Prison Time & Problems

Keikan Hiru · Post by **Keikan Hiru** » Sat Nov 15, 2003 4:33 pm

10 Hours Jail = 10 Hours real Time

But I want to underline what Serpadum said:
The Jail was never meant to hold a Player this long.

When I, or any other GM, jails we mostly jail vor serveral Minutes up to a low number of hours.
(My longest jail was 180 Minutes, my shortest 5 Minutes)

We use this for small offences, like minor powergaming, first offenders, or just to calm a player down who got to much personal involved.

But with granting the ability to jail to the community the jail time (given by players to players) increased to 10 hours.
So the community punishes the community harder than expected.
Intessting, isnt it?

Galim · Post by **Galim** » Sat Nov 15, 2003 4:36 pm

are the fathers of this game sure that they have done it for their programming studys and not for their study of psychology

?

Ezor Edwickton · Post by **Ezor Edwickton** » Sat Nov 15, 2003 6:02 pm

When it comes to 10 hours in jail, it seem you are trying to discipline the player and not the character anymore.

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Sat Nov 15, 2003 6:13 pm

I must say Ezor does present a very good point. Thought somewhere that 3 real hours unofficially is about 1 illarion day. 3 1/3 days in prison for stealing I should say that isn't that bad, but we really need an official time basis for this.

Caranthir the great · Post by **Caranthir the great** » Sat Nov 15, 2003 6:15 pm

Not really. We just want to have a punishment that feels like punishment. This is done by some way that touches the player, because otherwise IMO it would have no effect whatsoever.

But if someone wants to change the jailtime to RL days without having to be there from the current system, go on.

Ezor Edwickton · Post by **Ezor Edwickton** » Sat Nov 15, 2003 6:18 pm

This game is supposed to encourage role playing, we should not punish the player who decieds his character is going to be a thief. With such long jail sentences you punish the player for deciding to role play in a certian manner, when he is not breaking any rules.

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Sat Nov 15, 2003 6:23 pm

Maybe when you are jailed the person jailing you should give you an ooc note of advice when roleplaying your character when he/she gets out of jail? This might help as most of the people who can put people in jail are well respected roleplayers and characters.

Caranthir the great · Post by **Caranthir the great** » Sat Nov 15, 2003 6:59 pm

Ezor Edwickton wrote:With such long jail sentences you punish the player for deciding to role play in a certian manner, when he is not breaking any rules.

Wrong again.
His character is breaking the IC rules (also known as laws), hence his character is put in jail.

There are certain very obvious risks involved if you choose to do something 'illegal' (with poor planning) with your character, if you can't comprehend the fact that your character is not able to do anything without retribution.. Well, that is not my problem. But if you especially decide to play a thief, you should not IMHO be bitching about the punishment your character gets when caught.

Now when we are at it, you could claim that every person who is fighting back when your assassin character is trying to kill them is somehow limiting your roleplaying. Worthless.

Willhelm von Krähenweiden · Sat Nov 15, 2003 7:04 pm

From my point of view the major problem of the jail ist that you/we are mixing up ooc and ic stuff.

It really sounds stupid, if you make a threat: "We(Lyrenzia) send him to jail...for 10 hours".

Sending a pg or random-killer to jail for 10 hours wouldn't be a problem for me, because he/she causes this punishment by his/her actions, but I think its terrible to force the player of a well-played RP-criminal to spend 10 useless hours in front of his screen.

Greets, William

Adano Eles · Post by **Adano Eles** » Sat Nov 15, 2003 7:07 pm

If you roleplay a criminal you must be prepared to roleplay every aspect of it. You can't just pick the positive parts and skip everything else. In real life it can happen that you spend a very long time in jail for committing a crime, and why should it be different in Illarion? Why should you have the possibility to just wait offline or with another char until your jailtime is over?

Edit:

The time isn't useless. Maybe there doesn't happen much but it is an opportunity for its own roleplaying action, as described further above.

Guillermo Ballesta · Post by **Guillermo Ballesta** » Sat Nov 15, 2003 7:29 pm

Willhelm von Krähenweiden wrote:From my point of view the major problem of the jail ist that you/we are mixing up ooc and ic stuff.
but I think its terrible to force the player of a well-played RP-criminal to spend 10 useless hours in front of his screen.

...Its the same in RL.
If someone commits a crime and there are witnesses or prooves that he did it, then police will try to catch him, and if they do he will go to prision.
So its a crucial part of the roleplay that a thief or any other criminal who is declared guilty and catched goes to prision or is punished in any other way.
I cant understand why people complain about this fact? Do you really think its good RP to let a criminal do whatever he wants?
It is clear that playing of an evil char is risky, in illarion and in RL too.
The point is that you should try not to be catched or to try to avoid witnesses when you commit a crime.
But it makes no sense to me if you say that a good RPing criminal should not be punished.

Aragon · Post by **Aragon** » Sat Nov 15, 2003 8:26 pm

To bring some facts into this discussion:

The jail is used for ooc-punishments by the GMs and for the ingame punishments by trials through Lyrenzia Foundation. These are different things. Due to technical restrictions it isn't possible to shorten a given time and to escape from the jail without the help of a GM.

From the 43 trials of Lyrenzia and the 5 of Silverbrand since May, there were (to choose exiled was removed after trial #20, I think):

closed without verdict: 5
exiled: 7
banned due to rule breaking by GMs: 7
prisoned: 9
not guilty: 9
escaped until now: 11

So we are talking now about 9 people until May, which have suffered jail due to ingame reasons.

Argonia · Post by **Argonia** » Sun Nov 16, 2003 3:13 am

Is there any way that you can get out of Prison by say apologising, and sort of being on Parol (adding that roleplaying effect) ?

John Laffing · Post by **John Laffing** » Sun Nov 16, 2003 5:22 am

I believe that is is parole, not parol.

Fieps · Post by **Fieps** » Sun Nov 16, 2003 9:51 am

Released from prison by apologise, *giggles*

You understand, that we can´t take this sentence really seriously, or?
In terms of you play here a roleplay, it would be a little bit "laughable".

But like other persons here said before, every prison hour 1silver, so pay if you want get free.

Willhelm von Krähenweiden · Sun Nov 16, 2003 12:17 pm

Sorry, Adano, I know my english is horrible, so you maybe didn't get my point.

If you roleplay a criminal you must be prepared to roleplay every aspect of it. You can't just pick the positive parts and skip everything else. In real life it can happen that you spend a very long time in jail for committing a crime, and why should it be different in Illarion?

I didn't complain about the fact, that somebody is send to prison, but about the long time.

Adano Eles · Post by **Adano Eles** » Sun Nov 16, 2003 2:22 pm

My post wasn't directed towards you, only the part behind the "edit" was. You posted while I was writing and so I didn't see it before I hit reply.
It was rather meant to people who proposed changing jailtimes from online time to Illarion time. I have the feeling those players just want to outsit the negative aspect of criminal chars, and just play another char until this one is released and they can commit the next crime.

Ezor Edwickton · Post by **Ezor Edwickton** » Sun Nov 16, 2003 10:12 pm

being forced to sit in front of a screen stuck in jail punishes the person not the char for choosing to role play in a manner not again any rping rules. The rules of illarion yes, but there isn't anything wrong with rping that way. Unreasonable punishments will restrict a lot of good rp.

Zare · Post by **Zare** » Sun Nov 16, 2003 10:40 pm

I agree with you completly, Ezor. And, it goes the other way around, too. if somebody is sent to prison for OOC reasons, the character has to sit in jail, too.

"Hello, what are you in jail for?"

"Oh, I was powergaming, then argued with the gamemaster when he told me to knock it off."

".....oh...."

Hm.. doesn't make much sense, does it?
I think for OOC punishments people should just be banned, for about a week or two, depending on the severity of the crime.

Keikan Hiru · Post by **Keikan Hiru** » Sun Nov 16, 2003 11:00 pm

Other way arround:

Jail was supposed to be a additional punishment option for GameMasters.
It was given to players as the need arosed to have a Ingame Judical System.
If both OOC and IC Punishment cannot coexist, the ability to jail should be taken out of Players hand.

And by the way, if someone does not gasp the concept of roleplaying and talks to your/anyones character that way, he wont last long in Illarion.

I still dont understand why you complain about being lock up in Jail?
What else does someone do in jail than staring out of a window (if he got one) in these times?
If you feel bored, call for some friends who should visit your character while being in jail.

Guillermo Ballesta · Post by **Guillermo Ballesta** » Sun Nov 16, 2003 11:35 pm

Ezor Edwickton wrote:being forced to sit in front of a screen stuck in jail punishes the person not the char for choosing to role play in a manner not again any rping rules. The rules of illarion yes, but there isn't anything wrong with rping that way. Unreasonable punishments will restrict a lot of good rp.

sorry but I still dont get the point.
There is nothing wrong with rping that way, you are right, and there is nothing wrong in punishing people who rp in that way.
There are IG juridical systems in illarion, if you act as a criminal and get caught doing it its a perfect IG reason for punishing you...and jail is the most logic way since for example a loose of skills whould punish your char (thats what you want, right?), but it whould make no RP sense (why should someone be a worse carpenter just because he commited a crime?).
It is boring to be in jail, like keikan said...it should be boring, otherwise a jail whould be senseless in RL too.
What exactly do you think whould be the best system to punish a criminal IG?...whe could burn all the murders, or cut off the hands of thiefs so that they cant hold anything for the rest of their lives (I whould love to see this "good rping criminals" in this situation, Im sure they whould meet a "super-mage" and with his help their hands will grow out again suddenly) , but Im sure there will be more people complaining about that than about jail.

Or do you think that a "good rping" criminal shouldnt be punished by the "good rping" guards at all? The society of trollsbane whould end up in a "good roleplayed" chaos!

yataghan · Post by **yataghan** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 12:30 am

Ok I havent read this whole post but I have a theif character.

this is how my trail worked

I stole something (which i wont say) there was one wittness, I wanted this character to be a theif so I never #Ied anyone. the person i stole from took my number played it out well and told a few people my number in game and said to look out for me. 2 days later someone comes up to me asked me my name (I told them a false name) then begins to attack me. I ran away he goes on the site, looks at online players, finds the one he doesnt know (me) then puts my real name and full number on trial.

THAT is why theifs are hard to play, its easy to escape after being proven guilty. If the number and online player was removed it would be much better.

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 1:54 am

Well if there is not many people around town to blend in with, you'll probobly stand out. They had to guess who you were, and match the number with the name somehow.

Ezor Edwickton · Post by **Ezor Edwickton** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 2:34 am

Whoever did that is not a good role player at all. Using rl infor to find out in game info.
but about the jail system. In game punishments shouldn't be such a punishment to the rl player. For one thing i think they should actually have to capture the player and bring him to prison, in real life a criminal can run away and hide somewhere. And i think that jail terms for in game reasons should be able to be served while you are offline. That way the player is not punished for his role playing.

John Laffing · Post by **John Laffing** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 3:58 am

Maybe the GMs or Lyrenzia could impose a fine of a certain amount or cut down/reset your skills and let you serve jail time if you are caught and proven guilty of commiting a crime. This would cut down the amount of jail time and punishing the character more than the player.

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 4:41 am

Weren't some prisoners made into slaves? You could always "work them till they drop" to roleplay their loss of skill.

Bloodhearte · Post by **Bloodhearte** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 3:38 pm

My murdering sprees took place in the wilderness, not in the town. Lyrenzia can't touch criminals in the wilderness, so what the heck is so hard about going out there? Plenty of people wander between Northerot and Trollsbane all the time.

Playing a notorious baddie is tough, only if you're too public about it. You can enjoy having a rise out of the town, but you should probably watch how quick your 'language' skill will shrink in a matter of days...

Aragon · Post by **Aragon** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 6:59 pm

Ezor Edwickton wrote:For one thing i think they should actually have to capture the player and bring him to prison, in real life a criminal can run away and hide somewhere.

I can only speak for myself, not for Dyluck. I always search the person and jail them, if I stand near them.
But there is also the problem of the game engine. There is no possibility to hold someone. The criminal can run as long as he want without the chance to catch him technically. That doesn't also make no sense. And typing a command takes time. So what shall I make, if he run and run? When have I catched him really? Always concidering, what the game engine allows and what not.
Think also about Troll's Bane as a town. There are several people on streets, normally the gates are guarded in a medival town. Sure, noone can play 24/7. Therefore no guardsystem will work and there are times, not many players are online. But on the other hand, a crimininal, marked through a public trial, walking openly in town, selling/buying in the shop with Eliza doesn't make much sense. That is also bad rp.

Ezor Edwickton wrote:And i think that jail terms for in game reasons should be able to be served while you are offline. That way the player is not punished for his role playing.

That doesn't fit together, what you say. Ingame reasons have ingame consequences, not outgame. If a char does a crime, he has to face the concequences of this crime. The crime was made ingame, the concequences should also be ingame.
The only ingame consequences, he has to face now, is jail or be murdered by several witnesses. These are the only ingame methods, which can be put on another char. Every other measure needs the will of the criminal to play with, like paying money or exiled (think again, that noone can guard the town 24/7, using times of less players for walking freely through town as an exiled doesn't make sense at all). It is a kind of fairness in a roleplaygamne, that such settings are respected.
I could have jailed for example easily Vobe (technically), while hiding in Northerot. But as I think of Northerot and the castle as a crowded place, I only talked there to Vobe and demanded him to come with me. He was jailed later, when walking down the streets of TB.

Vindigan · Post by **Vindigan** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 8:59 pm

I think what he meens is that the player has to spend 10 hours of his/her time watching their character in jail. I'm not sure how it works, but even once you log out, it should still count down the time on your sentence because when you log out, your character sleeps, i presume, or do you have to rp your character sleeping as well?

Ezor Edwickton · Post by **Ezor Edwickton** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 11:26 pm

exactly.