Illarion.org

People seem to confuse many things in this topic, so let me clear a few things up.

The state we had before was a broken one. The pathfinding was simply broken. It was not working. A broken system is never good. Because that means that the system works in away we have no controll over.

What people mostly seem not to know: What pathfinding actually means. It is simple: Finding a working path from the current position to an other given position. In case of the monsters: From the monsters' position to the character.

What is a good pathfinding system? When it calculates the way correctly and as efficiently as possible.
What is a bad pathfining system? It is uneffecient or not working at all.

The current pathfinding is working absolutely great. It does what it is supposed to do.

Yet, people complain. But what is the source of this? Certainly not that the path calculation is working good. Complaining about this would be like complaining that your calculator tells you that 3 + 3 is equal to 6.

Many people have pointed the things out but worngly blamed the pathfinding for that or said "pathfinding is bad because it hast x or y or there is too much a". The pathfinding does not make monsters attack players. The pathfinding calculates only the way as soon as the target is set and we need a way to it.

Basically, there are two things which cause the current state to be unpleasant to some (while the whole picture is better than before in my eyes):
- the spawns needs adjustment. They were created under the impression of a broken pathfinding
- we need a proper AI that allows us to distinguish between certain behaviours

That has been a acknowledged and it will be worked on both. But all of that has nothing to do with the pathfinding as such.

Jupiter wrote:People seem to confuse many things in this topic, so let me clear a few things up.

The state we had before was a broken one. The pathfinding was simply broken. It was not working. A broken system is never good. Because that means that the system works in away we have no controll over.

What people mostly seem not to know: What pathfinding actually means. It is simple: Finding a working path from the current position to an other given position. In case of the monsters: From the monsters' position to the character.

What is a good pathfinding system? When it calculates the way correctly and as efficiently as possible.
What is a bad pathfining system? It is uneffecient or not working at all.

The current pathfinding is working absolutely great. It does what it is supposed to do.

Yet, people complain. But what is the source of this? Certainly not that the path calculation is working good. Complaining about this would be like complaining that your calculator tells you that 3 + 3 is equal to 6.

Many people have pointed the things out but worngly blamed the pathfinding for that or said "pathfinding is bad because it hast x or y or there is too much a". The pathfinding does not make monsters attack players. The pathfinding calculates only the way as soon as the target is set and we need a way to it.

Basically, there are two things which cause the current state to be unpleasant to some (while the whole picture is better than before in my eyes):
- the spawns needs adjustment. They were created under the impression of a broken pathfinding
- we need a proper AI that allows us to distinguish between certain behaviours

That has been a acknowledged and it will be worked on both. But all of that has nothing to do with the pathfinding as such.

The area in which the calculation activates has to do with the pathfinding.
People criticized that too so that really has to do with it.

Falyame wrote:Uhm, im new here but here are my cents to this topic:
.......
And I have 3 questions:
-What is the reason to change the monsters reactions? (To make the game more alive?)
- How does the respawn work? (Do the monsters respawn with no end so if the amount of monster kills is lower than the respawn rate the monsters adds up themselves? )
- And how does the respawn work at the "Hanfschlinge"?(Is there a respawn area for the monsters? I just see these big dinosaurs, skelletons etc. or did someone just lure them to the "Hanfschlinge"?)

First one did Jupiter answered i think.
Second one : Just as i think it works from experience fighting monsters: There are fix areas where monsters spawn and if they get killed they respawn at that position so if they are lured to another place or move there by themselves and they get killed they will respawn at their fix area.

Third one: As i know they are lured there, dinosaurs from the area infront of the Glimmer mine and skeletons and stuff from the cave after the bridge at the hempties. After a server restart there are no monsters at the hempties


Agree to the things Jupiter mentioned that need to be worked on, but i still think it would have been better to fix all three things at once (Pathfinding, Spawn rate and AI), cause now its just a struggle to be outside of the towns and takes out, at least for me a lot of fun of the game. And yes i didnt knew the old pathfinding was broken and it works really good now, maybe too good for the current state.

Cheers PO Ranwyln

Tinuva Geogroda wrote:The area in which the calculation activates has to do with the pathfinding.
People criticized that too so that really has to do with it.

It is an arbitrary value. The AI needs to define the proper values.

The monsters were slowed? A spider chased me from Reban's grove all the way to the temple of the five before I was able to lose it.

I think from now we should let the devs rebalance the spawns and the monsters, like I said before its not much different from the old system where monsters would chase you all through the map, we gave our ideas on how and what to rebalance so let them decide instead of taking their time responding to complaints here. In the mean time come up with ideas for other things... like gem effects

No but really Proposals are meant for ideas, and discussion of those ideas, not to discount other's or to complain. Questions and other things should be for other forums. Im not criticizing anyone but just trying to help out the devs in that they need to be able to read the proposals for ideas not to hear a ton of... well whatever is going on here.

To beat a dead horse.

The pathfinding system works awesome! The problem is not with the pathfinding of the monsters. The monsters would, in the past, sit and stare at a character 2 spaces away or randomly attack or retreat.

The only complaint I have is that the monsters move so fast it is nearly impossible to outrun them (from my experience).

Lord Arcia wrote:The only complaint I have is that the monsters move so fast it is nearly impossible to outrun them (from my experience).

Agreed. This is my only problem now as well.

I would actually like to see different monsters responding differently. They shouldn't all jump up and chase at a person exactly the same way. Should a slime react the same as a dragon? (I'm guessing Uffe would know more about slimes than me.) I think a dog would be more aggressive than a slime. But even among the dogs, some should be more aggressive than others. Some are young and some are not. Some are "aggressive" and some are not. But thinking on this, some larger animals would be heavier and slower, a bear would be slower than a dog. (wouldn't it, I mean, I haven't done the research, just thinking weight-wise, I don't know about their muscles and things like that.)

Is it possible to have... how to word this? Different ranges among similar animals to notice us walking through? A more aggressive animal would see us further out and chase a little further, protecting its area. A younger one would have a smaller range and wouldn't chase as far. (I'm intentionally avoiding speed here because we've had issues with that. )

I do still like the "up the tree" idea, however, I've been giving it some thought and have wondered how long someone might be stranded up that tree once they are surrounded. Would animals lose their lock and wander away? This could take some time, but still be fun RP-wise. I know a few elves that like to sleep in trees. It would also encourage characters to always carry bow and arrows if we could use them from the tree. Otherwise, might be a long wait.

Yes, the pathfinding was broken, it didn't work at all. No monster chased or even followed. Was bad and now it is working dandy-fine!. Oh, the good old days when we would find golems in town and red skeletons, often placed there on purpose (you know who you are!). Have faith in our development crew and patience!

Uhuru wrote:I do still like the "up the tree" idea,

That will certainly not come. Our graphics are simply not meant to be used in this way, resulting in something which looks just horrible. We are trying to improve the game, therefor such an ugliness is nothing that will make it into the game.

On differnt behaviorus: Yes, there will be different kinds of how monster will react.

Jupiter wrote:

Uhuru wrote:I do still like the "up the tree" idea,

That will certainly not come. Our graphics are simply not meant to be used in this way, resulting in something which looks just horrible. We are trying to improve the game, therefor such an ugliness is nothing that will make it into the game.

On differnt behaviorus: Yes, there will be different kinds of how monster will react.

No problem, and thanks!

how about a watch-tower model resting places. this would use walls + battlements + ladder.

something similar but smaller to the slave market(i thinks thats what that place is called not sure) in cadomyr would do too. a smaller 3-4 tiles place to stand and rest.

* may be the new pathfinding works now correct
but
1) a non fighter char. cant work outside the towns
(( visiting the elstree wood (herb gathering / fairies) is a SUIZID task ))

The last change makes surviving much easier.
I have to say, I didn't belive in the simply reducing of the speed but it seems working.

Thank you!

GolfLima wrote:* may be the new pathfinding works now correct
but
1) a non fighter char. cant work outside the towns
(( visiting the elstree wood (herb gathering / fairies) is a SUIZID task ))

I agree the wilderness areas are off limits to non combatant characters and cannot be role played in at all now.

Ufedhin wrote:

GolfLima wrote:* may be the new pathfinding works now correct
but
1) a non fighter char. cant work outside the towns
(( visiting the elstree wood (herb gathering / fairies) is a SUIZID task ))

I agree the wilderness areas are off limits to non combatant characters and cannot be role played in at all now.

My char has level 90 armor and ~100 combat skills and dies trying to walk southwest of necktie

Please have patience while the development team makes some adjustments. I believe some adjustments may be in the works if we just wait for them.

Fooser wrote:My char has level 90 armor and ~100 combat skills and dies trying to walk southwest of necktie

as already mentoined thats not just Problem of the pathfinding system. Its also known that we have to manny monsters on the map, the spawns will be adjusted as soon as possible (=not before the pathfinding works, otherwise it have no real use)

Another suggestion:
A global adjustment of all armour types if possible would be very good; Keep in mind that multiple weapon types would be attacking at the same time .

The new Pathfinding is good and fine, but non fighter characters have now early no chance if they wanna go further out of town.

I dont know if it is possible on the developer side, but have ou ever though about a particular radius,like fom where the monsters aggro a player to the point they diaggro it?...I will write it on german again, maybe it is clearer that way.


Ich finde das neue system gut und schön, wenngleich nicht-Kämpfer-Charaktere kaum eine Chance haben, die Städte in weiterem Radius zu verlassen. Kräutersuchen wird so z.B. für einen einzelnen Spieler nahezu unmöglich. Für Anfänger ist das ein Grund, warum sie wieder aufhören. Kaum steht man ein, zwei Sekunden ist man von Monstern umringt und wer hat schon Lust zu sterben?

Ich weiß nicht, ob es von der Entwicklerseite her möglich ist oder ob das zu viel Aufwand benötigt, aber eine mögliche Lösung wäre, einen gewissen Radius einzuführen (z.B. 50 Schritte zu dem Zeitpunkt indem das Monster den Spieler attackiert). Nachdem dieser Spieler diesen Radius verlassen hat, kehrt das Monster einfach zu seinem ursprünglichen Platz zurück (z.B. dem Platz, bevor es den Spieler attackierte). der Spieler ist danach für ein paar Sekunden "unangreifbar" für dieses Monster. So wäre es Nicht-Kämpfern und Neulingen möglich, zu werschwinden, ohne weiteres an den Geschwindigkeitswerten der Monster zu machen.

much better with the changes that where made

now also non fighters have a chance to do something outside the towns
Thanks.

Pathfinding is close to perfect now, thank you, vilarion and all others who helped!

After this latests update wow! thank you dev's, not only do we have a world we can move in and roleplay (not teaming with rabid horrors), but also we have creatures that act smart, different speeds in the chase and a chance for a slow old dwarf to avoid even the fastest if hes aware and keeps a good look out for ambushers.It provides the adrenalin of the chase,with enough space to do your thing in the wilds. Thanks very much ,its very enjoyable .

It's better now

also reduce slimes in glittering cave plz

Please notice the number of dogs around Wonderland... Uhuru and Evie nearly didn't make it through there alive, just running past the area. Dogs! What a madhouse. I've never seen so many dogs there before ever. Had to use four healing potions to keep from floating. Again... just dogs. But soooo many of them.

However, I do want to say, I agree with the others, the changes are fantastic. Some packs of beasts don't even notice you unless you run right through the middle of them. And me, in the states, can even outrun most! Well, all I've dared find so far.

Thanks Devs!

@Fooser: If I remember correctly, the glittering cave is on the sourface. That means the amount fo slimes has been reduced there. Could be that there are still to many, but those are singular problems. For those it is best to open a request in mantis.

@Uhuru: That is probably a result of the reduced radius of spawns. They are more dense now. The wonderland thingy in an an rea close to teh sea and on islands. Both circumstances reinforce that effect. Anyway, the wonderland "quest" should haven any monsters at all around it now that monsters aren't idiots anymore - or the quest get deactivated. As in the case above, a mantis request would pe appropriate.

I correct myself. There was clearly a bug in the wonderland area. I hope I have fixed it. We'll wait and see.

Jupiter wrote:@Fooser: If I remember correctly, the glittering cave is on the sourface. That means the amount fo slimes has been reduced there. Could be that there are still to many, but those are singular problems. For those it is best to open a request in mantis.

I've been in there a lot and it seems like the same amount. Also, I requested the number of them be reduced on mantis like a year ago

The amount can be close to the original. The changes effects mostly monsters of high numbers in a spawn. And we could only go by monster id. We have a lot of slime in the glittering cave, but a lot of different types of slime. Basically: If there have been 3 monsters of the same type, there are just 2 now.

Anyway, I will look for your task and take care of it. I will either reduce the amount or increase the respawn time.

Jupiter wrote:I correct myself. There was clearly a bug in the wonderland area. I hope I have fixed it. We'll wait and see.

Looks so much better! Didn't get mobbed by 100 dogs this time! (yes, nearly 100, brought home close to that many fur, was all Uhuru could carry)

Thanks Jupiter, You ROCK!