia are several people living on this island for years. Many of them much longer than you or Grant or others complaining about Lyrenzia now.
Read the chronicles. These guilds, working on Lyrenzia are old guilds living there long before Lyrenzia was established.
Read the chronicles. The wish for some government was much older than Lyrenzia. First steps were made in the former guild council years ago.
Read the chronicles. SMACC and his idea was older than Lyrenzia.
Read the chronicles. The laws set up by Lyrenzia werethe unwritten laws, which were valid in Troll's Bane before.
Get it now? Lyrenzia didn't came out of thin air from outside and said, we are now the universe. Lyrenzia was a logically development from the last years.

Aragon ben Galwan
Earl and Templar of the Grey Rose
Priest of Malachin
Councilor of Lyrenzia

The Returner · Post by **The Returner** » Fri Jan 09, 2004 12:20 pm

*A post with heavily disguised handwriting appears*

Okay........

Galwan, I say that Lyrenzia can't make the laws anymore!

What are you going to do? Its an anarchy! get it?

Lyrenzia has no more power......

They can't stop me.....Its an Anarchy!

~Unsigned~

Hagen von Rabenfeld · Post by **Hagen von Rabenfeld** » Sat Jan 10, 2004 3:10 am

In an anarchy dear, confused writer, Lyrenzia is free to stop you. No laws means noone has the right to forbid anything. Like stopping you.

Of course, some individuals will always say we restrict their freedom by forbidding murder, theft, towncasting, incineration, torturing people and robbing them and by punishing people for doing so. In fact we restrict their freedom by protecting others of their perverse lust they take in others pain.

How dare we to oppress such poor souls, doing nothing but following their leanings? We are so cruel.

~Hagen von Rabenfeld~

Hagen von Rabenfeld · Post by **Hagen von Rabenfeld** » Sat Jan 10, 2004 3:13 am

((sry yesterday the HP bugged around, thats why i posted multiple times..shame on me

))

Hagen von Rabenfeld · Post by **Hagen von Rabenfeld** » Sat Jan 10, 2004 3:17 am

((sry

))

Hagen von Rabenfeld · Post by **Hagen von Rabenfeld** » Sat Jan 10, 2004 3:20 am

((..))

Cloaked Man · Post by **Cloaked Man** » Sat Jan 10, 2004 3:24 am

The Lyrenzian's contention that they are justified in taking over the island relies on a Hobbesian view of the the state of nature that precedes the establishment of govenment. In the real world, Hobbes was in error at several levels. In this reality, his arguments are totally irrevelant. Hobbes beleived that life in an anarchy would be "nasty, brutish, and short." In Illarion, the Lockean philosophy that each is entitled to property produced by his own labor has been the governing principle and should continue to be the governing principle. The only moral reason to establish a government is resist an outside power or a strong power within Illarion. The Lyrenzian's have established a power that is not a valid social contract, and therefore all who resist are acting in a moral and necessary manner until a social contract that respects the rights that were present before the Lyrenzain usurpation of power.

The Returner · Post by **The Returner** » Sat Jan 10, 2004 4:25 pm

No one has the right to forbid anything, and yet....

No one from northerot, can freely enter town?

Petty crimes, are overly punished, even to innocent patrons as long as someone well known speaks in offense of them?

Theres a militaristical force, which "Guards" our walls

Theres walls to begin with

and I could go on.....

Lyrenzia is not an anarchy, its a tyranny.

~unsigned~

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Sat Jan 10, 2004 4:50 pm

Since when could citizens of Northerot not enter town? Sure we can't vote, but I have actively walked past many town guards that know my name. I think you should rethink this or show me where it says this.

~Avrillon~

Caranthir the great · Post by **Caranthir the great** » Sat Jan 10, 2004 4:56 pm

We are a tyrants? Yes, It makes sense, considering that you are unable to criticize us.. Wait a moment.. You are able to do that! If we were such Tyrants, you'd all be hanging from the nearest treetops as a warning to others, yet, you are not.

Petty crimes are overly punished? Petty crimes? Murder? Arseny?

Pronon Palmsuger · Post by **Pronon Palmsuger** » Sat Jan 10, 2004 6:33 pm

((delete))

Ferrari Swifteye · Post by **Ferrari Swifteye** » Sun Jan 11, 2004 1:11 am

Since you inqusitve dunderheads insist on knowing my identity. I am Ferrari Swifteye.

~Ferrari Swifteye

Algoran · Post by **Algoran** » Mon Jan 12, 2004 4:08 am

No Caranthir "the great". Most of you are puppets. The real Tyrants have not spread their power far enough yet to show their true faces. Bit by bit they take our land and our freedoms away. When they are strong enough, then you will see the truth. I say listen to your own words. No matter what the people want, Lyrenzia will do as it pleases. While you and your ilk play word games and call all who disagree fools, they build walls to trap us, prisons to quiet us and a castle to dominate us. lyrenzia are not hanging us from the tree tops YET, they are all smiles and for the good of all. Hah! a smiling demon is still a demon, you just have to worry what he's smiling about.

Algoran.

Albernon · Post by **Albernon** » Mon Jan 12, 2004 7:42 am

By the way, I think Ferrari Swifteye was convicted of a crime in a trial a long time ago before for anyone who doesn't realize it.

No one has the right to forbid anything, and yet....

No one from northerot, can freely enter town?

You just don't get it, Returner.
EVERYONE "CAN" do ANYTHING. That INCLUDES "STOPPING" others from doing something. That's why no rights are secure or absolute in an anarchy. "Rights" are in a paradox where rights are everywhere and non-existant at the same time.

1) I can say I forbid you to eat carrots
2) You can ignore me and continue to eat carrots
3) I can stab you with a knife and say "stop eating carrots"
4) You can kill me and continue to eat carrots
5) Someone else can come and threaten you to stop eating carrots
6) Go back to number 2.

Don't you get it yet? That's what anarchy means. That's how we lived.
It's a damn cycle. That's why it's useless to talk about what you can or cannot do in an anarchy.

Pronon Palmsuger wrote: You know, maybe these people against Lyrenzia are right. The more I look at it the more Lyrenzia does look horrible. Ever since they declared they could create a trial outside there jusrestiction/outside of town they seem to have been a little.....odd.

~Palmsuger~

Let me ask you this Palmsuger:
Before Lyrenzia existed, did you or anyone else ever raise your sword against a robber stealing from an old woman even if it was happening outside the town?
If yes, then I accuse you and everyone else of overstepping your "jurisdiction" as you seem to believe Lyrenzia is restricted to.
If no, then it's no wonder the island was crime filled and calling out for justice.

Before Lyrenzia, whenever a dispute arose on our island, everyone takes a side.
By doing nothing, you have decided that you believe the accused was innocent.
By doing something, you have decided that you believe the accused was guilty.
That was how we all lived before Lyrenzia.
So what makes you think Lyrenzia should be not allowed to do the same things we all have always done as individuals? Lyrenzia can't have an opinion and act on it, when everyone else can?

Don't you get it? You say Lyrenzia is wrong to start a trial out of it's jurisdiction? Before Lyrenzia, people all simply killed out of your jurisdiction from their own opinion without even a trial.

Sure, some angry bad reputation criminals will say "the trials don't prove anything". So what? Before Lyrenzia, people killed each other without any "proof" to the public at all to justify anything.
Then obviously, Lyrenzia's method is at worse the same as the old method, if not better.

Albernon · Post by **Albernon** » Mon Jan 12, 2004 8:20 am

Cloaked Man wrote:The Lyrenzian's contention that they are justified in taking over the island relies on a Hobbesian view of the the state of nature that precedes the establishment of govenment. In the real world, Hobbes was in error at several levels. In this reality, his arguments are totally irrevelant. Hobbes beleived that life in an anarchy would be "nasty, brutish, and short." In Illarion, the Lockean philosophy that each is entitled to property produced by his own labor has been the governing principle and should continue to be the governing principle. The only moral reason to establish a government is resist an outside power or a strong power within Illarion. The Lyrenzian's have established a power that is not a valid social contract, and therefore all who resist are acting in a moral and necessary manner until a social contract that respects the rights that were present before the Lyrenzain usurpation of power.

Big words. I wonder where you took that from.
Anyways, now focus on this sentence that was underlined which I will now repeat:

In Illarion, the Lockean philosophy that each is entitled to property produced by his own labor has been the governing principle and should continue to be the governing principle.

Who decided that "each is entitled to property produced by his own labor" is true? How can you prove it? I don't recall who decided that this was the rule we lived by, except you. Are you now the supreme ruler of Illarion? You suddenly thought you can decide the principle that we live by?
Then it seems, you are just another "Lyrenzia".
Oh wait, you want to tell me that the "people" decided what you said? OK, read the next paragraphs below:

Algoran wrote: Bit by bit they take our land and our freedoms away. When they are strong enough, then you will see the truth. I say listen to your own words. No matter what the people want, Lyrenzia will do as it pleases.

Your freedoms? Please tell me exactly WHAT freedoms you had before Lyrenzia, WHO decided what freedoms you had, and WHO gave those people the right to make those decisions.

No matter what the people want, you say? Please tell me WHO the people are, HOW you know specifically that THOSE are the people, and WHO decided that THEY are the people.

Keep in mind that whatever answer you give, it would be YOUR answer only. You will never be able to prove that everyone else agrees with what you think is the truth. That was the problem that prevented the people of this town from making decisions and rules. You will never be able to say who has the power to do something without first taking the power to give it. Therefore I could accuse you of taking the power to decide these "truths" by yourself, much as you accuse Lyrenzia took the power to decide something, and break the cycle.

Dare I say this waste of time looks eerily like the same discussion that was already answered since day 1 of Lyrenzia, or do I have bring up the records?

The Returner · Post by **The Returner** » Mon Jan 12, 2004 2:16 pm

((Albernon, even in a half ooc board, unsigned posts are still counted as unsigned.))

Pronon Palmsuger · Post by **Pronon Palmsuger** » Mon Jan 12, 2004 6:17 pm

Alberon, forgive me I am very...confused right now. I am not sure who to follow, im not really sure about much of anything anymore.

Ferrari Swifteye · Post by **Ferrari Swifteye** » Mon Jan 12, 2004 6:24 pm

Albernon wrote:By the way, I think Ferrari Swifteye was convicted of a crime in a trial a long time ago before for anyone who doesn't realize it.

Mind you although I was innocent I gave arist the required number of goods and I certainly served my time, being locked up behind your towns protectors castle for four months, I would say that is a little longer than 10 hours.

Ferrari Swifteye

Aristeaus · Post by **Aristeaus** » Mon Jan 12, 2004 7:58 pm

This man speaks the truth.

Ari§teaus

Illarion.org

Minute-Men Army

in my opinoin

anarchy discussion

Re: anarchy discussion

Yep