Illarion.org

((@Kragmar:Thanks, you saved me from spending hours searching in my dictionary ))

picks up a piece of coal and hastily writes a message

yes, i would like to be a representitive, yet i have not much experience and i only speak one language, this is why i propose if you promote yourself you must be bilangual, or at least one of the race's representitives be, that way they could translate perhaps for another.

~~Avrillon of the gandelen~~

I do not know why we do not let the people of the races vote for who they want to represented by? We could have them vote and that will it will be fair.

Roke writes a message on a large piece of paper. Once finished, he puts a piece of dough on the back of it and applies it on top of the other papers

Well, I haven't kept up with this discussion but I have read every one of the posts, even when using an aide to help me translate between the two languages.

First of all, I think that it is more than an honor for the Rangers to be held so high in regard by Aragon, although we have not been very active lately we are planning to take action against this blackstone cult when, and if they cause harm to anyone, even the tiles on the library. Such action shall be carefully planned and carried out and the harshness of the action will be close to the suffering caused.

Secondly, I agree with Aragon that without the supports of all the honourable and old guilds this government will crumble. These guilds have been a mainstay for ages in Troll's Bane, some more than others and they have risen to challenges that some of the newer guilds have yet to face. This experience is very valuable to the running of the government. However, a government cannot function without the voice of the newer citizens who, with their enthusiasm and new ideas help make things better.

A little history about the attempts of government that I know of:

It seems like yesterday when a guild council was attempted to be formed. On the surface, the guild council had a great foundation and most, if not all the guilds had a voice during these planning meetings. It was even planned to have a couple representitives, elected by citizens NOT alligned with any guilds to represent those citizens on the council. There was one main problem with the way the council worked. This problem was that people are not all in town at the same time and have plans outside of being in town ((time zone differences)). For a government to represent all the people ((german and english)) this is one of the many things that will have to be overcome.

Fourthly, I would like to point something else. It seems to me that only a few of the 'veterans' if you will of Troll's Bane, those that have been here for a while are responding to this idea. These people, with their wisdom and their experience would be able to provide valuable input. I remember a time that when a new idea was proposed to better Troll's Bane a group of 10 to 15 people would provide input and suggestions, helping to better the idea and improve it. If these people would write their oppinions and suggestions it would be extremely helpful.

One more thing, some of the nominated peoples, from what I have seen have shady pasts. I am not going to name any names but a lot of the veterans of Troll's Bane would not really listen to these people because of their shady pasts. I believe that the ones nominated should be fairly well known and well-liked by most people, young and old. For example, would Faramir make a good person? Of course not, especially since he attacked a couple people after he was revived from his floating self.

Thank you to all, and good luck with the government, if these problems can be overcome and if it gets support from people of Troll's Bane who have lived here for just a little time, or a whole lot of time.[/i]

picks up whats left of his coal, and scribbles something else

i never said we couldnt bumbol. as for the guilds, hmm, perhaps there could be a representitive of each guild? for the most part all of the guilds represent their own trade,they also represent their guild members fairly well since they have the same ideas to be in the guild in the first place.Tis but a suggestion.I find the racial election seems too improbable((due to the time zone barrier)) and this way we get a range of ideas, not just races.

drops the spec of coal on the ground and walks off

((what about two germen representatives of a race and two english ones?))

picks up a chunk of burnt cake and writes something

((that wouldnt represent everyone, basically two governments at two times, hence different laws at different times)) please explain your ideas bumbol and why you think they could work.

walks away with a few freshly baked pies

Dear Roke,

It is a pleasure to hear from you again. I remember well the old days, trying to set up the guild council.
I agree with your wise words.

Let me add some more suggestions to your words.
Another reason, why the guild council of the former days didn't work, was that everybody wanted to be in it and everybody wanted to have the right to make descisions.

But as we know and have learned from the failed guild council, it is impossible, that a large group of people coming together and make decisions. As more people will be in a council as difficultier will it be, to meet and to discuss and to form laws.

Therefore a council have to be a small group of representatives. I think of five to maximal ten people.
Thinking of different groups in town, it may be, that not each single group or guild with few members can get a representative. Therefore it is usefull, that the representatives are trustworthy and honourable, so that groups or guilds, who have not an own representative can trust the council and can follow the decisions without beeing offended by having not their own represetative.

This is in my view the difficiel thing. Having a workable and small council and also being accepted from those, who have not their own man in it.

Another word to those, who suggest themselves for representatives. I don't think, that suggesting themself is a sign of a good reputation. It would be much better, if others suggest someone, who is trustworthy.

Aragon ben Galwan
Earl and Templar of the Grey Rose
Priest of Malachin

Actually, I don't think the fact that all the different representitives couldn't meet face-to-face was really a main problem. It only appeared to be so because that seemed to be the simplest explanation and face-to-face meetings were overrated. If the method of how things would be done was better thought out and better structured, face-to-face meetings wouldn't even be neccessary (and will never be an effective ways to get things done anyways). But we didn't actually have a good enough foundation in terms of the structure and planning to make it work, partly because we relied on a certain madman to do most of the planning which eventually accumulated to nothing, instead of organizing it ourselves. We had the neccessary people who were wise enough and would be accepted by the masses, but they were not politicians and did not yet fully understood how it would need to be done. Understanding how to start and maintain a successful government in Troll's Bane is a difficult, long, and complex task to achieve and unfortunately there are not many who truly understand this town enough to know how to do it.


Anyone who thinks that a government can be created using a form of mass election is far from understanding what it takes to create a government in Troll's Bane. It will never be plausible to use mass elections because we have no way of knowing who and how many people are legitimate citizens of Troll's Bane, so fake votes would be all too easy to create.

Most of you want to create a government, and realize that you need to gain the support and acceptance from a wide range of the population in order to gain the necessary legitamacy. But most of you are trying to figure out a way to gain acceptance from either this wide range of people all at the same time or start from the wrong place, and that's one of the places where you fail. It is much easier to start getting things done and gain the support of smaller amounts of people at a time. But at the same time, it's no use if those who support you don't have enough respect or inspire confidence in more others to join you.

One of the advantage of guilds is that the representitive of each guild already inherently has the legitimacy and support of a certain group of people, shortening the process dramatically. Instead of having fifty voices, it can become melded into only five voices that represent ten each. With only individuals, there is no effective way to know that they represent any number of voices if any. It is much easier to set a selective critera for guilds than it is for individuals. Guilds also have the advantage of being able to replace its representitive more quickly than any single individual could be if anything should ever happen to them.

However, there is no short answer or set system to define what it takes to create and maintain a government. More importantly is how to gain enough acceptance and legitimacy, and the reputation of the people who organize it can make a huge difference. Also keep in mind that the best way to get from point A to point B isn't always a straight line.

Roke sticks a short note to the shop wall...

Is it just me or are the only people who are writing responses to the notes and reading the long notes from the veteran citizens are the veteran citizens? Once again, without even a small bit of endorsement from the veteran citizens, even a few respected people would be fine and it would help if it appeared that you would read our writings.

I agree with you Dyluck, it would be nearly impossible to organize a meeting with all the people coming, there would be always someone missing and that is hardly a efficent way of working, perhaps we could come up with a better solution?

Yes, the guilds seem to be the only solution reasonable enough to form a governement that would make some sense.

picks up an onion and tries to write with it, then burns a peice of cake and writes:

i am not a veteran citizen, depending on how you define it, but i do take part in most of the activities in trollsbane whether it be a festival or a battle. this really is a tough decision making laws. yes votes could easily be duplicated.thinks well since most of the guilds are comprised of good citizens, we could always give the guilds the power, and only allow those trustworthy and known to us vote as well.

I myself support Dyluck's idea, his argumentation is flawless.

I believe a second try at the 'guild council' would succeed. Previously the guild council either wasn't communicating well enough, or it had no purpose. During its two months or so there was rarely any useful discussion. Luckily this council has a more obvious purpose then before.

You can not please everyone at once. That is why "organized anarchy" is the only way. Think about it. Here is my idea for Troll's Bane:

A classless society with no exploitation. No state machine used by one section of the population to oppress another section. No need for professional armies or police forces. No use of production for profit or exchange. Society runs in accord with the principle: From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.

What do you think?

Roke shudders when he reads the last message

Paul Laffing? I , I, th... thou... thought you w...we.were dead.

Paul Laffing, this is exactly what we have now. A society of self justice. A society where everyone kills whoever did something wrong to him.
A society of uncontrolled blood thirsty so-called protectors of peace and justice. Right now Troll's Bane has the honor to share a system with the criminal swamps which the Freefolk calls their homes.

What we really need are clear rules which everyone has to obey or face consequences. This is the only way we will finally achieve something like peace and justice in Troll's Bane.

I guess my idea would never work unless every single criminal is gotten rid of. Maybe sometime in the future i will bring this up again. And Roke, i hear that Bloodhearte ressurected me, but i have no way if being sure.

Getting rid of all criminals is unreachable utopy, there will always be those who are willing to do something bad to others to gain something for themselves.

In this current state of anarchy, all power is the power of stronger over the weak, as already stated - Often violent and ruthless to those who cannot defend themselves, or are burdened by age.

I admit that even the Guild council, would not be able to rid all the criminals, but it would be certainly more efficent way to deal with them and finally show them that certain things are not accepted or tolerated.

After some contemplation Elaralith posts her thoughts:

Greetings,
I tend to agree that the only successful government for Trollsbane would be a Council of the main guilds of illarion...Perhaps to achieve this objective a separate guild could be set up "The Guild Council". A ruling body in my opinion would be highly beneficial to Trollsbane as it would be make Justice a more certain thing that is carried out. I pray that Elara's wisdom will rest upon the proceedings for this government if ever it rises.
Elara bless,
~Elaralith, Priestess of Elara~

Elaralith walks away and silently decides to watch the outcome of this all.

takes up a piece of coal with a nice tip

hmm yes but, im thinking a council composed of only the main guilds represents general ideas, but, i think there could be a lower council with a bigger amount of people, but more ideas to contribute. the lower council could have a set meeting and if a guild cannot make it, they must deal with it. just a thought.also, i am wondering about the law making process, will a certain percentage of the council members have to vote yes or will all of the members have to vote yes to pass it. i think it should be all. and all cercomstances be taken to action. i dont want this to turn into an oligarchy, that would be horrible. ((oligarchy were the rich and popular rule)) i am concerned that this might also be a popularity contest. thats why i say the founding member of each guild be the council member, they formed the basis for the guild and the ideas from which their guild was built.

Well, I'm not sure an Oligarchy is really so bad. If we try to start a government that is too hard to organize and maintain, then it will never succeed. Why not just create an Oligarchy of responsible people and then we can try to change it over time into a democracy. An oligarchy is efficient and can easily be the base for improvement. Most importantly, it's easy to set up and maintain. Even though I'm new to this town, and wasn't around when the old guild council was attempted, and I'm not a member of any major guild, I say go for a revised attempt at the guild council. Some sort of government is needed, and it has the best chance of succeeding.

Kragmar

Listen, I came into this conversation a little too late so I havent had all the details. So what I am about to say may have already been said so please dont mind my waste of air. But I was just thinking that the representatives should be nominated and then voted on. I dont think you should just raise you hand and then say your running. Thank you for listening to my maybe not so important waste of air.

Gerard Hugh

It will never be plausible to use mass elections because we have no way of knowing who and how many people are legitimate citizens of Troll's Bane, so fake votes would be all too easy to create.

Additionally, these votings will be ineffective, for above said reasons.

looks at all the withering posts, sticks a new one up

i see this topic seems to have died out, but, i feel that we should keep deliberating as there are people roaming the town serving as self appointed town patrol of some sort. i have seen one of these causing trouble. I do think this council or whatever you wish to call it could be done with further discussion,input,and planning. I am sure we can find a way that fits everyones thoughts, not neccesarilly their agenda.

~~avrillon~~

Avrillion, I assume you were talking about me. And if you remember Xerake was making fun of my race and the patrol officers. he got was he deserved. he wouldn't take it back.

also gegen einen König wäre ich eigendlich nicht nur dann wäre es noch langweiliger in Trolls Bane.

This is exactly why a government is needed, to stop self-named people, such as patrol officers like Bumbol who take the law into their own hands. I thought hobbits were a peaceful people, who enjoyed to eat and drink but Bumbol does not represent this image of a hobbit, rather an orc or maybe a dwarf. Just because someone says something to a hobbit does not mean that a hobbit would have to kill them...

Such a government would hopefully be able to protect citizens and bring peace to these lands.

I doubt the government could protect the citizens of Illarion. Don't get me wrong I think the idea is good, yet is no more than a dream that can not be realised. Just how would the government set about protecting the peoples? Also there is a thin line between protecting and controlling.

((I stongly dislike writing ooc here, I apologise. However, just because someone acts differently than you would like them to doesnt mean they arent roleplaying properly.))