Illarion.org

Thereadore wrote:
I would figure the same number and types of poepel who made the unwritten laws about no casting in town. It is not difficult to figure it out.

I'm sorry, but that is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
If it's not difficult to figure it out, why don't you tell me what the number is?

Not difficult? You're kidding right? Do you know how long ago that was? What if there were only 20 people living in the town at the time? Should 20 people make the laws now for today? And who gave you the right to decide that it should be the same number of people? See the problem yet?

Ellaron, having read and considered the replies takes his pen once more and writes

Caranthir the great, firstly thankyou for your compliments. As to the rest I have no problem with obeying the ancient laws 'Do not towncast', 'do not kill' and 'do not steal'. My problem is with a secret society setting itself up as the law makers and upholders. They claim they are not making laws just writing the unwritten ones. Yet in the laws I find

Use of spells for recreational display at special events are allowed, but arrangements must be made with and approved by Lyrenzia first.

I dont remember that one. What others will appear whilst we are not watching? Please dont get me wrong I'm all for the unwritten being written. But to do this do we need a castle? A huge formerly secret society? Why couldn't the laws just of been posted for all to see? Perhaps you will reply that a force is needed to uphold the law? But then Dyluck himself wrote

It's still up to each and every person to uphold the laws they believe, as it always has been. There will never be a specialized group or guard who can patrol the streets everyday and judge who is right or wrong, or fully protect you from outlaws.

So if that has not changed why is this organization needed? As to the prison, what appeals do we have against their judgements? What protection do we have from their corruption?

As to the SMACC question. Dyluck wrote

As for SMACC, these prices represent the minimum price as it has always supposed to. You are only used to trading by the average price, which some people began to call the SMACC price.

I am used to trading on the prices of the former SMACC list posted on these very walls. I am not pleading for myself. As a merchant I will make enough on the increased prices of other goods such as smithed items as to not feel the pinch. My worry is more for the Druids who have no other source of income.

Dear Ellaron,

Ellaron wrote:

Use of spells for recreational display at special events are allowed, but arrangements must be made with and approved by Lyrenzia first.

I dont remember that one. What others will appear whilst we are not watching?

we tried to summon up, what the short forms of the unwritten laws "don't kill", "don't cast in town", "don't steal" will mean in different situations.
If at a celebration a magical firework is made in town, it is obviously against the short form "don't cast in town". But on the other hand, it is a great joy to watch a fire work.
So we saw the need to differ the unwritten laws to different situations. To avoid the abuse of magic, we have said, that members of Lyrenzia have to announce such an event, to know if this is an abuse or not.

As for SMACC, we are trying to set up a SMACC-Council, where the prices of SMACC can be discussed and changed due to economical changes.
The listed prices may change in the future and we will try to avoid unbalances.
When we have found enough people, who like to work on SMACC, we will offer the SMACC-Council to the public and the citizens can talk to them, if they find some prices not well enough balanced in the list.

with kind regards,

Aragon ben Galwan
Earl and templar of the Grey Rose
Priest of Malachin
Councilor of Lyrenzia

The herold hang a fine paper outside the castle wall.

We proclaim, that Caranthir the great, trader of the Silver Star Merchants, former King of the Ironhammers is the Councilor of Lyrenzia for the Silver Star Merchants.

---

Der Herold hängt eine auf feinem Papier geschriebene Veröffentlichung an die Außenseite der Burgmauer.

Wir erklären hiermit, dass Caranthir der Große, Händler der Silver Star Merchants, früherer König des Ironhammers der Ratsherr von Lyrenzia für die Silver Star Merchants sein wird.

Ellaron, obviously if our 'secret society' attempts to sieze control of the town, no one will stand for it. Lyrenzia will not become a force to be feared, nor will it tax the citizens of Trollsbane. Your fears about Lyrenzia conquering the city aren't nessicary.

Ellaron tries to resist writing any more but cannot. "You're getting to be an old busybody Ellaron." He mutters as he settles down to write.

Thankyou for your reply Aragon. You wrote:

To avoid the abuse of magic, we have said, that members of Lyrenzia have to announce such an event, to know if this is an abuse or not.

But surely this must apply to all citizens of Trollsbane as it was stated earlier, anyone not following your laws will be dealt with as a criminal.
This then gives you the right to deny celebration to any group you disagree with. I worry what other clarifications might be slipped in unnoticed. I'm sure each of them will seem very reasonable, but each will repress the populace a little more, until we realise, too late, we are trapped under a dictatorship. I mean no disrespect to you or any of your membership, but you must realise that this has come out of the blue for most of us. How often have we been told, by some of your members in fact, that law enforcement of this sort was impossible due to being unable to consult the majority. It now appears that the majority has been bypassed and the work done in secret.

Ellaron reads through what he has written and worried he might mysteriously vanish in the night goes to rip up the parchment. "No! By the Gods I'll have my say and be done with it." He says aloud and bashes the pin through the parchment into the board with his fist. Nursing his now injured hand and muttering to himself he wanders of to find some herbs to soothe the pain.

The Lyrenzia Foundation was created with the sole purpose to bring a little bit of order into the anarchistic chaos we used to have in our town. The fact that everything was planned in secrecy is something that was learned from the failed attempt on creating a guild council long ago. This showed clearly that there is no way of creating a higher structure which is open for everyone without someone who can make a clear decision without senseless discussions. There are still people who just want to be in charge of everything without even knowing or caring about the duties which go with this position.
Such an institution needs to consist of people who take those duties really serious and also have the knowledge and wisdom to fulfill them in the right way.
I had my own concerns about the secret nature of these plans when I first heard about them, but I understand that the people that formed Lyrenzia are exactly those who can do this job right.

Lyrenzia was made for the people, not against them. It will hear the voices of those who are not members too, without the need of complicated, ineffective structures which go hand in hand with public votings.

Adano Eles

Knight of the Grey Rose
Student of the Khana Len; Apprentice of the Great Temple of the Five and Eleven

Ellaron wrote: They claim they are not making laws just writing the unwritten ones. Yet in the laws I find

Use of spells for recreational display at special events are allowed, but arrangements must be made with and approved by Lyrenzia first.

I dont remember that one. What others will appear whilst we are not watching?

So you were present when the specific details of the no-town casting rule were first being formed? You were there to see that Lyrenzia and that rule didn't exist at that time? Do you know which laws were unwritten and their details and which laws exist and which ones don't?

Well Lyrenzia didn't exist back then, but the point is that it is so easy for you to say what you think the existing laws that were written are, but how do you know? How you can you prove it? You can't. For ages, people have only been able to declare and uphold what they THINK is law.

When a person stopped another from killing, stealing, or towncasting, did you have a problem with them because they were making laws and upholding them?

When it comes to making and upholding the law, the Lyreniza foundation is a large group of people who agree on the same laws and uphold them, just as anyone else makes and upholds the law they believe. Is a group of people upholding common laws that they believe a more unfair opression than every individual upholding uncommon-unspecified laws?

One difference is that those who believe in the same specific laws as us can now claim that these 7 guilds and population of the Lyrenzia Foundation also agrees with him. Those who believe in their own laws will only have the blank words of the unwritten laws that they believe exist.

If someone starting casting spells in the town and claimed it was for fireworks, what would you do? Do you know whether this is against the law or not? Well, the members of the Lyrenzia Foundation certainly have a specific opinion about this, and we've made it publicly known.

Ellaron wrote:Please dont get me wrong I'm all for the unwritten being written. But to do this do we need a castle? A huge formerly secret society? Why couldn't the laws just of been posted for all to see? Perhaps you will reply that a force is needed to uphold the law? But then Dyluck himself wrote

It's still up to each and every person to uphold the laws they believe, as it always has been. There will never be a specialized group or guard who can patrol the streets everyday and judge who is right or wrong, or fully protect you from outlaws.

So if that has not changed why is this organization needed?

I've explained more than enough times already as to what this organization can do. I'll summarize the big picture this way:

"The population" can't agree on something and make decisions because it's trapped in a vicious cycle of the question "Who decides who the people are?"

Lyrenzia Foundation is "a population" and it can make decisions for its people because we know who they are, and the decision makers have legitimacy from their people. It can legitimately specify critera for others who join its population so that things such as elections among its population will be possible.

Ellaron wrote:As to the prison, what appeals do we have against their judgements? What protection do we have from their corruption?

The same protection you have against the judgement and corruption in a trifle with the common man. Imprisonment will unlikely be "automatic" so your options as always might be to flee or resist those who try to punish you. But I can't fully answer your question until we have decided on the specific details of our system.

I am used to trading on the prices of the former SMACC list posted on these very walls. I am not pleading for myself. As a merchant I will make enough on the increased prices of other goods such as smithed items as to not feel the pinch. My worry is more for the Druids who have no other source of income.

As you can see, anyone could have modified the list and called it the SMACC list. Some people thought the "usual" prices was average while others thought it should be the minimum. Therein lies the purpose for the people of Lyrenzia to specify a pricelist by which they can commonly refer to.

The SMACC pricelist here was said to be the minimum price. It is by no means suggesting that druids should trade as low as the minimum price. They can still trade as high as the market allows possible.

Dyluck
Headmaster of the Magic Academy

Dyluck, you are the only one who can't decide who the people are. You are the only one who has a problem with it. I do not sssee anyone elssse complaining.

Ass far as magic in town for fireworksss, that isss not part of the unwritten law. The unwritten law issss you do not ussse magic in town unlessss it isss to defend yourssself when sssomeone isss attacking you or in town attacksss.

I do not think that this foundation can change that, they do not have the right. They do have hte right to only enfoce no town casssting when they wisssh, but they would not have hte right to attack sssomeone who went to enforce no town cassting that they did not agree with.

Thisss foundation hasss not right to change the lawsss unlesss the people give them that right. If they attempt to enforce lawsss they make themssselves, they will be found the enemy of the populace they wich to aid.

So, Theradore, tell us. Who are "the people"?
There are more then 35000 registered names in the books, but do you know how many of them still reside on this island? Do you know any mortal, who knows that?

And why do you exactly know what the "unwritten laws" say? Those laws were declared when most of us have not even heard about this island and town. They are older then the name of our town, older then some of the largest buildings in Troll's Bane and older then most of the guilds and groups we now know.
The "unwritten laws" said only what people considered them to say. It happened more then once that tho persons had different opinions of what they would say. It even happened during the winter festival that the lightning of a special bonfire for the festival was stopped because of casting in town, although there was a bonfire pit especially built for this event.
Lyrenzia now has decided what they say for them and all of us will enforce them the way it was decided. Others may have other opinions, as it has always been. The only difference is than all of us know that there are others who share our opinion, while people outside of Lyrenzia only know about their own.

Adano Eles

Knight of the Grey Rose
Student of the Khana Len; Apprentice of the Great Temple of the Five and Eleven

You could try a cencus to see who is present, make one every two months or so...

Also, if you are leading by might, then wouldn't you be setting up an army of some sort?

I totally agree with Adano Eles.
In order to make Lyrenzia work, we must be able to withstand all trials to "talk it dead", as happened with the town council. Endless discussions with always the same three people arguing and bad-talking everything ended the town council.
Lyrenzia will, instead of discussing endlessly, act. And it will act with the strength of the organisations within it, and with the strength of all supporting people. Only this way will it be possible to write down the town laws, to stop anarchy and chaos.
If you are with us, then help to support these goals.

Are you in some way opposed to any casting within the town limits at all, except to defend yourself Thereadore? Do you have some tremendous problem with this rule? If so, what is it?

i see nothing wrong with making some written laws as long as it does not impose on my everyday life.but unfortunately someone has to impose them, and it might not be so peaceful. ~~avrillon~~

Ellaron walks to the wall and reads the replies.

So much to reply to. Where to start?

First, Korwin. If I were a 'secret society' wishing to take over Trollsbane what would I do? I could march in and declare myself ruler and have every guild and citizen come to arms and destroy me.

Perhaps a better way would be to form a 'secret society' and ask some other guilds to join. It's only to write the unwritten laws of course. And, because its secret and for the good of the town, a guild would feel special, honoured even to be selected. The castle? Well that's just for meetings and perhaps trials. The warriors? Well they're just members of our new group although they may be used in upholding the law. So to writing the laws. Well we need to clarify some points obviously so we'll just change this and put this in. Oh, we might need to make some more laws later but we shan't discuss that now. After some time new laws have been made and different people have been caught and imprisoned for breaking "The Law". Even some of the higher membership have been caught and punished. I look around and see I'm now ruling Trollsbane and all the opposition has been dealt with. All live in fear and there is no one left to oppose this new tyrant.

I'm paraphrasing slightly but Pastor Niemoller wrote:

First they came for the Elves
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Elf.

Then they came for the Halflings
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Halfling.

Then they came for the Lizards
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Lizard.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

To Adano Eles. You say:

So, Theradore, tell us. Who are "the people"?
There are more then 35000 registered names in the books, but do you know how many of them still reside on this island? Do you know any mortal, who knows that?

So because no mortal can know who the majority are, a self elected minority should impose their ideas upon the rest of us?


To Dyluck. As always you provide the most reason to reply. You say:

So you were present when the specific details of the no-town casting rule were first being formed? You were there to see that Lyrenzia and that rule didn't exist at that time? Do you know which laws were unwritten and their details and which laws exist and which ones don't?

I think most of us can say we weren't there. Were the rules even decided at a particular time or did they evolve with the town and populace? You dont mention any of your members who were there, though you do say your organization wasn't. My problem is not with the fact that the laws need to be written but that you have set yourselves up to write them and change them at your whim. Not to mention build a castle to enforce that whim.

You also wrote:

.....but the point is that it is so easy for you to say what you think the existing laws that were written are, but how do you know? How you can you prove it? You can't. For ages, people have only been able to declare and uphold what they THINK is law.

You are right in that we and YOU cannot prove the unwritten laws. Now people will not have to uphold what they THINK the law is as they can uphold what YOU TELL them it is.

As to:

"The population" can't agree on something and make decisions because it's trapped in a vicious cycle of the question "Who decides who the people are?"
Lyrenzia Foundation is "a population" and it can make decisions for its people because we know who they are, and the decision makers have legitimacy from their people.

You have answered your own question. Because you couldn't discover who the people were you created your own. But you didn't stop there. Anyone who is not a member still has to follow your laws or else. Yes, with some variation your laws are the 'unwritten' ones of old, though you admit to not being able to prove what they were, but you have also given yourselves the power to change things to your liking.

To Damien. you wrote:

Lyrenzia will, instead of discussing endlessly, act. And it will act with the strength of the organisations within it, and with the strength of all supporting people.

This is the most frightening thing I've read so far. Thankyou for confirming it's not just an old man seeing Ogres in the shadows.

Whoever writes them down also has the responsibility of enforcing those laws. This cannot be done by a single person or a small group of people, only a large group can succeed in such a task.

Adano Eles

Knight of the Grey Rose
Student of the Khana Len; Apprentice of the Great Temple of the Five and Eleven

The laws just need to be written. The law abiding citizens will uphold them as they have always done. The main confusion was, as Dyluck said, that the laws were never written down and so open to interpretation.

Dear Ellaron,

I feel glad, that you are thinking and having sorrow about our lovely town. We need more of you, which feel responsible for their home.
I like a man thinking twice and looking at each side, weighing the arguments.

But where is the problem with the laws, Lyrenzia wrote down?
Aren't they for the safety of our streets and citizens?
What is wrong with people binding together and stating, that they want to hold these written down laws.
What is wrong with people, searching for the good things for our town?
Don't you trust these people and guilds in Lyrenzia?
They live here for years, many of them count to the eldest inhabitants of Troll's Bane.

You seemed to be a right man with principles. I suggest to you, join Lyrenzia and work on our future. You and your critical thoughts are welcome. We need people as you are.

With kind regards,

Aragon ben Galwan
Earl and Templar of the Grey Rose
Priest of Malachin
Councilor of Lyrenzia

This is not entirely true.
Those who did not accept the laws bacause they were unwritten will not follow them either if they are written down by someone who doesn't have enough respect and power to also enforce them.
The person or group who writes down a law cannot just hope that everyone will follow it. They need to make sure that they are followed.

Adano Eles

Knight of the Grey Rose
Student of the Khana Len; Apprentice of the Great Temple of the Five and Eleven

Dear Aragon,
This is my last note on the issue as I think I have made my point and am now worried that I may be made out to be against the good of the town.

As I have stated earlier I have no problem with the laws Lyrenzia have written apart from the one about celebration magic. These were the laws as I understood them to be anyway. My concern is that it did not stop there. A castle was built and a secret society formed which then declared itself rulers of Trollsbane. You have also given yourself the power to change the law and create new ones without the need to consult anyone except your members. These laws are then imposed upon the whole populace.

As to trusting your membership. I don't know them all of course but I have great respect and admiration for several of your members. This does not mean though that they are not being manipulated.

I will decline your kind invitation to join thankyou. But I shall monitor your progress closely.

If you wish to know my main worry read Damiens quote again.

Ellaron, you misunderstood Damiens words.
Please take a look at the older discussions which are hidden under the newer papers. Search for the ones where the guild council was discussed. You will see what happened. And you must admit ehat the potential for this to happen again is still here, and I can assure you, it would happen again if there is not a word of power which stops it right at the beginning.
Such word of power can be abused, right, so we have to make sure it will not be abused. This is the most difficult task, even more difficult then the task of bringing peace and justice to Troll's Bane.

Adano Eles

Knight of the Grey Rose
Student of the Khana Len; Apprentice of the Great Temple of the Five and Eleven

There is something that...hm.. I feel is just is not quite right about all this.
The one thing that does give me a good clue as to why is what I saw writen in the Lyrenzia Foundation contract. It reads as follows;

'The Order of the Grey Light and the Knights of the Grey Rose shall protect the Magic Academy from anyone who makes a public declaration of hostilities against it under the condition that the Magic Academy shall not declare hostilities against anyone to provoke such a confilct.'

Now the Grey Light and Grey Rose are disputedly the two most influential and powerful guilds in Illarion. The Magic academy is, altho not stated as a guild, could if needs be muster up its own force of mages.
So, we have the three most powerful known groups in Illarion, loyal to them selves and noone else. After all I see no contract to defend any other guild who has a council member in the Foundation. I mean The silverstar Merchants are not warrioirs so why do they not benafit from the protection?
So its all starting to take a familiar shape. I think its called 'the conspiracy triange'

At the center usaly dipicted as the all seing eye there is a tiny group in compleat controle, with one man as the as the udsiputed leader

Well now..I wonder who that group could be? Also I belive Dyluck wrote most of the the Laws which would lead me to the conculsion that he is the undisputed leader and he also has the 2 guilds defending his academy.

Next comes a circle of secondary leadership, that for the most part is completly unawear that there is an inner most core. They are lead to belive that they are the inner most ring.

hm...the guilds, tho only ones of the Lyrenzia Foundation choosing are alowed a councel member within the Foundation, who have a voice.

In time as the conspiracey is built from the inside out, they form additional rings of organisation.
Thos in the outer echelons are uslay poor idealist souls with an honest desire to improove Illarion. They never suspect inner control for sinister purposes and only those few who demostrate a ruthles compassion for higher ledership are ever allowed to see it.

The contract between the grey ones and the Academie has nothing to do with Lyrenzia. This contract was formed long before Lyrenzia was ever thought about. It is just one of the contracts, which are overseen by Lyrencia.

Adano Eles

Knight of the Grey Rose
Student of the Khana Len; Apprentice of the Great Temple of the Five and Eleven

Auch die Druiden des Waldes möchten ihre Freude über die Lyrenzia Vereinigung bekunden.
Wir freuen uns,das es doch noch zu einem Bündniss kommt,das sich für das Wohl und den Frieden in Trolls Bane und deren Einwohner bemüht.
Das Gesetz und die Gerechtigkeit zu achten steht all unseren Mitgliedern im Sinn und wir werden danach handeln.Sowie setzen wir uns mit aller Kraft für gerechte Preise ein.
Die Druiden des Waldes möchten sich hiermit zum Bündniss bekennen und bitten durch mich um Aufnahme in die Vereinigung.
Wir würden uns über eine positive Nachricht sehr freuen.


gez.

Dhalsim


Master Druid
Mitglied der "Druiden des Waldes"

Thereadore wrote:Dyluck, you are the only one who can't decide who the people are. You are the only one who has a problem with it. I do not sssee anyone elssse complaining.

I'm sorry once again Thereadore, but your argumentation is complete grogshit. If you know who the people are, why don't you answer my questions? Why can't you give me a number?

You only talk, but in the end you can't legitimately figure out who the people are.

Thereadore wrote:The unwritten law issss you do not ussse magic in town unlessss it isss to defend yourssself when sssomeone isss attacking you or in town attacksss.

Who gave you the right to decide that? Are you the one who decides what the laws are now? How can you proove that is the unwritten law? I'm sorry but are you really so blind that you cannot see the problem with "the people" and "knowing what is the unwritten laws" even after all those examples I gave?


To Ellaron, I think you have either not read what I wrote carefully or failed to comprehend the point and the tone of my words, so I think you should think about them again carefully.

Ellarion wrote:My problem is not with the fact that the laws need to be written but that you have set yourselves up to write them and change them at your whim.

Does that mean you have a problem with every other citizen of Troll's Bane? Because everyday each person is making and upholding their own laws at their own whim. Now you think that it's an injustice just because a group of people make and uphold the same laws and make it known to the public? Yet you don't have a problem with each and every person making and upholding different laws every day?

You have answered your own question. Because you couldn't discover who the people were you created your own. But you didn't stop there. Anyone who is not a member still has to follow your laws or else. Yes, with some variation your laws are the 'unwritten' ones of old, though you admit to not being able to prove what they were, but you have also given yourselves the power to change things to your liking.

Once again, how is this different from any other person? When you see someone brutally killing another person, do you stop to ask the killer whether he follows your same laws before you decide whether you have the right to stop him from kiling someone? When you first stepped into Troll's Bane and certain laws of life began to add to your beliefs, did you not give yourself the power to change the laws that you believe?

You made, changed, and upheld, what you believed was the law, just as much as any other person did, just as we are doing now.

If you think this is a tyranny, then every person has already been living by their own tyranny for ages.

A castle was built and a secret society formed which then declared itself rulers of Trollsbane.

This never happened. If this were true, then the only difference is that now 7 guilds declared themselves the rulers of Troll's Bane and live by common rule, instead of each citizen of Troll's Bane declaring themself the ruler of Troll's Bane and living by different rules.

Any guilds, even if they are not in Lyrenzia can form an alliance that can be recognized by Lyrenzia, and therefore made public.

I ask this foundation to help me get Xerate out of our town. He is a assian and kills for money I dont like seeing poor people getting killed for a bit of gold.

Deal with it, assassination is an occupation and there is nothing you can do to change that. This is not an issue of public detail, but rather some personal agenda you have against assassins.

((

Kirtar Toadfoot wrote:I ask this foundation to help me get Xerate out of our town. He is a assian and kills for money I dont like seeing poor people getting killed for a bit of gold.

Kirtar wants to get asians out of the town? ))

I have mixed feelings about this thing. How come no one ever heard about this before? It reminds me of some invading force... I don't know, but as long as they keep to themselves, no harm will be done.

I don't mind Xerake, he is fun to be around unless he is being payed to kill you.
Well back onto topic. I really like this idea except 1 part. You say that the towns people would enforce the laws, like a militia, but that is unorganized. People will go for a law breaker 1 at a time and sometimes in groups, but there is a chance that the law breaker will be attacked multiple times because of the lack of organization.
That is why you should make a police team, or possibly a brigade of people dedicated to serving TrollsBane.
They would be payed by a tax that you would onto the guilds that are allied with, such as the Rangers, Greyrose, Hobbiteers etc.
You could figure the tax would be as much as the number of people in the guild, so each person donates a bit not a lot maybe 1 ingot a week. This would motivate the people who are on the police squad to work hard and stay just.
This is of course just a suggestion.