Curiosity

[Mishrack]

France has won a single war

Ever heard of Napoleon? he practically owned most of Europe for 15 years. Now let's see the American war diary.
WW1 - Dominated by Fracne and England.
WW2 - Russia and England.
Korea - Lost
Vietnam - Lost
Gulf War - Lost
Kosovo - Lost.

Before you start spewing allegations, think...

And the London crimerate is EXTREMELY high

Have a look at the crimerate in new york...

Also, note that Germany has started 2 world wars

Wrong again.
WW1 was started by Serb extremists assassinating the Austro-Hungarian crown prince. Then the different alliances brought the whole thing down.

WW2 was only allowed to happen due to Chamberlain's inability to spot Hitler's ambitions. And the US was much more interested in it's economic incentives in China than Europe. Ever heard of General Patton?

we WON BACK Sweden after Nazi Germany took it over

Wrong again. Germany withdrew by herself, as she needed the manpower to defend her positions elsewhere...

[paul laffing]

I did not start this discussion, and you might be surprised how much I know about war.

[Fieps]

You was the first who spoke about war, the others talked about different countries, and so yes you started the discussion.

Concerning your knowledge about war, take a look at Mishracks post, so far to your cognition.

Perhaps you will regognice that´s here not the right forum for such kind of interlocutions and go to a other place, if you need it to talk about war?


P.S.: If you know soooo much about warfare, you had heard, that if you die you are death and it´s not possible to come back to kill your murderer, maybe we will have the luck you know at least this....

[Cuderon]

The possibility to get shoot in your home if you own a weapon is much higher as if there is none...

In the United States of America are more people imprisioned than in China, that has nearby 10 times more inhabitants and is under the controll of a communist / socialist regime.

There are some more statistics that show up that there is not everything allright with the Bush administration, but this would be nonsense. Just don´t let patriotism overwhelm logic thoughts and vote the next time not such (oh... I forgot. He wasn´t voted legaly) a cowboy president.

BTW: I got 19/20 but wohoo! Who thinks, that christianity is the most popular religion? They faked this, pretty sure *g*
Aren´t there lots of christian religous groups and they count as one?

[paul laffing]

France has won a single war

Ever heard of Napoleon? he practically owned most of Europe for 15 years. Now let's see the American war diary.
WW1 - Dominated by Fracne and England.
WW2 - Russia and England.
Korea - Lost
Vietnam - Lost
Gulf War - Lost
Kosovo - Lost.

Thats funny, if the United States did not fight in WW2, then Europe would be Nazi right now, as would be South America. Russia and England did not win the war. Russia started to help after Stalingrad, when they pushed the German troops back. The Korean war was not lost, it was considered a draw, as there is a standstill at the 57 lateral or something like that. Yes, we retreated from the Vietnam. HOW DID WE LOSE THE GULF WAR?! Do you know anything about it at all? We declared a temporary truce after liberating Kuwait and moving into Iraq. And Kosovo was not lost, and besides that was not america, that was NATO! Get your facts straight.

Also, WW2 was not started because of Chamberlain's inability to spot Hitler's intentions, it was started because Hitler slowly took power away from Chamblerlain, and then on Krystallnacht, gained complete favor with the German peoples, except of course the Jews. Do not argue with me about Hitler and Nazi Germany, because it is part of my cultural history as a Jew when 6 million of my people were killed.

[paul laffing]

In the United States of America are more people imprisioned than in China, that has nearby 10 times more inhabitants and is under the controll of a communist / socialist regime.

USE YOUR LOGIC. Have you ever heard of Tienamin Square? The Chinese government murdered hundreds of students that spoke out of against the government. Why are there less people in prison? FIGURE IT OUT YOURSELF.

[Mishrack]

Thats funny, if the United States did not fight in WW2, then Europe would be Nazi right now, as would be South America

Paul, US was MUCH more itnerested in the money in the pacific than Europe.

he Korean war was not lost, it was considered a draw, as there is a standstill at the 57 lateral or something like that.

Truman (us president...) Declared "Not a step more" in his famours doctrine, reffering to fighting back communism. As such, America entered the Korean war to destroy the Communists. Instead, they divided the country into North and South, and left the North Koreans to the Communists. Yes... a truce...

HOW DID WE LOSE THE GULF WAR?! Do you know anything about it at all? We declared a temporary truce after liberating Kuwait and moving into Iraq.

Previous to invading Quwait, Saddam asked for Bush Sr.'s approval... which he got. Then desert storm began, or rather the incineration of troops and civilians alike... Finally Bush Sr. ran out of money, and had to stop the whole thing.... And yes, I do know that Gulfwar was not only the US's fault, but it still counts as their failure in the book.

And Kosovo was not lost, and besides that was not america, that was NATO! Get your facts straight.

Kosovo attempted an armed uprising against the Yougoslav government, and failed. US had assets in the area, so ran up and down screaming human rights violations until Nato had enough and intervened. Notice, that the nato forces involved were mostly US.

Also, WW2 was not started because of Chamberlain's inability to spot Hitler's intentions, it was started because Hitler slowly took power away from Chamblerlain

Are you aware that Chamberlain was the British Prime Minister at the time... Not the German Chancellor...

Do not argue with me about Hitler and Nazi Germany, because it is part of my cultural history as a Jew when 6 million of my people were killed.

What about the more than 16 Million Jews killed in C.C.C.P.?

[Albernon]

@paul laffing: You think one example represents the policy of an entire country and explains the general trend of the prison population?
Please don't throw around the word logic when you are clearly making poorly supported assumptions.

[paul laffing]

Also, WW2 was not started because of Chamberlain's inability to spot Hitler's intentions, it was started because Hitler slowly took power away from Chamblerlain

Are you aware that Chamberlain was the British Prime Minister at the time... Not the German Chancellor...

Sorry, I forget names easily, but I thought the Prime Minister to Britian was Churchill at the time. *shrugs*

Albernon, you need more examples? How about when Mao killed hundreds of millions of his people in some sort of "economic revolution"? Do you know anything about China?


Mishrack, when you talk of the 16 million jews killed, I'm guessing you either mean when Stalin killed millions of peasants in order to try to get rid of peasanty, or you mean from 1948-1953 when Stalin started killing Jewish doctors and lawyers, saying that they were purposefully malpracticing and things. Thank goodness Stalin died in 1953, but then came Kruschev, so out of the frying pan and into the fire.

[Cuderon]

Amnesty International recorded 1,060 executions in China and 113 executions in Iran, but the true number was believed to be much higher in both countries. Seventy-one people were executed in the USA, up from 66 in 2001.

Since 1990 Amnesty International has documented executions of child offenders in seven countries: the Democratic Republic of Congo, Iran, Nigeria, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, the USA and Yemen. At least two of these countries, Pakistan and Yemen, have since changed their laws to exclude the practice. The country which has carried out the greatest number of known executions is the USA.

Source: amnesty international

I don´t want to start a discussion about death penalty, every country may decide that on theirselves. They may execute more people as the USA, but look at their inhabitants. Again, it´s 10 to one, maybe 9 to 1. But the USA call their self a democracy.

[Gro'bul]

mishrack, all i can say about ww2 if we had not developed the atomic bomb when we did the germans would have beat us to a bunch of awsome things they had in devolopement and we probobly wouldnt be talking today. As for the gulf war....riiiight, still dont see how that is a loss. No offense? saying bad things about people is an offense. I didnt check out that site but whatever.

[Albernon]

@paul laffing: Why do you think prison even exists in China?

Please don't go making single factor explanations for an entire national statistic based on your surface knowledge about a country's famous events. It's these kinds of stupid assumptions that creates inaccurate stereotypes and muddles the actual reasons behind statistics.

[Mishrack]

mishrack, all i can say about ww2 if we had not developed the atomic bomb when we did the germans would have beat us to a bunch of awsome things they had in devolopement and we probobly wouldnt be talking today.

This is fascinating... Are you aware of the fact that the Manhattan project was completed AFTER Germany had Capitulated to the Soviets? And also that most of the scientists making this fabulous piece of utter destruction were in fact german too?

As for the gulf war....riiiight, still dont see how that is a loss.

Are you ignorant? Bush Sr. Went to Iraq to dispatch Saddam. Yet he ran out of funds. US asked IRAQ for a truce, not the toher way round. If that is not a failure then I dont know what is.

[Cuderon]

The only nuclear weapons ever were thrown at Japan, when peace threaties were already in sight. Although hundred thousend civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki had to die.

[Mishrack]

The only nuclear weapons ever were thrown at Japan, when peace threaties were already in sight. Although hundred thousend civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki had to die.

Millions even. And do bear in mind that there were no military targets in those two cities at all. Even more interesting is the fact that the first thing the americans did after the bombing was to send Medics to do research on the effects... how very humane.

[Mishrack]

Before this gets even more out of hand, I would like to state that it was not my intention to start such a controversial topic. It was just a good humoured conversation, that turned sour due to some people questioning facts.
Anyways, Sorry all.

[Cuderon]

I think this discussion won´t bring US any further. Every country made it´s mistakes in closer or further history. We do live now and should know better than our ancestors. We have this great invention called internet to share our minds and thoughts, but not our stubbornness and egoism.

So please calm down (I know I wasn´t the best example at all) and just accept each others opinion. To discuss is important, but only in a factually way.

[Gro'bul]

mishrak, bush did not go to dispatch sadaam, he went because iraq was invading kuwait.

[Fieps]

@Mishrack Yo, that was the cause why i said "Please not again a discussion about war". Yup it was a motivated discussion, and if there are good arguments at both sides i join such "things" willingly.

But the problem is we are in my opinion to different, so it can mutate to conflict with two big parts and i think that´s not good for the community-climate.

Yes we have here several persons who speak mostly absolutely nonsense ( and it argue me always again, and i can´t understand why they can still "work" here ) and believe me, i would like it to see how somebody step really hard on their toes. ( with good arguments )

But at the costs of our climate, dont know.......

[Niniane]

I speak from experience when I say this, but every country has their own version of 'History' that they teach. When I was in High School (15-18 years old for those who don't have that exact term) all history taught to us, the students, was pro-us rhetoric that showed how wonderful the US was and just how much the world loved us because of all the great things we had done. Of course this was the government's 'spin' on the events that happened and this is one way in which they create nationalism to keep our government alive and running (as many other countries do).

The point to this seemingly nonsensical rambling is that most governments will implement such tactics in their national school systems. They may not alter the history they teach, but they can and do choose exactly what part of their history they will emphasize to make themselves look better than those around them. When an American comes out and says one version of their history (that of the United States) they are telling you what they were told, and when those from another country comes out with an argument they too are making a rebuttal with that with which they were told.

I do admit that in most cases I believe that the non-Americans have clearly and decisively given a more accurate retelling of the worlds history including the US's involvement in wars within this thread but that does not mean that when telling your own governments actions in said wars, you too will not also give a pro-nationalistic retelling of the events but that is obviously due to the fact that your government taught you that just as ours taught us what we 'know'.

[martin]

I guess in general, I'm just completely disappointed with America... Maybe I'll move to Europe .

Don't expect too much.
Even if some of "us" sound like europe is much better, it isn't. Maybe it is, counting the average education or something, maybe it is when talking about the information broadcasted by the "standard"-media (higher quality news), but that's only valid for people who do not care. You *can* get better education in america than in europe, you *can* get better information about what's going on in the world, if you just want to

So, whatever "we" say about america, always hold in mind:
1) europe is not the paradise on earth
2) we're talking about the "average US", not about the whole one.

However, visiting europe might be if great interest, as much things tend to be different here. They are even different from what most americans believe them to be.

Martin

[martin]

Let me point out some things, taking this example:

We enjoy a lot of freedom, and don't need to worry about the military police knocking our doors down constantly.

We enjoy a lot of freedom, too, if not more in some things. Military police isn't knocking our doors down too. It's even better here: no NSA to read our e-mails here! No law forbids us to put our diploma thesis on a web server or publish it in some other way (this recently happened in america to a thesis about cryptography), we are not arrested or offended because we demonstrate against war, we have a health insurence for EVERYONE (yes, you can get ill here and do not have to pay (much ), EVERYONE gets medical treatment, no matter if he/she is rich or poor), we do have television here (but maybe only 100 stations instead of fourty million ), and yes, even the internet exists.
homosexuality isn't prohibied by law in any of the european unions countries and we do not kill people for commiting crimes but put them into prisons. And it's not possible to buy weapons at the local super market and kill half of your school with them.
And -- we respect human rights and do not bring people to Guantanamo (sp?) because we do not have to care about human rights there. (Is this your definition of "freedom"?)

You know what I mean?

(This is more like criticism on a system which some people seem to glorify; BTW: I could easily compile a similar list about my home country, just to make that clear)

And the London crimerate is EXTREMELY high, and you need to pay a tax of $8 just to ride on the streets.

This is simply wrong. Please tell me where you have that from (esp. the thing with crime rates). It is well known and statistics give evidence that crime rates of most crimes are MUCH higher in the USA than in europe. Get your facts straight, please.
You can get statistics from all over the net.
http://www.aic.gov.au/stats/international/
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvinco.html
etc. etc.

Also, note that Germany has started 2 world wars, in which America was a big force in winning, and we WON BACK Sweden after Nazi Germany took it over, so don't complain about not wanting America to liberate you.

That's nothing of an argument.
1) Learn history. Please.
2) How many wars did america start -- WITHOUT being a dictatorship?
3) No, I am not german.

And Switzerland... I won't go there.

What a pity! It's really one of the nicest places I've ever seen. Really.

Martin

[martin]

Its the same in America, except the system in America is a bit... awkward... But it makes it safer because it is easier to track the guns.

That is simply not true.
The NRA , which has a very, very strong lobby in america, is STRICTLY against registration of weapons. And they are so strong that the law won't be changed, so you don't have to register most weapons. Please learn about your own country.
And DONT TELL ANYONE THAT AMERICAS SYSTEM OF FIREARMS MAKES IT SAFER!

Martin

[martin]

In the United States of America are more people imprisioned than in China, that has nearby 10 times more inhabitants and is under the controll of a communist / socialist regime.

USE YOUR LOGIC. Have you ever heard of Tienamin Square? The Chinese government murdered hundreds of students that spoke out of against the government. Why are there less people in prison? FIGURE IT OUT YOURSELF.

Fact is:
In the US, more than 400 people out of 10000 are prisoners.
In china, it's only about 100 out of 10000. China violates human rights, that is true. The US does this too.
But that's not what this discussion was about.

Martin

[martin]

mishrack, all i can say about ww2 if we had not developed the atomic bomb when we did the germans would have beat us to a bunch of awsome things they had in devolopement and we probobly wouldnt be talking today.

This is historically untrue, although it was not 100% clear at the moment it was developed.
However, actually *using* the bomb was NEVER EVER JUSTIFIED.

Seems that knowledge isn't one of the things Illarion has.

Martin

[Galdriel]

@ Paul

please PLEASE first read about things, look at what realy happened and then cry it out to the world. its not realy a problem if you dont know precise facts about history, but to openly declare you lack of knowledge is strange. also it is not just NOT knowing but FALSE knowing, which is even worse.

[Gro'bul]

well according to you killing isnt justified, im not saying it is either, but it happens. all i can say is deal with it.make the best out of whats unoviodable.

[Senk Kluuspointe Gren]

WOULD YOU GUYS JUST SHUT UP!!!

This massive debate was started by me simply suggesting that Americans weren't as knowledgeable as they should be. I come back a day later and you guys have made your own damn war about it!

As for all you guys who didn't realise Christianity was the largest religion on Earth, I'm Druid for smile's sake, even I knew that Chrisianity is probably the only religion with the NEED to encourage everyone else into it and convert people (After all, if you're not christian, then apparently you're going to hell).

[Caranthir the great]

Every country has their faults.

Nah, not Finland.
We are the paradise on earth.

However;
@Paul laffing
Sweden was not involved in any stage of either world war, it was neutral the whole time. To avoid any misunderstanding, you were not speaking about Denmark or Norway either, because they were both occupied by the germans until the end of the war.

[martin]

Every country has their faults.

Nah, not Finland.
We are the paradise on earth.

Hehe.
What was that about alcoholism and finland I heared about?

Martin